I'm currently sorting out a silent recording rig, and now looking at speaker simulation options-mostly analogue ones as i want it to include a power soak.

I am curious though-what is speaker simulation? what kind of processing takes place?
just EQ? multiband compression? something complex like convolutions? comb filtering?

i have a multiband compressor which i'd assume would be closer to speaker behaviour than fixed equalisation across dynamics... close-how effective would this be?

I think you are confusing speaker EMULATION with complete guitar amp modelling?

There are quite a few amps and fewer pedals that have SE outputs and these are just an EQ that gives an approximation of the response that you might get from a good speaker and cab. Some (cough!) even give you a choice of 1x12 or 4x12 cabs!

I have the circuits and the response data but it would cost you more to build it from scratch than to buy the pedal!

Dave.

speaker simulation is the process of attempting to recreate the effect on the sound of the speaker/driver/mic combination used in capturing a guitar tone.


there are many different approaches, ranging from , as dave says, just basic EQ filtering, to more responsive dynamic filtering, modelling, convolution based on impulse responses, and indeed, combinations of any or all the aforementioned.


it can cost anywhere from the price of a cheap and nasty DI box, to several thousand pounds.... (for an example , look up the sequis motherload. or the Behinger Gi100 , not recommendations, merely observed examples)


i would seriously not expect to be able to do a proper job with just a multiband compressor.....

maybe one combined with other devices....



( for example, for ages, i sometimes used a Marshall DRP1 plugged in to a Behringer Gi100 , to achieve a moderately successful emulation of amp power stage and speaker, and then shove the front end of choice in to it , to feed a PA, or recording rig , it is however, something of a rough and ready solution to the problem , that i came up with before so many software and DSP based alternatives came to market, and there have been MUCH more sophisticated methods available to me for some years...... )

Quote ef37a:

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I think you are confusing speaker EMULATION with complete guitar amp modelling?

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i don't know why you say that its clear throughout the post i mean speaker simulation. i have my preamp and power amp, and am after an attenuator.

http://diystompboxes.com/pedals/schems/msim.jpg
http://www.mif.pg.gda.pl/homepages/tom/files/sim2.gif
here's two examples but it can't be what you are talking about. maybe an hours work £30 most. simpler than anything i've ever built.-what pedals are you talking about?.

plugins seem the obvious way to go, although i'm not currently using PC for tracking i can probably work around that.

Edited by permanent_daylight (31/01/12 01:20 AM)

Hi,

I'm doing pretty much what you are mentioning at home.

I can't help with attenuator recommendations..... My amp came with one and it also has a LINE OUT - it has a dummy load built in and you can safely whip out the speaker connections. The dummy load then takes the oomph and you get a nice overdriven amp straight into the PC. I actually prefer this solution to the amps that Dave is refering to that do indeed have a Speaker Emulated output..... I don't want this - whilst I'm sure it'll do a fine job into a PA etc I'd much rather they just chucked out a non-emulated signal as frankly a PC can do a better job. If said company put 'line outs' on their products I'd be a lot more interested..... If they stick with 'emulated out' then I'll be staying away for my home needs.

I'll get my flameproofs

So, my line level signal goes straight into my audio interface on the PC..... this signal sounds pants because the speaker emulation hasn't been done. So I use these things http://www.redwirez.com/ which are a whole bunch of different speaker cabinet impulses recorded with different mics at different distances and IMO it's fabulous.

You can download a freebie from them (one of the Marshall cabs) and furtle around with it. You'll need to put it in a VST wrapper of some kind - LePou's LeCab will do.

If you do actually buy the set, they give you their own VST plugin which is a really simple to use little VST that allows you to easily put different cabs and mics together. You can then EQ as needed and you can even lump an impedence curve on there to help the fact that a dummy load (such as mine) doesn't interact in the same way as a real speaker. Or so I'm told

I've only got a couple of mics and, with my gear and my experience, I'm actually doing rather better out of these things than micing up my cab. I'm certainly getting loads of flavour variations. Valve amp plus the Redwirez is a fab setup IMO and, for silent recording, I'm very happy with it.

YMMV of course but, if you're getting the attenuator anyway and it has a line out then you have a free way forward to see if your ears like them

My apologies, I blanked the "power soak" bit! I have had better fortnights.

The circuits I had in mind are rather more complex than the ones you link to and if you can put together the 40 odd passive components, 4 op amp stages, +and - 15volt regulated supplies, put it in a tin with in out jacks in an hour for 30quid my old firm would love to hear from you I am sure!

Now that I grasp (DOH!)that you want to simulate a loudspeaker LOAD I can't be of much help I am afraid but I doubt compression effects are that important. Speakers DO get into thermal compression of course but generally amp makers use models with ratings some twice the clean amp power and so it is not that big a factor? Have you read the speaker article in the Feb' issue?

Dave.

Hi Garry,
Lets call a spade a shovel! The HT and Series One Blackstars, with the exception of the HT-1 have an FX loop so you can get a clean, "flat" feed there (it is 1/2 normalled so feed is preserved to the amp PA).

Built in load? No, I think tech' direct' is unhappy with speaker switching in jacks, bit of resistance and bye-bye op valves and traff? They are not that keen on power soaks anyway and it gets a bit hairy heatwise past about 15watts.

But all flesh is grass. The sound of a good amp into a good cab at its "sweet spot", does not have to be that loud, is virtually impossible to bottle and if you have ever been 10feet away from a 200watter into a 340W 4x12 on top song you would give up trying THAT simulation! You would be hard put to find monitors to reproduce the levels anyway!

Dave.

Quote ef37a:

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Hi Garry,
Lets call a spade a shovel! The HT and Series One Blackstars, with the exception of the HT-1 have an FX loop so you can get a clean, "flat" feed there (it is 1/2 normalled so feed is preserved to the amp PA).

