When I'm in 'village hall' mode I get all sorts of stuff to deal with in PA. Most of it's a question of working out how to mic it, but sometimes I get performers with home keyboards that have no outputs other than the built-in speakers or the headphone socket. I seem to get distortion whatever I use to connect the phones socket to the PA. What's the best chance of getting a reasonably clean signal that doesn't distort too badly? Last time I had this happen I put it through a DI with attenuation but it didn't help.

Hi tacitus!

I, too, get asked to "connect up" all sorts of stuff that doesn't have line outputs. My preferred fallback is to take a feed from the headphone out - having first tried it with a set of cans to ensure they haven't got the volume up so high that it's distorting before it leaves the keyboard. I then issue a 'don't touch' warning about the volume control. Obviously they HAVE to have a monitor in that situation.

Although this is probably about three/four times a year for me I don't recall distortion problems in the recent (4-5 years) past. I wonder if you might be using a L/R combiner or adapter before the signal goes into the DI? When faced with this scenario I now use a stereo DI and centre-pan the channels on the desk. Of course it does mean using an extra channel, but should prevent cross-channel distortion that can occur when using adapters. I've tended to be a bit casual about this when wanting to combine stereo line outs from CD/MP3 players etc. but have always been more careful when using headphone outs.

If you don't want to take-up two desk channels then the other option is to get one of these (or equivalent):

Line Combiner

which would go in upstream of the DI. I'm about to get one of these.

Of course, you may already be using a stero Di or combiner in which case ignore all this. But the distortion aspect then leaves me puzzled.

HTH. Mike

Hi, MIke,

I've only been taking one side of the headphone signal, figuring the loss of one side is not too huge a problem at the level of sophistication we're working at here. But it's just occurred to me as I read your post that I haven't exercised any control over the keyboard's volume control and I bet that's why I get otherwise unexplained distortion. Came to me in a blinding flash - just needed another brain to look it over.

I would have taken each side through a separate channel on the desk if I'd thought it was worth it. I am mildy surprised at the amount of distortion I got last time this happened but maybe the keyboard was a bit dodgy. It certainly looked well-used.

As it happens, I will have access to a similar keyboard next week so I'll experiment a bit. Thanks for your input on this.

I haven't noticed distortion myself taking a feed off the headphone out but I agree with Mike to get them not to adjust volume and I like Mike's idea of checking the headphone out with, well, headphones first!

I have also taken the feral approach of simply throwing a condenser mic over the speaker - reproducing what it is, in all its glory - a cheap keyboard!

Bob

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www.bickerton.co.nz

I did consider miking the speaker, Bob, but in this case I pretty well knew they'd move around and mess it up. In fact, they'd done the dress rehearsal with guitar and I wasn't even expecting the keyboard. Good job my house is directly opposite the village hall!

Miking the speakers is my 'when all else fails' approach. I'll tape two fairly decent lavaliers to the two on-board speaker-grills - as they're often stereo keyboards - and then be pretty brutal with the desk EQ to get something approximating to a reasonable sound through the system. Ah the joys of operating in the shallow-end!

Quote tacitus:

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When I'm in 'village hall' mode I get all sorts of stuff to deal with in PA. Most of it's a question of working out how to mic it, but sometimes I get performers with home keyboards that have no outputs other than the built-in speakers or the headphone socket. I seem to get distortion whatever I use to connect the phones socket to the PA. What's the best chance of getting a reasonably clean signal that doesn't distort too badly? Last time I had this happen I put it through a DI with attenuation but it didn't help.

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You have to let the player PLAY his instrument! Maybe different patchs require different volume settings. If it's a theatre show (and this is amateur pantomime season) there'll certainly be different volume required between playing the overture and accompaning a singer. And these musical variations are a job for the musicians, not for the sound operator.

Also, don't forget that plugging to the headphone socket will probably defeat the internal speakers. That won't make the player happy, and will throw a lot more responsibility for monitoring onto YOUR shoulders.

The difficulty I always had, from the player point of view, is that ideally I'd have liked a piano. But often they don't exist in these places, so you have to get hold of whatever. Then the problem is dynamic range. Pianists will be used to the full dynamic of a piano, and won't get any velocity/pressure dynamics from these keyboards. Therefore they _will_ ride the volume knob, and often not allowing to do this will result in a poorer performance. So I'd think you'll need to build up the trust, understand if there is a range of dynamics etc.

