I have a Marshall 9100
- Stereo power amp / 50 watts per channel
- Two 5881 valves per channel

From what I understand it's largely the pre-amp section that makes an amplifier sound like a Fender / Marshall etc, more than the power amp section, especially at low to medium volumes. Would that be correct?

Therefore as long as a power amp is not turned up to high levels that induce power amp saturation, there shouldn't be a lot of difference between various power amplifiers...

Most grateful for your comments...

It's everything. The preamp, power amp, transformer, cabinet, speaker, speaker age etc.

For example you buy a 60's fender and replace the speakers, it'll be completely different. A similar era Marshall with a new transformer, different. 6L6's vs EL84's, different.

I wouldn't worry. Just try what you have and see how it sounds to you. But yes it is going to have a profound effect, but it might not be the most important one in context.

J

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www.jackruston.com

I agree that you have to take the amplifier/speaker/guitar as a whole to define a "tone" (and do not forget "The Hands"!) but yes Jay, the output valves comes a long way down in the list in importance.
Then too people claim results for a valve swop but do not (or are not qualified to)consider other factors. For instance the 6L6 is a good swop for the EL34 and biases up about the same but it has half the sensitivity* of the 34. This means that for any desired volume level the PI and pre amp sections of the amp are working twice as hard. Small wonder then that things sound different!

Jay, have you had that stereo 50 checked out ever? If it is the chassis I think it is the bias circuitry is of suspect quality and I had one fail and take out the mains transformer!

*gm =5 as against 11 for the EL34.

Dave.

Agree with the above posts, but also (question for Dave here) how much does the design of the amp affect this? Dave - did you get the PM I sent you a week or so back btw?

Reason I ask is that my little 7w amp is a master volume only creature that I love. I am led to believe that the benefit of amps like this is that you can get the power amp valve(s) working nicely and get distortion going at the back end as well as the front..... I can't be sure where all the little harmonic fizzes and farts come from in this thing but it's great.

When I first bought it, I lived with it for a bit then swapped out the power amp valve for a posher one. Certainly changed the tone for the better though I can't say if that's because the old one was getting tired (it was at least 3rd hand so I've no idea of the hours it's put in) or because of the snake oil I've breathed in or whether it's genuinely better..... Liked it before, like it better now.

I recently swapped the preamp valve and again a difference but not 'Fender twin to Mesa Boogie rectum frier' change - small, subtle but positive which is what I was hoping for and expecting.

Biggest difference in a given amp (besides the player and guitar used) is what cab you put it through IMO.... Everyone talks of the sound of a particular amp but little hype is given to the speakers used and what they are in.

Gary

i think people woefully underestimate how much tone is in the fingers....



i'd worry far more about mastering that than any dicking about with any other item....

i still sound like "me" given almost any guitar , and any amp , and any number of pedals.






for reference, like him or not, as an example, google joe satriani playing a 99 dollar guitar in someone's kitchen.



it still sounds like Satch. whether or not you like him is irrelevant, it's about the touch, the command of the instrument, and what you do with it.



same applied to Gary Moore, you could tell it was him, within about 5 notes....

same applies to messrs Young, Rossi, Blackmore , Gilmour, Gallagher, King(s), Claptout, etc etc etc



when people concentrate solely on external kit issues, or technique at the expense of feel and soul, then they stop being guitarists and just become noise pollution IMHO


(no intent to offend anyone, and no direction that comment is aimed in specifically, it is merely a statement of generality. )

Well that's certainly true and it's a good point. But I do feel that on internet forums it gets sort of 'impossible' to answer any question if you get into all that stuff. Both in the scenarios you're presented with on forums and those at work, the player can't usually be changed. So if someone asks 'What amp should I use?' we have to comment assuming parity regarding the playing. If the playing remains the same, what happens if I change X Y or Z? Otherwise the variables become even more intangible than usual.

But regardless we're here to talk about recording for the most part. And with recording the amp and guitar are hugely important. A lot more important that the mic, pre or compressor or whatever. I work with great players and poor ones alike. And in every case we find ourselves constantly making decisions regarding amps, guitars, speakers, pedals etc etc. It is important and it makes a huge difference.

