Main Forums >> Production - Mixing, Mastering, Gear & Techniques
        Print Thread

Pages: 1
Moroccomoose



Joined: 12/04/11
Posts: 109
Loc: Northampton
Monitor connections new
      #966738 - 27/01/12 02:05 PM
Hi Folks,

A question (some questions actually )about monitor hook up and Mixer dB LEDs.

I currently have my Yamaha MW10c mixer hooked up via a Delta 1010. I have the 2 inserts and channels 3&4 panned hard left and right connected to the Delta 1010 to give four independent channels into my DAW.
I have a stereo pair out from the 1010 back into the monitor of the mixer then monitor out to my active monitors. So far so good...
But I have noticed that even that even with a MONO output from the DAW, the left hand LED strip on the mixer is always quieter than the right. This leads me to think something is wrong with the hardware. I checked the signal level buttons on the rear of the 1010 more times than I care to remember so either a DA in the 1010 is broke or the left channel in my mixer isn't right?

My solution is to hook the monitors straight into the Delta 1010, so that means using the Master fader in the DAW to control the speaker volume. But this means I no longer have a volume control for the speakers (Formally used volume on the MX10c) Do I lose anything if I am mixing with the master fader in the DAW down?

SO to sum up:
What could be causing the LEDs in the MX10c to be unbalanced when mono signal is sent, centrally panned.
Is it sensible to have the mixer between the delta 1010 and active Mons?
If I use the master fader in the DAW do I lose anything?

Thanks in advance

Stu.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Hugh RobjohnsAdministrator
SOS Technical Editor


Joined: 25/07/03
Posts: 22419
Loc: Worcestershire
Re: Monitor connections new [Re: Moroccomoose]
      #966753 - 27/01/12 02:37 PM
Okay... I'm a little confused by your description of the set up, so can I satrt by clarifying exactly what you have connected to what?

Quote Moroccomoose:

I have the 2 inserts and channels 3&4 panned hard left and right connected to the Delta 1010 to give four independent channels into my DAW.




So you're interrupting the signal path for channels 1 and 2 by using the insert points to derive two (unbalanced) inputs to your DAW interface, and you're using the line input sockets on channel stereo 3/4 as inserts to provide the other two channels into your DAW, yes?

No problem with that so far... provided all the plugs at the mixer end of the cables are two-pole Tip-Sleeve (mono or unbalanced) jack plugs.

Quote:

I have a stereo pair out from the 1010 back into the monitor of the mixer then monitor out to my active monitors.




I presume you mean the main monitoring signal goes from the 1010 to the 'Return' inputs of the mixer.

Quote:

So far so good...




Yep. Don't see a problem...

Quote:

But I have noticed that even that even with a MONO output from the DAW, the left hand LED strip on the mixer is always quieter than the right.




By how much? If it just a single LED then it could just be a minor meter calibration error. If it is a signifiant difference then there is something more serious afoot!

If the level difference is about 12dB then it is likely to be because one of the interface outputs is set for -10dBV and the other for +4dBu. But you say you've checked that...

If the level difference is about 6dB then it might be because one side is connected with balanced cables and the other side with unbalanced cables.

Another possibility is that there is some other signal being fed through the desk and adding to the main output -- probably something panned to the right hand side! If any of your insert cables are balanced TRS plugs there is the possibility that some of the direct signal is leaking back into the mixer's mix bus.

Are you using the USB connection, and if so the audio from that mixes with anything connected to the tape returns whihc might be part of the problem.

There are a couple of useful things you could do to help identify the problem.

1. Swap the left and right monitor return connections over temporarily at the mixer. Does the left hand channel now become the loudest?

2. Disconnect everything else from the mixer and see if that affects the imbalance.

Quote:

Is it sensible to have the mixer between the delta 1010 and active Mons?




Yes -- it's always nice to have a real physical knob to turn down if the computer goes mad and generates full level noises with a locked-up control interface!

Quote:

If I use the master fader in the DAW do I lose anything?




The analogue signal-noise ratio gets worse.

hugh

--------------------
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Moroccomoose



Joined: 12/04/11
Posts: 109
Loc: Northampton
Re: Monitor connections new [Re: Moroccomoose]
      #966787 - 27/01/12 04:26 PM
Hi Hugh,

Thanks for the quick reply.

It is set up as you describe with the channel 1&2 inserts going to Delta 1010 1&2in (mono/unbalanced cables)and the line out with channels 3 and 4 panned hard left and right routed to Delta 1010 3&4in

I have delta 1&2 out to the 'monitor in' on the MW10c (2x mono jack to phono) with the monitors connected to 'monitor out' with balanced jack to xlr.

Interestingly, I have the USB connected but is not utilised in my DAW, it means I can use the USB drivers to run my PC sounds through my monitors.

So the USB drivers are the PC audio drivers, but in my DAW I use the DM-Audio ASIO driver for the Delta. It works well and the unbalanced LEDs is not conditional of the USB being hooked up.

Unfortunately I do not have a well treated space to work in, but I have managed to convince myself that the stereo centre is not central, this compounded with the discrepancy in the mixer LEDs leads me to believe either the Delta or the Yamaha has a problem.

I will try swapping left to right to see if the problem reverses. And disconnecting everything else. and keep you posted!

Cheers.

