Hi All,

I've been given a contract for my new album by a label which states that I get 50p for each album sold in the UK and 35p everywhere else. Is this about right? The label has a big distribution network and the albums (mainly sold in CD form) go for around £10 each.

Any advice much appreciated!

--------------------
There are 10 types of people in this world - 9 who understand binary; the rest are like me.

Depends on circumstances really, but it sounds like you're in a similar position to last year, and still aren't entirely happy about it. Is this the same company...? Have you tried to negotiate a better deal...?

http://www.soundonsound.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=882215& page=8&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=365&fpart=1

Yup, same firm. The album was put on the back burner for a while, but now its finished, and now I have the actual contract, rather than just an email with a rough idea of splits.

Narco suggested in that last thread that I look at negotiating...I might try that, but is it normal practice to be issued a contract as a basis for negotiation or are labels not usually expecting any comeback, ie, just a signature? What I don't want to do obviously is p1ss them off by appearing like a money grabbing git. But, of course, my fuel bill is rising daily!

--------------------
There are 10 types of people in this world - 9 who understand binary; the rest are like me.

It is normal to negotiate, they did you an offer and you can take them up on it or refuse and come with a counter offer. In 20 years as a pro I have very rarely just accepted an offer, most of the time it came down to negotiations. Not just about royalties and advances, sometimes over the lenght of copyright, territories or even something small as packaging deductions.
Always make sure you know exactly what is in the contract (I know obvious but many people assume things and get burnt). Make sure you are actually happy with all the points in the contract, once signed there is no way back unless the label break the terms of it.

That's low.

A £10 CD would have a dealer price of something like £6.

Publishing total on that would be 51p. A low 12% royalty for recording would be 72p. This should give you £1.23. There IS often a deduction for foreign sales - but not down that much


Honestly - I would just walk away from a deal like that. It's promoting shoddy practise and just won't be worth your while..... unless you feel it's worthwhile for one single punt.

>What I don't want to do obviously is p1ss them off by appearing like a money grabbing git.

I really don't think you're going to come across as a "money-grabbing git".

It turns out that the company will allow me to purchase CDs for £1 each, and sell as many as I like, keeping all the profits, as long as I don't target outlets in the label's existing distribution network.

So if they sell (as they do) for £10 + p+p, and I buy 100,000, this time next year, Rodney... (Ok, just a slight marketing hurdle to get over...)

But seriously, the label actively encourages the artist to do this to become self sufficient.

Your thoughts?

--------------------
There are 10 types of people in this world - 9 who understand binary; the rest are like me.

As a curio... did this company give you any form of advance, i.e. the full recording costs and promotion for instance? Or did you just handed in the masters?
This would make a lot of difference in the end..
If they only took your finished product, then I will print your CDs and sell them back to you at £0.90 cents, leaving me with a neet profit and higher profit margins for you!
Plus, if I sell a few CDs myself, or even, dare I say, your music takes off, I will have you 'signed up' and in for real dosh!
Are they so clever?

--------------------
www.bugiolacchi.com
Songwriter/guitarist

Quote narcoman:

---

Honestly - I would just walk away from a deal like that. It's promoting shoddy practise and just won't be worth your while..... unless you feel it's worthwhile for one single punt.

---

--------------------
I'm All Ears.

Quote bugiolacchi:

---

As a curio... did this company give you any form of advance, i.e. the full recording costs and promotion for instance? Or did you just handed in the masters?
This would make a lot of difference in the end..
If they only took your finished product, then I will print your CDs and sell them back to you at £0.90 cents, leaving me with a neet profit and higher profit margins for you!
Plus, if I sell a few CDs myself, or even, dare I say, your music takes off, I will have you 'signed up' and in for real dosh!
Are they so clever?

---

No, no advance, I came to them with the concept - which they liked, but I financed the recording myself - though most of it was done at home in my studio, and I played all the instruments. However, they do have good distribution, and a promo machine set up, but obviously this promo only yields sales through their channels, i.e, £0.50 for me on each album. For me to make the £9 mark-up, I'd need to promote though other channels. Hmm, I can see your point.