I can imagine the headphone out circuit will clip/distort - but suspect the speakers will too. I'd be inclined to give them a line mixer, tell them to leave the volume knob of the keys alone, then let them tweak volume on an undistorted mixer signal - which can also be fed back for monitoring.

Just my view from the other side of the keys - but obviously a lot depends on who's performing and their general musicality!

Quote Matt_Moose:

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The difficulty I always had, from the player point of view, is that ideally I'd have liked a piano. But often they don't exist in these places, so you have to get hold of whatever.

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And, if you care at all about the result, that means bringing in your own keyboard, not borrowng a Casio!

When accompaning on steam piano, my foot spends a lot of time on the soft pedal. If I go electric, I find a volume pedal absolutely essential.

In this instance, we did have a piano, or at least a digital keyboard, but it was in the pit, not on stage where the act was. I mentioned earlier that I didn't even know about the keyboard until the first performance because previous rehearsals were done with a guitar and sounded fine like that. Original music too, so I couldn't possibly predict the keyboard's eventual appearance.

The keyboard player just put the keyboard on full and beat the sh*t out of it. He plugged into the jack socket on the back of the monitor we already had an XLR feed to, so performing issues and sensitivity to unfamiliar monitoring was his choice, not mine. I just wanted to get the keyboard not to sound so distorted and I put it through a DI for the subsequent performances with the agreement of the act as they would then get the monitor signal anyway.

I fully agree it was a cock-up from beginning to end, which is why I pointed out I was in 'village hall mode' - sort of implicit, isn't it? No proper rehearsals, no proper soundcheck and if I'd known how many of the acts in this variety show were going to need keys or the band to back them in some way I'd have had the band on stage anyway. The act we're talking about only wanted piano, as you thought, Matt, which I would have known if they'd bothered to do a sound check/rehearsal with all the gear they needed and could have arranged the piano to be there for them.

By the third performance, the stage manager had managed to plug the lead clearly labelled 'guitar' into the keyboard and vice versa, which provided a moment or three of comedy ...

But that's village shows for you. Considering we've only got a few hundred people in the village we have some striking talent. We're not very good at rehearsing, though!

And we raised well over £1,000 in three shows, so worth doing for that.

Quote Mike Stranks:

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I, too, get asked to "connect up" all sorts of stuff that doesn't have line outputs. My preferred fallback is to take a feed from the headphone out - having first tried it with a set of cans to ensure they haven't got the volume up so high that it's distorting before it leaves the keyboard.

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I have mentioned it before, but I will again here. If you do pull out of a headphone out, make sure you aren't trying to mix the two channels together via a 'joiner cable' or a miswired connection. You can, and in fact this is one instance where I often do, get distortion if I do so, or at the least you will get phasing depending on the patch. I keep insert cables on hand to split the headphone out into two channels for L/R and feed into a stereo DI and you get a much cleaner feed.

Seablade

But the good thing about Village Hall Mode (yes, I live opposite ours too and have been requested to "perform" for various lunches, events and whatevers) is that actually, the audience just appreciate the fact it's someone who's prepared to perform, almost regardless of what they sound like. Raising a grand proves the point really - good on you. It's just us "perfectionists" that cringe at the quality issues

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Hammond M162, XM1. Yahama CP70B, PF2000, P200, P50m, QY100. Roland RD1000, JV1010. Alesis SR16.

Quote seablade:

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Quote Mike Stranks:

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I, too, get asked to "connect up" all sorts of stuff that doesn't have line outputs. My preferred fallback is to take a feed from the headphone out - having first tried it with a set of cans to ensure they haven't got the volume up so high that it's distorting before it leaves the keyboard.

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I have mentioned it before, but I will again here. If you do pull out of a headphone out, make sure you aren't trying to mix the two channels together via a 'joiner cable' or a miswired connection. You can, and in fact this is one instance where I often do, get distortion if I do so, or at the least you will get phasing depending on the patch. I keep insert cables on hand to split the headphone out into two channels for L/R and feed into a stereo DI and you get a much cleaner feed.