Stu.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Hugh RobjohnsAdministrator
SOS Technical Editor


Joined: 25/07/03
Posts: 22419
Loc: Worcestershire
Re: Monitor connections new [Re: Moroccomoose]
      #966795 - 27/01/12 04:49 PM
Okay. Swapping the monitor feed from the Delta will tell us something useful.

The Yamaha mixer is a little unusual in its signal path structure because the monitor outputs are derived from a summing stage that also feeds the meters. That summing stage combines signals from the main outputs and from the two-track return path which is, itself, a sum of the two-track return and the USB signal. The monitor mix control apperas to affect both the stsreo out level and the return level...

So it would be worthwhile making sure that the Stereo level control is turned down to ensure that nothing from the main mixer is affecting the metering.

Do you get a balanced meter reading if you pan a single mic input to the middle and route to the main stereo output (you'll have to unplug the insert cable to test this)?

Hugh

--------------------
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Moroccomoose



Joined: 12/04/11
Posts: 109
Loc: Northampton
Re: Monitor connections new [Re: Moroccomoose]
      #966822 - 27/01/12 07:28 PM
OK, so I did some messing around swapping cables etc and I found the problem. Its in the Delta 1010, Channel 1 out is b*ggered. It works but just at a much lower volume, similarly on the -10 and +4 when compared to other tracks on the same setting. Luckily I had one spare out which is now no.1. Not as neat and tidy, but things sounding much better now!

Any ideas as to what could cause the drop in volume on the output channel? Its odd that it is just quieter rather than not working....FWIW, the software monitor shows volumes at the proper level for the output.

Here is to hoping its just the serial cable?? But its probably more sinister!!

Thanks for your help Hugh.

Stu.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Arksun



Joined: 15/06/11
Posts: 30
Re: Monitor connections [Re: Hugh Robjohns]
      #967384 - 31/01/12 03:23 AM
Quote Hugh Robjohns:


Yes -- it's always nice to have a real physical knob to turn down if the computer goes mad and generates full level noises with a locked-up control interface!





A big AMEN to that!. Made that mistake back in 2008, monitors plugged directly into soundcard. Had a total overload (feedback loop through mic) that was soo intensly loud I literally froze solid for a few seconds before being able to react, by which time I'd damanged one speaker and done god knows what damage to my hearing. Couldn't hear bass properly for 2 days.

Now I have an analogue volume control sitting in between the audio interface and the monitors.

It's good to remind ourselves that these monitors of ours are potentially dangerous instruments @ peak load (or overload rather)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Hugh RobjohnsAdministrator
SOS Technical Editor


Joined: 25/07/03
Posts: 22419
Loc: Worcestershire
Re: Monitor connections new [Re: Moroccomoose]
      #967410 - 31/01/12 09:58 AM
Quote Moroccomoose:

Its in the Delta 1010, Channel 1 out is b*ggered. It works but just at a much lower volume...




Glad you found the problem. How much lower in level is the broken output compared to the good ones?

Quote:

Any ideas as to what could cause the drop in volume on the output channel?




Could be a number of things. If it's about 6dB lower then it's probably a dead half of an active output driver. If it's more than that then it could be a dead buffer stage somewhere or a dirty or broken connection in the umbilical cable.

Have you tried disconnecting, cleaning and reconnecting the umbilical?

hugh

--------------------
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
ef37a



Joined: 29/05/06
Posts: 7039
Loc: northampton uk
Re: Monitor connections new [Re: Moroccomoose]
      #967439 - 31/01/12 11:25 AM
You could try pulling the card, remove all M-A drivers, run Ccleaner on the Registry, reboot, shutdown and fit the card re boot re do drivers.

Don't know if it was here but someone had a similar problem with a Delta 66 and the above fixed it.

Dave.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator     Back to top
Pages: 1

Rate this thread

Jump to

Extra Information
1 registered and 12 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  David Etheridge, James Perrett, zenguitar, Martin Walker, Hugh Robjohns, Zukan, Frank Eleveld, SOS News Editor 
Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is enabled
      UBBCode is enabled
Rating:
Thread views: 2071

January 2015
On sale now at main newsagents and bookstores (or buy direct from the
SOS Web Shop)
SOS current Print Magazine: click here for FULL Contents list
Click image for January 2015
DAW Tips from SOS

 

Home | Search | News | Current Issue | Tablet Mag | Articles | Forum | Blog | Subscribe | Shop | Readers Ads

Advertise | Information | Privacy Policy | Support | Login Help

 

Email: Contact SOS

Telephone: +44 (0)1954 789888

Fax: +44 (0)1954 789895

Registered Office: Media House, Trafalgar Way, Bar Hill, Cambridge, CB23 8SQ, United Kingdom.

Sound On Sound Ltd is registered in England and Wales.

Company number: 3015516 VAT number: GB 638 5307 26

         

All contents copyright © SOS Publications Group and/or its licensors, 1985-2014. All rights reserved.
The contents of this article are subject to worldwide copyright protection and reproduction in whole or part, whether mechanical or electronic, is expressly forbidden without the prior written consent of the Publishers. Great care has been taken to ensure accuracy in the preparation of this article but neither Sound On Sound Limited nor the publishers can be held responsible for its contents. The views expressed are those of the contributors and not necessarily those of the publishers.

Web site designed & maintained by PB Associates | SOS | Relative Media