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Scatamonkey



Joined: 22/02/12
Posts: 51
Where is the Bass???
      #972283 - 25/02/12 07:49 PM
I took the advice of Guy on another post. I have a pair of Cerwin Vega Intense 252s and a pair of Cerwin Vega Intense 118s and in an effort to try and get a bit more bass for the kick Guy suggested I rely more on the tops as well as the bins.

So today I set eveything up in the garage and put some thumpy dance music on to experiment with. I found that even though it was thumping bass in my headphones when I had JUST the 252s on there was virtually NO bass at all.

The signal is coming from an Allen & Heath ZED 22FX desk, into a Behringer FBQ3102 and then to a Numark Dimension 4 amp.

I tried it with the FBQ, then I bypassed it altogether and went straight to the amp. The mids and highs are clear and strong but almost no bass at all. I can induce some bass by cranking the low EQ on the channel strip up full so I at least know the bottom 15s are connected, but now the sound is awful in the headphones.

I have another Dimension 4 running the bins so I tried that to and same result. Both speakers sounsd the same. Almost as is there was a low pass filter on robbing all the bass frequencies from the signal. And these are full range speakers that go from 50 - 20,000HZ.

Are they broke? Are they just rubbish speakers? Or am I just doing something wrong?


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turbodave



Joined: 25/04/08
Posts: 2611
Loc: derbyshire uk
Re: Where is the Bass??? new [Re: Scatamonkey]
      #972287 - 25/02/12 08:20 PM
Hi, without going into a protracted diatribe regarding equipment and its relative merits...if you think bass heavy headphones and bass light speakers you may find the answer. Try different headphones and see, if the problem persists try another environment. There are so many variables that the very last one considered should be equipment failure. Dave

--------------------
My head hurts!


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Scatamonkey



Joined: 22/02/12
Posts: 51
Re: Where is the Bass??? new [Re: Scatamonkey]
      #972290 - 25/02/12 08:32 PM
Headphones are a pair of 20 quid Philips jobbies. Not particularly bass heavy at all. And the speakers have two 15" drivers and a horn. I would expect them to be bass heavy.

To clarify though, in the headphones I am hearing a full range signal, exactly what I would expect to hear, but from the speakers I am hearing only mids and highs but no bass. Like I said it sounds like someone has sneaked a low pass filter in there somewhere.

I have to crank the low EQ up full to even get anywhere near a normal sounding full range signal.

There isn't anything on the desk that I could have missed is there??? There is a low pass on every channel but if that button was in or faulty I would hear it in the headphones too wouldn't I?

I'm gonna pull all that gear out again tomorrow!!!


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Bob Bickerton
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Joined: 20/12/02
Posts: 3711
Loc: Nelson, New Zealand
Re: Where is the Bass??? new [Re: Scatamonkey]
      #972309 - 25/02/12 10:27 PM
Presumably when you run the 252s and 118s together, you have a crossover somewhere between the mixer and the speakers. Sounds like its still switched in when you're running the 252s on their own.

Bob

--------------------
www.bickerton.co.nz


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turbodave



Joined: 25/04/08
Posts: 2611
Loc: derbyshire uk
Re: Where is the Bass??? new [Re: Scatamonkey]
      #972328 - 26/02/12 12:43 AM
Try your speaker polarity on the 15s..it may be that you have red /black on one and black/red on the other, which would thin out the sound somewhat. Dave

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My head hurts!


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Scatamonkey



Joined: 22/02/12
Posts: 51
Re: Where is the Bass??? new [Re: Scatamonkey]
      #972339 - 26/02/12 04:18 AM
Bob - I normally use a Behringer FBQ to give a sub out to the bass amp. It 'should' still give a full range signal to the top amp. However just to be sure I bypassed it altogether and went straight from the desk to the amp. No other crossovers present.