Built in load? No, I think tech' direct' is unhappy with speaker switching in jacks, bit of resistance and bye-bye op valves and traff? They are not that keen on power soaks anyway and it gets a bit hairy heatwise past about 15watts.

But all flesh is grass. The sound of a good amp into a good cab at its "sweet spot", does not have to be that loud, is virtually impossible to bottle and if you have ever been 10feet away from a 200watter into a 340W 4x12 on top song you would give up trying THAT simulation! You would be hard put to find monitors to reproduce the levels anyway!

Dave.

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Yes, but the effect loop is between the preamp and the power amp isn't it? A lot of the marketing ethos behind the low-watt amps at home is that you crank them till they cry so as the power stage breaks up. You know a lot more about amp design than I ever will so you'll be able to say how much difference this makes on some amps vs marketing snake oil. But that's how they sell 'em. On my amp, the power stage is a huge part of the sound.... I've tried the fx send to the impulses and the built in line-out that is a dummy load after the power amp. There is no comparison

As to using it, I don't ever plug and unplug the direct out whilst the amp is on..... I agree with you that the hairy factor there would be high!

And I quite agree that a real amp through a real cab is the gold standard - my favourite sound at home is indeed this little thing cranked to the nuts through the Greenback loaded cab. It's magic. However, getting that bottled (which is what we're all trying to do with microphones when we record it) is a very different thing. An experienced person with a reasonable room and a choice of mics will do a fine job of this. In the home studio where someone might just have an SM57 (or 8) and a condensor that is intended for vocal duties then these are a Godsend..... Especially when life gets in the way and the only time you have to record is when the kids are in bed!

In my room with my kit and my limited level of musicianship and studio know how, these things do a remarkably competent job. For me, they are the perfect compromise and, in the home studio, that often has to happen. My amp has no master volume and to get even crunch I need to either use an attenuator or play at levels that make my ears ring and my wife complain

At least this way, I get the tone and feel of a real cranked amp which no 'complete' modeller I've tried has managed.

Honestly think SOS should review these - be nice to see what the pros think

As to Blackstar, I actually emailed them yesterday prior to seeing this thread and asked them about their emulated out.... They provide a different flavour to what I currently use and, if I could squirt their power amp into cavinet emulation, I may be tempted..... They just said 'emulated only' and to try one. I already know that the HT-5 is a fab amp for the money and I almost bought an HT dual from a mate who was selling his.... I passed in the end. My amp hated it up front. Direct into the desk via the emulated out it was good but buried by taking the 'direct out' and using the Redwirez. As the HT Dual is essentially the front end of an HT-5 then that front end sound is the best I can do from their range. It was superb, but was beaten IMO by what I already own hence me passing.

Gary

Yes Garry I agree, it is all a compromise compared to the real thing. I was not suggesting that the FX out was in any way like a loaded speaker out just that it was not "mucked about" by emulation!

The idea that a 5W amp can be used at full welly at home and not wake a chavvy (3 doors down!) should not be promolgated! The 5 (and other models) does tho' have its own overdrive voicing that CAN be used at any level down to a whisper, again, not "real" but many find it very acceptable. When the Devil Drives...? Making a power soak for a 5wattter is beer into water of course but rate it at 20W because the 5 can kick out ten (class AB, ppull, fixed biased th'knows!).

Bit sweeping to call the 5 a Dual front end! Similar topology I grant you but as always the devil is in the tiniest of details. for one thing the 5 pre amp went thru' several mods and tweaks post production. The Dual has remained the same apart from PSU and switch regime (AFAIK).

Dave.

Back to the OP - my recommendation would be to look into an isolation box for your amp / speaker. I have a Hermit Cab which I was lucky enough to get cheap and it is a great box which lives 'under the stairs' and can be called on when needed. Call me a nutter, but even the best convolution modelling system lacks something (the bit of air moving?) imho.

I've tried a few things and was quite impressed with the HT5 output until I tried to add a little 'air' to the sound and realised that it was a case of 'here it is - take it or leave it' with the sound on the emulated out. Nice .. but if it doesn't fit, then look elsewhere. Given the shockingly good vfm quotient, I'm fine with that.

TBH, I've had good results recording during the day with a cab in a far room (bathroom in fact) covered with a huge, VERY thick old curtain to 'isolate' it. Silent is ok for practice, but a little schmoozing of the neighbours and you might be able to run a decent amp at slightly higher than listening levels for short periods.

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Veni, Vidi, Aesculi
(I came, I saw, I conkered)

thanks for the isolation cab idea dave i'll look into it.

I think the conclusion for me is that i run a lot of delay signals, for shoegaze and post rock sounds. often they can sound good even DI through a delay pedal, although tube distortion helps a lot. for the dry signals i can mic up occasionally, or use a combination of low volume mic/line out to desk. i can only manage low volume clean sound at the moment so attenuators would help with bringing a fuzz sound down.
I think the natural sound you mention dave of air moving can sometimes be taken out, depending on what's in the song- the other instruments are pianos, cellos and somehow they offset the need for such a natural sound.

Plus i think i'll go for the convolution emulators too, tracking i do on a portable multitrack, and my PC can't handle too many tracks at once-i use for edits and some effects.

Cool - there is a good freeware plugin from Voxengo called Boogex which does convolution and was a staple a few years ago. Worth checking out and maybe someone can recommend a better plug. Remember, once you get a tone you like, you can always bounce / freeze the track...

HTH

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Veni, Vidi, Aesculi
(I came, I saw, I conkered)

OK just one last question, didn't seem worth making a new thread for:

I'm look at the Reyes Audio LLC Output Tamer. can i then unplug the speaker and send the output from the soak to a recording desk?