It was an enjoyable thing to make, and having a commission for my 'own' album (as opposed to all the other stuff I do which is collaborative), was kind of like holding a glass of water to a bloke lost in the desert, and for me £0.50 per album is better than £0.00. They do expect to sell between 2k and 5k year on year, and there's plenty of scope for me to create more stuff. I'm kind of resigned to the fact that this stuff is quite specialised, and therefore a challenge to market - it'd take me many years to build a similar kind of distribution network in order to increase my chances of a higher earning from the same kind of material...

If anyone wants to have a listen, pm me and I'll send through some stuff. Marketing advice is welcome - I've got lots more ideas along a similar line.

--------------------
There are 10 types of people in this world - 9 who understand binary; the rest are like me.

well be fair, they gotta allow for vinyl breakages...

--------------------
~~~ A weasel hath not such a deal of spleen as you are tossed with! www.feline1.co.uk ~~~

I'd recommend NEGOTIATE upwards, you're not being greedy! Plus you should seriously think about marketing your music online yourself there are lots of opportunities

--------------------
Kev Ryan
Website: http://makemoneyinmusic.com

Post deleted by Zukan

Hi TSM, I've PM'd.

--------------------
There are 10 types of people in this world - 9 who understand binary; the rest are like me.

I find it hard to believe that someone would offer just 50 pence a go when there are no upfront costs and therefore no risk, not even any manufacturing. And even less if the purchaser lives overseas, for reasons that are incomprehensible to me. They must have an amazing marketing team to make such a deal worthwhile. Still, perhaps they do. Seems to me you're just paying them £5.50 for each sale, which doesn't sound cheap.

Does this company specialise in this sort of simple marketing/licensing deal, as opposed to longer term deals with artists etc? I've thought for a while that this is a good biz model nowadays, but 50p an album is derisory imho. To me it suggests that the company isn't very confident of its own abilities or doesn't think a lot of the album. But I'm rather naive about all this. Maybe things really have got this bad.

You mention a price for the CD - out of interest, what are you being offered for the download? Would this company expect to release it as a download, or would you be able to do that yourself? Also, is this just a distribution deal or does it cover the publishing?

Me, I was a DIY man myself in the day (and may be again soon) but I dealt in small runs so it made more sense for me to do it.

--------------------
Veni, Vidi, Aesculi
(I came, I saw, I conkered)

God... .50p per album...


That sounds awful low... I think I'll just pack it in now


Where can I check out your music?

Quote petev3.1:

---

I find it hard to believe that someone would offer just 50 pence a go when there are no upfront costs and therefore no risk, not even any manufacturing. And even less if the purchaser lives overseas, for reasons that are incomprehensible to me. They must have an amazing marketing team to make such a deal worthwhile. Still, perhaps they do. Seems to me you're just paying them £5.50 for each sale, which doesn't sound cheap.

Does this company specialise in this sort of simple marketing/licensing deal, as opposed to longer term deals with artists etc? I've thought for a while that this is a good biz model nowadays, but 50p an album is derisory imho. To me it suggests that the company isn't very confident of its own abilities or doesn't think a lot of the album. But I'm rather naive about all this. Maybe things really have got this bad.

---

It seems to me that the company is maxing out on long shelf life. 95% of their business is from physical sales, and they never reduce the price. So, yes, short-term I'm not ordering a Bentley but I'm interested in seeing how the long-tail pans out...

The distribution network is substantial particularly in the US and Europe, so my thoughts are that I'm looking at a small slice of an enormous pie, as opposed to a large slice of bugger all - which is probably what I'd get if I relied on my own marketing expertise!

--------------------
There are 10 types of people in this world - 9 who understand binary; the rest are like me.

Quote sthum:

---

God... .50p per album...


That sounds awful low... I think I'll just pack it in now


Where can I check out your music?

---

There's a link from my website.

--------------------
There are 10 types of people in this world - 9 who understand binary; the rest are like me.

Quote Dave B:

---

You mention a price for the CD - out of interest, what are you being offered for the download? Would this company expect to release it as a download, or would you be able to do that yourself? Also, is this just a distribution deal or does it cover the publishing?