Dave - I use speakons, I have heard that running 2 speakers together with one at the wrong polarity will induce some noise cancellation. But again, I tried one speaker at a time, then both together, different speaker leads, then swapped to the other amp. Always the same sound, very clear and strong but with absolutely no bass.

I tried looking at the manuals for the amps and the speakers in case the output of the amp was at one polarity and the input of the speaker at another but I'm not sure how to check this. They both say 1+ and 1-. I think they're matched but I'm not 100% certain.

I should really check the polarity from the desk to the Behringer to the amp AND to the speaker. What am I looking for though in the manuals just in case the polarity is getting reversed somewhere along the way. And if it was....would that be the cause of a bassless signal????

Thanks again guys for your patience!


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Mike Stranks
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Joined: 03/01/03
Posts: 5401
Loc: Cirencester, UK
Re: Where is the Bass??? new [Re: Scatamonkey]
      #972349 - 26/02/12 09:06 AM
Quote Scatamonkey:

I should really check the polarity from the desk to the Behringer to the amp AND to the speaker. What am I looking for though in the manuals just in case the polarity is getting reversed somewhere along the way. And if it was....would that be the cause of a bassless signal????(empahisis added by M Stranks)



No; only if you end up with the signal at one speaker being at the inverse polarity ("out of phase") to the other and both are running at the same time. (If you think this may be a factor - and your comments suggest that it isn't - then you should be able easily to find a CD or downloads of test-tones and phase-tests etc which will enable you to check this.)

I replied to your post last night, but ended-up deleting it....

I wonder if your perception of 'bass' is what's at the root of this? Are you looking for the "oof!" factor as the bass hits you in the chest or gives an almighty thump? I've been in venues when I've thought the bass sound was very tasty and well-balanced and someone else has strolled by and commented that they "always knew those speakers weren't much good - no bass at all." Subsequent conversation and demonstration of their home system revealed their "hifi" had 15-inch woofers which were set to give trouser-flapping bass. Sounded very unnatural to me, but to him it was normal.

No offence intended... just a thought...

--------------------
The older I get, the better I used to be


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Ed_J90



Joined: 03/12/07
Posts: 899
Re: Where is the Bass??? new [Re: Scatamonkey]
      #972427 - 26/02/12 04:02 PM
Sounds like a phase issue to me too, unplug one bin and see if you get some low end back.

Also where are you crossing over? if there is too much info getting into the bins they wont be as efficient.

Edit: sorry didnt read your 2nd post so ignore top part

Also realise what you have and what they are capable of....

--------------------
J90
Sonic Visions

Edited by Ed_J90 (26/02/12 04:05 PM)


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Scatamonkey



Joined: 22/02/12
Posts: 51
Re: Where is the Bass??? new [Re: Scatamonkey]
      #972449 - 26/02/12 06:26 PM
I spent about 2 hours reading up on phasing and polarities last night. Your right, this would only be an issue if the speakers were wired opposite each other. I dont think this is the case.

Also, this isn't an issue with the bins, but with the full range tops I have. They have 2 15" drivers and a high range horn. Which should be capable of providing a decent amount of bass all by themselves. I'm not after trouser flapping bass. Just a full range signal.

When I say there is no bass...I mean absolutely NO bass. You have to put your ear right against the bottom 15 just to hear anything, but like I said, cranking the bass EQ on the channel strip all the up gets it closer to normal.

This was all just in my garage at fairly low volumes. Is it a power issue? If I increased the volume would the bass start to come in by itself?

I was thinking that maybe the internal crossover was faulty, but normally that would be more present in the horn wouldn't it?


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dmills



Joined: 25/08/06
Posts: 2724
Loc: High Wycombe, UK
Re: Where is the Bass??? new [Re: Scatamonkey]
      #972452 - 26/02/12 06:54 PM
Daft thought, but by any chance are you getting the music into the system via some sort of lead plugged into the headphone socket on a portable music player?

If so, does this lead look something like a 3.5mm mini jack to a single 1/4 inch jack plugged into a line input?