Seablade

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Yup! Which is exactly what I said later in my post!

Quote Matt_Moose:

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But the good thing about Village Hall Mode (yes, I live opposite ours too and have been requested to "perform" for various lunches, events and whatevers) is that actually, the audience just appreciate the fact it's someone who's prepared to perform, almost regardless of what they sound like. Raising a grand proves the point really - good on you. It's just us "perfectionists" that cringe at the quality issues

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Absolutely! Some of my happiest times as a sound-tech are in 'village halls'. Always lots of interaction with me by audience members - mostly positive - and a good time is had by all. You just have to take all the merry quips about "do you know what all those knobs do?" etc. as part of the fun!

Quote Mike Stranks:

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Quote Matt_Moose:

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But the good thing about Village Hall Mode (yes, I live opposite ours too and have been requested to "perform" for various lunches, events and whatevers) is that actually, the audience just appreciate the fact it's someone who's prepared to perform, almost regardless of what they sound like. Raising a grand proves the point really - good on you. It's just us "perfectionists" that cringe at the quality issues

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Absolutely! Some of my happiest times as a sound-tech are in 'village halls'. Always lots of interaction with me by audience members - mostly positive - and a good time is had by all. You just have to take all the merry quips about "do you know what all those knobs do?" etc. as part of the fun!

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But don't be like the one I suffered last week! She had a mic, and was in love with it. Played at being a DJ before the show, thought it was her job to do an audience warmup - all with her mic turned up louder than anything else in the (largely unamplified) show. When a solo singer DID use a mic, had no concept of bringing them just a LITTLE above the chorus singers. Missed half her cues. I could have strangled her!

I have a similar question in regards my upcoming production. We use a Yamaha Clavinova, and I usually take a signal from the AUX out, into my desk with a regular RCA cable. Is there any advantage to using an RCA to XLR (or to Jack) and going through a DI box?

thanks

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I honestly think you ought to sit down calmly, take a stress pill and think things over
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Quote geefunk:

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I have a similar question in regards my upcoming production. We use a Yamaha Clavinova, and I usually take a signal from the AUX out, into my desk with a regular RCA cable. Is there any advantage to using an RCA to XLR (or to Jack) and going through a DI box?

thanks

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I'd say "nearly always". Unless the distance is only about 3 or 4 metres from keyboard to desk then, yes, the DI route is much more likely to be trouble free - and even that length may cause trouble. I've had 'orrible problems in the past with unbalanced lines on an electrically noisy stage. These days my rule of thumb is instrument to DI as short as possible; DI to desk whatever length you like!

... and also take note of what's been said above about 2:1 adapters.

Cheers! M

Quote Mike Stranks:

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Quote geefunk:

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I have a similar question in regards my upcoming production. We use a Yamaha Clavinova, and I usually take a signal from the AUX out, into my desk with a regular RCA cable. Is there any advantage to using an RCA to XLR (or to Jack) and going through a DI box?

thanks

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I'd say "nearly always". Unless the distance is only about 3 or 4 metres from keyboard to desk then, yes, the DI route is much more likely to be trouble free - and even that length may cause trouble. I've had 'orrible problems in the past with unbalanced lines on an electrically noisy stage. These days my rule of thumb is instrument to DI as short as possible; DI to desk whatever length you like!

... and also take note of what's been said above about 2:1 adapters.


Cheers! M

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hmmm, thanks. I don't think I have any Stereo DI's - will have a look.

cheers Mike

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I honestly think you ought to sit down calmly, take a stress pill and think things over
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Sorry if I'm being slow here but it isn't clear from the OP what sort of lead you're using, why you're taking only one channel from a stereo headphone socket. Is there only one mono channel available on the desk?

As I haven't heard the distortion in question, please forgive possibly irrelevant questions:

Is it definitely overload/clipping distortion?

Has it only happened with one particular keyboard, or with several?

I take it this is a full-size keyboard e.g. clavinova, not a "toy" one?

Is the distortion you're getting in the PA definitely worse than that from the internal speakers? A crappy internal speaker often doesn't do the frequencies that are getting mashed, which you only hear once they're going through decent gear. It could be that it's just how that keyboard sounds and there's nothing you can do about it.