Me, I was a DIY man myself in the day (and may be again soon) but I dealt in small runs so it made more sense for me to do it.

---

Download, Ha! 35p. But most of their sales are physical.

--------------------
There are 10 types of people in this world - 9 who understand binary; the rest are like me.

Quote basilfawlty:

---

It seems to me that the company is maxing out on long shelf life. 95% of their business is from physical sales, and they never reduce the price. So, yes, short-term I'm not ordering a Bentley but I'm interested in seeing how the long-tail pans out...

The distribution network is substantial particularly in the US and Europe, so my thoughts are that I'm looking at a small slice of an enormous pie, as opposed to a large slice of bugger all - which is probably what I'd get if I relied on my own marketing expertise!

---

That doesn't matter - it's just not in line with the rest of the world. You should be looking at 12% on PPD plus 8.5% on publishing against PPD. So a total 20.5%.... Even with a cut throat USA model you're still looking at 8% retail for master and 6.5% retail for publishing..... still 14.5%. It's just way way too low....... the clues are in the biz plan. If they sold any kind of bulk then they'd be certain of recoup at their end early on. It sounds very much like they sell small numbers of CDs over a long period that, with a larger catalogue, allows them to make a comfortable income en masse but fek all for their artists/content providers.

They sound like an unfair bunch of music leeches!!!

Double it and you might be talking.....

Quote narcoman:

---

Quote basilfawlty:

---

It seems to me that the company is maxing out on long shelf life. 95% of their business is from physical sales, and they never reduce the price. So, yes, short-term I'm not ordering a Bentley but I'm interested in seeing how the long-tail pans out...

The distribution network is substantial particularly in the US and Europe, so my thoughts are that I'm looking at a small slice of an enormous pie, as opposed to a large slice of bugger all - which is probably what I'd get if I relied on my own marketing expertise!

---

That doesn't matter - it's just not in line with the rest of the world. You should be looking at 12% on PPD plus 8.5% on publishing against PPD. So a total 20.5%.... Even with a cut throat USA model you're still looking at 8% retail for master and 6.5% retail for publishing..... still 14.5%. It's just way way too low....... the clues are in the biz plan. If they sold any kind of bulk then they'd be certain of recoup at their end early on. It sounds very much like they sell small numbers of CDs over a long period that, with a larger catalogue, allows them to make a comfortable income en masse but fek all for their artists/content providers.

They sound like an unfair bunch of music leeches!!!

Double it and you might be talking.....

---

In answer to my original question, the general consensus seems to be 'rip off'. But, there are no negotiations to be had. All the artists on the label get exactly the same deal (there are a lot of 'em, too). Also, the sort of material I've done for them will likely see good sales there, but would get very little elsewhere. Small slice of a big pie vs vice versa. I'm hearing what you're saying, though!

--------------------
There are 10 types of people in this world - 9 who understand binary; the rest are like me.

Quote basilfawlty:

---

Hi All,

I've been given a contract for my new album by a label which states that I get 50p for each album sold in the UK and 35p everywhere else. Is this about right? The label has a big distribution network and the albums (mainly sold in CD form) go for around £10 each.

Any advice much appreciated!

---

How many do you expect to sell (based on the sales figures of other artists on the label)?

Quote R_A:

---

How many do you expect to sell (based on the sales figures of other artists on the label)?

---

They reckon upwards of 2000 per year.

--------------------
There are 10 types of people in this world - 9 who understand binary; the rest are like me.

so they'd gross £20k and you'd get £400 !!! Well.... up to you I guess!!!

Quote narcoman:

---

so they'd gross £20k and you'd get £400 !!! Well.... up to you I guess!!!

---

Yup, thats about the size of it. However, their distributors take a slice, and the stockists, etc. Plus its long-tail - there's no sell-by date on this kind of thing. I totally hear what you're saying, but this is probably the only way this particular album will sell with no marketing budget this end.

--------------------
There are 10 types of people in this world - 9 who understand binary; the rest are like me.

Quote basilfawlty:

---

Plus its long-tail - there's no sell-by date on this kind of thing.

---

So in a few years another... well, another few hundred quid will (or might) roll in.