That does NOT work and will sound VERY thin, because the line input socket is usually not stereo but balanced and that results in the system producing only the difference between the two stereo channels.

If pulling the input jack out slightly makes things come right (possibly in mono, but better) then you just need a different input lead that is wired correctly for this application.

Regards, Dan.

--------------------
Audiophiles use phono leads because they are unbalanced people!


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turbodave



Joined: 25/04/08
Posts: 2611
Loc: derbyshire uk
Re: Where is the Bass??? new [Re: dmills]
      #972491 - 26/02/12 10:37 PM
Quote dmills:

Daft thought, but by any chance are you getting the music into the system via some sort of lead plugged into the headphone socket on a portable music player?

If so, does this lead look something like a 3.5mm mini jack to a single 1/4 inch jack plugged into a line input?

That does NOT work and will sound VERY thin, because the line input socket is usually not stereo but balanced and that results in the system producing only the difference between the two stereo channels.

If pulling the input jack out slightly makes things come right (possibly in mono, but better) then you just need a different input lead that is wired correctly for this application.

Regards, Dan.



+1 on that one...those connectors are bobbins!

--------------------
My head hurts!


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turbodave



Joined: 25/04/08
Posts: 2611
Loc: derbyshire uk
Re: Where is the Bass??? new [Re: Scatamonkey]
      #972492 - 26/02/12 10:43 PM
OK..if you wanna get to the bottom of it then plug in the most basic configuration and disconnect the top end. Listen to what you have and if you are not getting anything , look at connections and if they are good , look to replace your drivers...if all other avenues have been attempted. Dave

--------------------
My head hurts!


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Scatamonkey



Joined: 22/02/12
Posts: 51
Re: Where is the Bass??? new [Re: Scatamonkey]
      #972542 - 27/02/12 10:23 AM
Interesting, I was using a Sony MP3 player with a mini jack to two 1/4 jacks plugged into 2 mono channels. If I DO turn the Bass bins on there seems to be a normal full range signal with plenty of bass. Using bins and tops together sound great, but there doesnt seem to be bass going to the tops at all.

I am going to head down to a friends practice room at the weekend and experiment with different speakers, different leads, even a different desk. Every possible combination I can think of to get to the bottom of this.

Thanks again to everyone for your advice!!!


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grab



Joined: 08/07/07
Posts: 3226
Loc: Cambridge, UK
Re: Where is the Bass??? new [Re: Scatamonkey]
      #972567 - 27/02/12 12:16 PM
Quote:

but there doesnt seem to be bass going to the tops at all




If you're using the sub out from the FBQ (or any other crossover), that's the idea.

What you said earlier about "full-range going to the tops" is wrong. The idea is that the tops *ONLY* get the frequencies that the subs aren't doing. So you set your crossover to 100Hz, you can forget about any bass from the tops.

This is the whole point of it. Delivering bass takes a lot of oomph, so you give that to the subs to deal with. Meantime you've now got a whole lot more power free for mids and highs, bcos your tops are not having to do bass.


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Guy Johnson



Joined: 02/05/03
Posts: 4667
Loc: North Pembrokeshire
Re: Where is the Bass??? new [Re: grab]
      #972593 - 27/02/12 01:10 PM
Quote grab:

Quote:

but there doesnt seem to be bass going to the tops at all




If you're using the sub out from the FBQ (or any other crossover), that's the idea.

What you said earlier about "full-range going to the tops" is wrong. The idea is that the tops *ONLY* get the frequencies that the subs aren't doing. So you set your crossover to 100Hz, you can forget about any bass from the tops.

This is the whole point of it. Delivering bass takes a lot of oomph, so you give that to the subs to deal with. Meantime you've now got a whole lot more power free for mids and highs, bcos your tops are not having to do bass.