J

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www.jackruston.com

note that this answer takes in to account the OP's other current posts regarding power tubes....


for the most part, in the vast majority of cases, the front end, in terms of the player, the guitar, the pre amp, and any pedals, make more immediately obvious superficial difference than a specific pair of power tubes in an otherwise common design, and indeed, the power stage has , especially if not being driven hard, less obvious impact on the overall sound,

that is NOT to say it is irrelevant, nor not worth bothering about, simply that it is less immediately obvious in many cases.


case in point ,

keeping things anonymous....

i recently posted elsewhere , a rough track , a demo recording for a project in which i have been deliberately taking a different approach to my "sound" especially for solos, going for a more rough and ready vibe, using a more directly on axis close mic , on a 10 inch driver, and a less smooth amp sound.... not my usual edge mic'ing approach on an already smooth sound.,... (for my own lead playing)

and mucking about with phase relationships between multiple mic's

generally shaking things up, looking for something new and different for myself..... rather than sticking with the more comfortable historic solutions.



the song contained 2 solos by 2 different guitarists, listeners who know me, listening online, instantly picked which one was me....


i acknowledge that you have very valid points about the use of forums , and the unchangeable nature of many players....


i think i'm just suffering post xmas grumpy git blues...

I have been reading about guitar amplifier sound for the best part of 4 years now in some 3 forums mainly (one of which ceased to exist then was re-born!) and have come to certain conclusions regarding the nature of the questions and what they ask and more importantly what they often DON’T ask!
The poster may have many hats in the air such as….
How can I record a “Brian May” sound? The poster knows very well surely what BM uses for an amp (or 12!) but is not prepared to pay for an AC30, (even one!) loaded with Blues....Or..
How can I record “BloodyBlat Depleted Pu *hit Heavymetal “ sound but not wake the baby in our one room flat?
The “hands” thing: Yes, I believe it is a factor. Even if Clapton stepped off stage and handed you his guitar AND you were a very good guitarist you would not make his sound. Sure, if you had spent years trying to emulate the man, maybe in a very dedicated tribute band then, like Elvis impersonators you might get close, but you would have to work hard at it as indeed you would to get Becks’ tone ect.....Almost by definition players who know little about amps and how to get a good sound are not yet very good players? (I BTW can manage a few chords and a bit of SOTW!)
For the most part amps are the simplest part and the most difficult at the same time! Simple in that they tend to break into 3 camps. Fender, really clean and loud and Marshall cleanish but dirty and loud. Vox more dirty and loud but different from the other two! Virtually everything else, Mesa, Peavey, Blackstar are somewhere in this group but many are much more versatile than the old “FMV” stalwarts. Heavy Metal is a bit of an oddity? They seem to go for very cold biased preamps and are happy with sstate power amps in many cases.
Difficult because the bias point of just one triode stage can result in a “warm” full jazz tone with mostly 2nd harmonics , go a volt or 2 more negative and you are into harsher odd harmonics and a more cutting “rock” tone. And that is just ONE stage! Multiply that out to the minimum of 3 stages in most preamps, tone stack variants, interstage networks and you have an almost infinite tone pallet and we haven’t even mentioned output valves, traffs and speakers yet!
Bottom line. You can’t do it cheap and you can’t do it quietly, not really but you can make a fair job and get an acceptable sound with a bit of practice.
Rant over.
Dave.

That's very true Dave. There's definitely a refusal to accept that something can't be done silently, cheaply, in a box room etc etc. And I admire persistence and determination, but at the same time it can get frustrating when people ask how a certain sound is achieved but won't accept the answer. Bands can be the same way...Can you mix our record so that it sounds like Taking Back Sunday? Well how did you record it? Steven Slate Drums and Amplitube. No. Certain sounds are achieved a certain way and the details of that matter.

J

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www.jackruston.com

on an aside, Dave have you ever been treated to a crack at playing with Peavey's Revalver??? a bit of very cool software (not originally developed by peavey) which has an in depth editing mode for the amp models, where you can play with all sorts of things, like bias, valve type, and so on....


very cool way of "modelling" a very bespoke amp tone..... without having to actually build it out of expensive bits....

Quote Idris Y Draig:

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on an aside, Dave have you ever been treated to a crack at playing with Peavey's Revalver??? a bit of very cool software (not originally developed by peavey) which has an in depth editing mode for the amp models, where you can play with all sorts of things, like bias, valve type, and so on....


very cool way of "modelling" a very bespoke amp tone..... without having to actually build it out of expensive bits....

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No, not seen that I, very interesting. I have some "bits" anyway and if I can get my son interested I am going to build a pre amp testbed where I can tweak almost every component. The result will play thru' a 100W MOSFET and/ or a 60W EL34 PA (which is loosely based on the Ampeg SVT).
But! All down to Son. I can't play for **** and in any case am deaf!

Dave.