Does the gain on the desk make any difference or is it the same level of distortion regardless?

Depressing that attenuation on a DI box didn't help - did it make no difference at all, or just not enough?

Sorry to ask really obvious stuff, but it's worth establishing all the simple stuff first!

A club I play at has a keyboard with only a 1/8" stereo output marked headphones but works perfectly - I made up a 15ft lead 1/8" stereo to two 1/4" monos for this very purpose, but then found that a cheap ipod-to-RCA with 1/4" adaptors was just as good, if perhaps not as robust. I use it in a stereo channel on the desk, but if there were only a single mono channel available I suppose I'd use one jack and isolate the other - as you said stereo from keyboards isn't bottom-notes-left and top-notes-right anyway, both sides are usually a reasonable mono signal - but with most keyboards I find the two channels don't necessarily combine nicely into one mono, if you have to take mono it's often better to take one channel or the other.

An insert lead as suggested above was another idea but was rejected as the 1/8" adaptor would put a lot of physical strain on the socket due to the inccreased leverage of the weight of the cable - unless I found a right-angle adaptor, or one that's a lead.

Depending on the player it might be almost impossible to limit them to a max volume setting on the keyboard's volume control, especially if they're riding the volume during the show. A bit of adrenalin usually results in any soundcheck agreement being torn up in the heat of the moment! If gaffer tape over the volume control isn't an option, then the problem needs to be sorted some other way.

This looks like another job for...

The ART DTI line level isolator, with a link out to a combo/powered speaker as monitor. Some strategically placed gaffer tape over the headphone level control and a big sign on the monitor gain saying 'more you'.

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Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

Quote geefunk:

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hmmm, thanks. I don't think I have any Stereo DI's - will have a look.

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Two mono DIs will work fine, preferably matched DIs(Meaning same model/brand not necessarily successive serial numbers, though that might be even better)

Seablade

Quote seablade:

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Quote geefunk:

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hmmm, thanks. I don't think I have any Stereo DI's - will have a look.

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Two mono DIs will work fine, preferably matched DIs(Meaning same model/brand not necessarily successive serial numbers, though that might be even better)

Seablade

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Oh? Fantastic - that solves it!
Thanks

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I honestly think you ought to sit down calmly, take a stress pill and think things over
Twitter

Raphbass,

I didn't say what cable I was using in this instance but it was a TS jack lead. Hence only getting one side. There wasn't a huge reason for that other than the keyboard player (who, you may remember, I wasn't expecting at all) turned up and plugged his own TS cable into the back of my active monitor. At this point I didn't know what the keyboard was (it was a Yamaha PSR type home keyboard) and since I was involved with the band in the pit (yeah, village hall strikes again!) I couldn't fix it in that performance. I replaced the keyboard man's cable with one of mine, going through a DI and into the desk before the next performance, but the sound was still heavily distorted, which was a bit of a bummer as I thought I might have cracked it. Needless to say, I didn't see the keyboard player again until I was in the pit for the next performance, so I'd left what I thought was a pretty solid solution in the hands of the stage manager (yes, the one that plugged guitar and keyboard leads in the wrong way round at the next performance from this).

Now, it sounded to me as if something was badly overloaded when I heard the distortion the first time - it wasn't anything like the thin sound you get when half a stereo signal's missing - and I briefed my trainee sound man to sort the level out when the attenuated signal came through (yes, still in village hall mode, I'm afraid). There was no opportunity to do any diagnostics until a few minutes before the third performance, when the aforementioned switch of guitar and keyboard cables happened. You may be thinking by now this is all more like 'The Bricklayer' than doing sound, and you'd be right! As it turned out we got a good laugh so I think we could have built a sketch out of these events (funnier than some of the others in the show, anyway).

In summary, then, it wasn't a Clavinova but much nearer the stickleback end of the Yamaha range; I wasn't aware it was going to be there in the first place; I have no idea what it sounded like through the speakers as I never got an opportunity to try that; I wasn't able to be on hand to set the thing up and I'd had to delegate cable plugging to a stage manager and setting levels to a newly trained sound assistant. Other than that, everything was tickety-boo.