Actually this is only correct if the tops cannot handle much bass!
With the 'tops' in question having two 15 inch drivers, they are fullrange boxes, and can deal with low frequencies. And deliberately not using those 15s in the OPs context is plain wrong—if you want a decent amount of bass.

MAny people don't seem to realise that the 'crossover' is only part of crossing-over ... There is always the physical crossover of the natural steep bass roll-off in any ported system. The added subs can then, if they go low enough, add the lowest lows, or can just add to the power of the combined system. In which case, the use of a shelf filter or a graphic can be used to lower everything by 2 or 3 DBs, under the mid-low crossover point on the OPs 'tops', to cater for the extra low frequency drivers.

Note ... Almost all subs* must have a low-pass electronic filter on them to prevent the higher frequencies from ruining the sound and polar patterns of the PA as a whole, and from needlessly over-heating the sub driver(s).

* Some subs are of the band-pass variety, and can be fed a fullrange signal; there are a few nice small systems that use these physical crossovers; the bass roll-off of the top speakers, and the rol-loff of all but the bass notes when using a bandpass bin, saving the unnecessary cost and complexity of extra amp channels and electronic crossovers.

There's some great textbooks which clear up the whole murky and fascinating business of speaker design, integration and system radiation patterns, which I've only lightly touched on, and which I must dig out again!

--------------------
where I live


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sulk



Joined: 10/03/11
Posts: 1
Re: Where is the Bass??? new [Re: Scatamonkey]
      #972595 - 27/02/12 01:14 PM
Couldn't help notice your post. You are correct to overlap your sub with your main cabs. Only cut bass to your tops if they are not capable of producing bass on their own.(such as mid horns) Also you would be making big reflex cabs act as open back cabs as the XO point would be above tuning and your overall sound would be too dry and crap. If you didn't know that already -regards


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shufflebeat



Joined: 09/12/07
Posts: 4314
Loc: Manchester, UK
Re: Where is the Bass??? new [Re: Scatamonkey]
      #972611 - 27/02/12 02:11 PM
Sounds to me like your crossover point on the Behringer is set too high.

--------------------
People with black cats shouldn't get black stair carpet.


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shufflebeat



Joined: 09/12/07
Posts: 4314
Loc: Manchester, UK
Re: Where is the Bass??? new [Re: Scatamonkey]
      #972612 - 27/02/12 02:16 PM
Quote Scatamonkey:

...I am hearing only mids and highs but no bass. Like I said it sounds like someone has sneaked a low pass filter in there somewhere.

...There is a low pass on every channel




Unless I misunderstand you that should read 'high pass filter' or 'low cut'

--------------------
People with black cats shouldn't get black stair carpet.


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Scatamonkey



Joined: 22/02/12
Posts: 51
Re: Where is the Bass??? new [Re: Scatamonkey]
      #972620 - 27/02/12 02:55 PM
The Behringer crossover was the first thing I checked. The last thing I did was take it out of the loop altogether.

So it's just Desk (A&H ZED22FX) going to amp (Numark Dimension 4) and then to speakers!

This is the simplest setup I can have and still produce sound, the speakers are 2-way full range and have two 15" drivers and a horn. So SHOULD produce a full range signal with plenty of bass.

To clarify, there were NO crossovers present during the final setup!

Other than whatever Cerwin Vega pass-through circuit boards are built into the cab.

Hitting the PFL switch and listening to the music through the headphones confirms a full clear signal with the channel strip completely flat.

Listening to the same source through the speakers sounds like it is only mids and highs, clear and strong but completely bassless. I can get some bass but only by cranking the Low EQ ALL the way up.


Hence the confusion!


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Sheriton



Joined: 27/01/03
Posts: 1555
Loc: Leicester, UK
Re: Where is the Bass??? new [Re: Scatamonkey]
      #972625 - 27/02/12 03:03 PM
Do you have access to a smartphone that can run a freebie spectrum analyser app? Whilst not exactly a high-end measurement tool, it should give you some idea of the frequency below which the bass is dropping off. In my mind, from your description, it's 200-300Hz, indicating a definite problem. If it's actually ~80Hz, that's perhaps just the way those cabs act. Without being able to actually hear what's going on, it's almost impossible to diagnose "no bass".
You'll also need a source of pink noise (another smartphone / laptop / test CD etc.)