If you knocked it up in a week and don't care about the music and can't be bothered spending money getting it manufactured yourself then I can understand dumping it on to these people. If it's your pride and joy that you've slaved over and you're going to work hard on helping to promote then I wouldn't let these people anywhere near it. If it's in-between then I'd still release it myself. £400 is just not worth it. Or is it that you want to get the name known? (I presume it's just a one-album deal and you keep the rights to the name.)

Having listened to it, it's never going to sell like Enigma -- Enigma sold a lot because as well as having catchy melodies, people bought it as, er, bedroom music.

Quote Scramble:

---

If it's your pride and joy that you've slaved over and you're going to work hard on helping to promote then I wouldn't let these people anywhere near it. If it's in-between then I'd still release it myself. £400 is just not worth it. Or is it that you want to get the name known? (I presume it's just a one-album deal and you keep the rights to the name.)

Having listened to it, it's never going to sell like Enigma -- Enigma sold a lot because as well as having catchy melodies, people bought it as, er, bedroom music.

---

Well, many thanks for taking the time to have a listen. I'm selling it myself as well - and am in the process of sorting out a meeting with a decent plugger with a view to getting airplay on relevant airwaves.

As for the bedroom, well, not tried it, but I get your point.

--------------------
There are 10 types of people in this world - 9 who understand binary; the rest are like me.

If you can sell over 150 yourself then it becomes financially viable.

I'm reckoning on a cost of about a grand to get at least 500 CDs made including glass mastering and some artwork. (Someone please shout if this old fogey is way out here - but I'm fairly sure that's what it was about 10years ago). So you'd have to see 100 just to break even. Then about another 50 to cover the 400quid you'd make from the record company.

Surely there must be enough of an Electronica scene here in the UK to support that!

--------------------
Veni, Vidi, Aesculi
(I came, I saw, I conkered)

Quote Dave B:

---

If you can sell over 150 yourself then it becomes financially viable.

I'm reckoning on a cost of about a grand to get at least 500 CDs made including glass mastering and some artwork. (Someone please shout if this old fogey is way out here - but I'm fairly sure that's what it was about 10years ago). So you'd have to see 100 just to break even. Then about another 50 to cover the 400quid you'd make from the record company.

Surely there must be enough of an Electronica scene here in the UK to support that!

---

I don't doubt you're right. Under the terms of this deal though I do get to sell physical copies myself so long as I'm not trying to encroach on the label's existing distribution network.

--------------------
There are 10 types of people in this world - 9 who understand binary; the rest are like me.

Then maybe it might be worth negotiating a deal whereby they distribute the physical media, but you retain rights to the digital download version. Then you can do a deal with an aggregator to get it into the more mainstream places. After all, they are counting downloads (which carries no media costs) as the same as an overseas physical sale which seems a tad iffy to me.

I suppose that what I am really talking about is you being the record company and licensing the CD medium to them - rather than signing away the rights to the album. How long is this deal for? When can it be re-negotiated? Also, what constitutes 'their distribution network'? How much wiggle room is there? So, let's say that you play a reasonably known music event - are they going to set up a stall and tell you that that is their territory?

They are expecting to shift just under 5000 units in the first year or two (according to my shaky maths) - that's a LOT to an artist (ok, not Sting or Madonna, etc) and could net you about 15-20k. Niche markets (please forgive the expression) are usually quite tight - only a handful of places (mags/sites) exist where a positive review will affect sales. If you can deal with those, or even the next level of distribution (in my day it was the people who covered different territories) then the record company involved really isn't adding much value except for initial pressing costs.

Of course, all of this is moot if you don't want to do it yourself! I know of one respected musician who released an album of his own on his own label and deemed it a failure because a) it didn't sell in tens of thousands and b) he found that he didn't enjoy being the record company ("I play bass - I'm not a secretary" was his actual quote).



--------------------
Veni, Vidi, Aesculi
(I came, I saw, I conkered)