Oh, and it wasn't the only or the biggest challenge I had in that show, so I'm just looking back now and trying to work out how best to deal with this sort of event next time it happens (as it undoubtedly will). I've got hold of a similar keyboard to play around with so at least I'll know another time what the thing could sound like with whatever scheme I concoct to deal with it.

Quote tacitus:

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... so I'm just looking back now and trying to work out how best to deal with this sort of event next time it happens (as it undoubtedly will)...

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Ah! A man after me own 'eart!

Yeah, I work on the principle that something will always go wrong, and if you haven't fixed a previous thing that went wrong there'll be two things that go wrong. One cock-up is almost always recoverable in some way - often not even noticeable to those around you - but multiple cock-ups reveal you to be a total w***er.

I take it MIke, you go out with a box full of bits designed to solve every known and most unknown interconnect problems, a set of sticky things that will repair most breakages and lots of cable ties (great for fixing the car and getting cold pork out of your teeth ...). I played in a band once where they laughed to see my box of adapters, but I used an awful lot of them with that very band in a fairly small number of gigs and rehearsals.

Quote tacitus:

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I take it MIke, you go out with a box full of bits designed to solve every known and most unknown interconnect problems...

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No; THREE boxes of interconnects - they won't all fit in one box!

In idle moments after set-up/soundcheck and before a gig a friend sometimes 'invents' interconnects to see if he can catch me out. He's never succeeded yet - even if the A to B route is a bit tortuous and definitely 'emergencies only'. For the more common stuff I've made up short adapter leads.

But more seriously, there's always something to learn from a gig in terms of 'goods' and 'bads'. I'm starting to do regular gigs at a small venue with a very small stage. Changeovers between bands/performers are fast and frantic. After a disaster a couple of months ago with dead lines that couldn't be traced I rethought through the whole micing/DI'ing, cabling and routing process and worked out a completely new approach (for me). Tried it last Friday and got very fast changeovers and happy bands!

Absolutely agree - it's easy to solve a set-up problem by adding a bit to something you've already done instead of thinking it through from the beginning again. Like my wife's navigating, which always involves a 'short cut' going through the place she grew up in. And a few minutes off setting up or tearing down adds up over a year or two's gigs.

For smaller gigs I play my Yamaha P120 through either a single Roland KC 500 amp or the smaller (much lighter!) KC150. In either case I use a single lead going from the L/R output on the P120 into the amp. I then set the speakers on the piano to about half volume which provides a good monitor with the amp directed away from me. If there is a large p.a on site I'll go through that and that can give a great sound but I'm not sure what advantage stereo would bring (with my objective of getting as near to the sound of a good acoustic piano as possible)... I'm not so aware of the sound distinctly panning left>right when sat at a grand with the lid up, for example.

Quote DianeGaines:

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For smaller gigs I play my Yamaha P120 through either a single Roland KC 500 amp or the smaller (much lighter!) KC150. In either case I use a single lead going from the L/R output on the P120 into the amp. I then set the speakers on the piano to about half volume which provides a good monitor with the amp directed away from me. If there is a large p.a on site I'll go through that and that can give a great sound but I'm not sure what advantage stereo would bring (with my objective of getting as near to the sound of a good acoustic piano as possible)... I'm not so aware of the sound distinctly panning left>right when sat at a grand with the lid up, for example.

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If you're playing through a keyboard amp, then clearly you'd send a mono signal, as keyboard amps tend to be a mono source. However, sending a stereo signal to a larger sound system can be beneficial, especially for concert work. How much you 'spread' the sound is a matter of taste!

I'm surprised you can't hear the stereo effect of playing a grand piano - there's a reasonable chance you'd hear more bass coming from the left hand side and more treble coming from the right, something to do with the physical placement of the strings, hammers, I understand....................

Bob

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www.bickerton.co.nz

Quote Bob Bickerton:

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Quote DianeGaines:

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For smaller gigs I play my Yamaha P120 through either a single Roland KC 500 amp or the smaller (much lighter!) KC150. In either case I use a single lead going from the L/R output on the P120 into the amp. I then set the speakers on the piano to about half volume which provides a good monitor with the amp directed away from me. If there is a large p.a on site I'll go through that and that can give a great sound but I'm not sure what advantage stereo would bring (with my objective of getting as near to the sound of a good acoustic piano as possible)... I'm not so aware of the sound distinctly panning left>right when sat at a grand with the lid up, for example.