--------------------
There's nothing we can't face... Except for bunnies


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Mike Stranks
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Joined: 03/01/03
Posts: 5401
Loc: Cirencester, UK
Re: Where is the Bass??? new [Re: Scatamonkey]
      #972644 - 27/02/12 04:37 PM
So let's think about the amp and its connections...

What leads are you using from the mixer to the amp - XLR-XLR or XLR-jack? If XLR-jack did you make them or buy them?

You're using the speakon connectors designated CH-A and CH-B? If not, what?

None of the 'Sub', 'Mono' or 'Bridge' LEDs on the front is lit?

None of the DIP switches is 'on'?

--------------------
The older I get, the better I used to be


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grab



Joined: 08/07/07
Posts: 3226
Loc: Cambridge, UK
Re: Where is the Bass??? new [Re: Scatamonkey]
      #972647 - 27/02/12 05:10 PM
Can you confirm how you've connected the subs and tops to the amp?

First problem is that many passive subs have a built-in passive crossover. You can normally parallel up tops on either Speakon. But for these subs, one Speakon will take in the full-range input, and the other Speakon will spit out a top-only signal. So if you stick the amp output into the crossover-output Speakon, you're putting everything through this filter and things are going to go rather strange. I can't quickly find a manual for the sub, but it's very common to see this. Some subs have a switch to turn this off, but some don't.

Also think about the amp outputs. Ideally you probably want four separate amp channels, one for each speaker. If you only have two amp channels, you might want to run in mono, with one amp channel driving the tops and the other driving the subs. If your sub has a built-in crossover then you can have one amp channel running the sub and top on one side - but unless the sub/top sensitivities (and impedances!) match up then you're likely to not get a nice even response. You can try to frig around it with EQ, but honestly it's better just to drive the tops and subs from separate channels and be able to properly control their relative levels. If you've got two Numark amps then of course you're sorted for this.


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Scatamonkey



Joined: 22/02/12
Posts: 51
Re: Where is the Bass??? new [Re: Scatamonkey]
      #972656 - 27/02/12 05:51 PM
Grab

My normal setup is one amp in stereo powering a top off each channel, then the other amp in bridged mono powering the two subs daisy chained together. With both amps and all 4 speakers together the sound is great, full and rich but maybe just slighly lacking in bottom end punch.

However something Guy mentioned in another post about the sound the tops were producing on their OWN started this thread off.

The problem is only with the full range tops, they are Cerwin Vega Intense 252's, about 4 foot tall and with two 15" drivers and a horn.


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Scatamonkey



Joined: 22/02/12
Posts: 51
Re: Where is the Bass??? new [Re: Mike Stranks]
      #972658 - 27/02/12 06:01 PM
Desk to the amps - XLR to XLR - 1 meter - bought them.

Using Speakon channels A & B out of the amp.

I think I have all the Dip switches on, Low cut, 50 HZ cut and the Limiter.


[ ****** ]!....Low cut!, how low is the low cut though??? I thought it would be under 50 Hz or so! Right, I'm off to investigate how low is low !!!!! Cuz if its everything under 200HZ or so then that's the problem solved!!!!!


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Scatamonkey



Joined: 22/02/12
Posts: 51
Re: Where is the Bass??? new [Re: Scatamonkey]
      #972662 - 27/02/12 06:11 PM
2-5: LOW CUT FILTER
The low-cut filter removes ultra-low frequencies from the audio signal. Most amplifier power is consumed by low
frequencies and most speaker woofer damage is caused by them. Activating this switch ensures that more power
can go to the middle frequencies and there is less chance for audio clipping.