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If you're playing through a keyboard amp, then clearly you'd send a mono signal, as keyboard amps tend to be a mono source. However, sending a stereo signal to a larger sound system can be beneficial, especially for concert work. How much you 'spread' the sound is a matter of taste!

I'm surprised you can't hear the stereo effect of playing a grand piano - there's a reasonable chance you'd hear more bass coming from the left hand side and more treble coming from the right, something to do with the physical placement of the strings, hammers, I understand....................

Bob

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Bob-

You fell for some actually quite good sig spam I believe, look at the other posts by this user.

Seablade

I got hold of a cheap Yamaha keyboard and I've plugged phones into it and turned it right up. Some minor distortion at full volume on some voices but nothing like the poo I was getting from the keyboard in the village hall. Haven't tried the various ways of getting it into the PA yet but I will soon ...

I will be making up a hard-wired equivalent of the clutch of adapters I used to get from stereo TRS to two mono jacks. I've got insert leads but this will be one cable with short tails for the jacks unlike my insert leads which are twin cables combined into the TRS plug. And it will be a special colour so it doesn't look like another guitar cable.

A TS jack must be shorting one channel of the stereo headphone output - could that be causing the problem? Sounds like you're about to find out...

I've skim-read the thread but can't find whether you ever checked the headphone output of the offending keyboard with headphones.

If you're ok with another keyboard, with the same TS lead, only cracking up at top volume, then it sounds like maybe the guy's toy keyboard is simply crap.

also not sure whether you've said if it's a 1/8" headphone socket or 1/4" - if it's 1/8" then an iPod lead with RCA to 1/4" adaptors is the easiest/cheapest, if it's 1/4" then use an insert lead as someone suggested above. Saves soldering up a special lead - though I suppose if you make a proper one you save having to isolate the plug of the unused channel.

Quote tacitus:

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multiple cock-ups reveal you to be a total w***er.

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Yep, even when none of them are your fault. People turn up with sh*te gear, frayed bits of string for leads, sometimes they're excellent players but "arty" and un-bothered about gear, YOU get the flak for the sound. This pretty much never happens in decent bands, but the village hall thing is a nightmare, I know!

Quote tacitus:

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Yeah, I work on the principle that something will always go wrong, and if you haven't fixed a previous thing that went wrong there'll be two things that go wrong. One cock-up is almost always recoverable in some way - often not even noticeable to those around you - but multiple cock-ups reveal you to be a total w***er.

I take it MIke, you go out with a box full of bits designed to solve every known and most unknown interconnect problems, a set of sticky things that will repair most breakages and lots of cable ties (great for fixing the car and getting cold pork out of your teeth ...). I played in a band once where they laughed to see my box of adapters, but I used an awful lot of them with that very band in a fairly small number of gigs and rehearsals.

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I carry around a large case of "problem solvers" - loads of adaptors but also lots of weird leads to avoid having to daisy-chain adaptors. It's bigger than the case I have for mics and the case for leads put together.

I never got a chance to test the offending keyboard - the one I'm playing with now is the cheapest 5 octave keyboard I could find with an old-fashioned midi socket on it to drive my Oberheim Hammond module should existing options die. I strongly suspect the keyboard in question was pretty well knackered - if I'd been given a proper list of the acts and what they were planning to do the player would have had my Roland piano on stage anyway. I also don't think using TS on the headphone socket was doing anything worse than losing the right channel, but I could be wrong. The lads in the act were off with their gear to another gig within minutes of playing the first show so systematic trouble-shooting wasn't an option.

That keyboard and the one I have now are both 1/4" sockets - the way I'd do that "normally" is to use a 1/4" TRS to twin phone socket adapter, connected to a heavy duty twin phono cable with phono to jack adapters on the other end to go into the mixer or DI's. Since that involves two stages of cheap adapters, I'd rather have a made-up cable and know it's as good as it can be.