3-4: 50HZ/30HZ roll off
If low cut filtering is activated, then the roll off frequency should be determined. At 30Hz, all audio below 30Hz will
be removed, at 50Hz more audio will be removed because all audio below 50Hz will be removed.

I do have this activated, set at 50HZ roll Off as the speakers have an operating range of 50HZ to 20,000HZ.


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Guy Johnson



Joined: 02/05/03
Posts: 4667
Loc: North Pembrokeshire
Re: Where is the Bass??? new [Re: Scatamonkey]
      #972668 - 27/02/12 06:59 PM
I would set the cut at 30.

As for the main speakers, they may need the XLR to be connected 1+ and 2+ linked, and 1- and 2- linked. They'd do that to allow the speakers to be bi-amped perhaps. So if that's the case, and your XLR is only a two-way one rather than a 4-way one, then you'd only be connecting to the top/mid part of the crossover.

Maybe. But you said earlier that there was a small amount of noise from the 15s.

There is bugger all tech info on the Cerwin Vega website. So maybe you can unscrew the connector plate or a 15, and check the internal connections.

Also you can do a battery test, an A size 1.5v battery across the terminals (make a test XLR; always useful to have) and see if the cones move. Should move outwards when + is connected to the red wire, which should be connected to 1 and 2+, and the black wire to 1 and 2- .

--------------------
where I live


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Scatamonkey



Joined: 22/02/12
Posts: 51
Re: Where is the Bass??? new [Re: Scatamonkey]
      #972760 - 28/02/12 10:09 AM
Slightly confused Guy,

I have XLR leads connecting the desk to the amps, but then I have Speakons connecting the amps to the speakers.

Is it the XLRs or the speakons you think might be wired 2 way instead of 4 way.

I will look for technical data for you, I did find a data sheet before but it was well hidden!


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Scatamonkey



Joined: 22/02/12
Posts: 51
Re: Where is the Bass??? new [Re: Scatamonkey]
      #972767 - 28/02/12 10:17 AM
www.cerwinvega.com/manuals/pro/intense_manual.pdf

http://www.numark.com/images/product_downloads/dimension4_referencemanual. pdf

http://www.allen-heath.com/uk/products/pages/productdetails.aspx?CatId=ZED Series&ProductId=ZED22FX

All the data on the 3 parts of this puzzle !!!


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Guy Johnson



Joined: 02/05/03
Posts: 4667
Loc: North Pembrokeshire
Re: Where is the Bass??? new [Re: Scatamonkey]
      #972789 - 28/02/12 11:51 AM
Yes, I've seen that PDF there's not a lot of detailed info in that PDF ... such as rear views, diagrams etc.
Again, the amp PDF doesn't reveal what the dip-switch settings are. Ho-hum.

Anyway, Speakon connectors for speakers ... This shows the two-pole connetions I mentioned. You can see the unused 2+ and 2- connectors.



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where I live


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Scatamonkey



Joined: 22/02/12
Posts: 51
Re: Where is the Bass??? new [Re: Scatamonkey]
      #972795 - 28/02/12 12:15 PM
So If my speakons are like this, what should I do with them? Buy 4 core speakons?

Also the dip switchs do the follwing

1 & 6 to activate the limiter
2 & 5 to activate Low Cut
3 & 4 to select between 30HZ and 50HZ low cut once activated.

I really wish all XLR and speakon connections were standardised, then this wouldn't even be an issue!


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Scatamonkey



Joined: 22/02/12
Posts: 51
Re: Where is the Bass??? new [Re: Scatamonkey]
      #972798 - 28/02/12 12:27 PM
Balanced Inputs- Connect a balanced signal through XLR input connectors. These should be used for all long cable
runs. Please note: Pin 1 Ground, Pin 2 Positive (+), Pin 3 Negative (-).

SPEAKON Output – For better contact security, use of these outputs is strongly recommended in all applications,
especially mobile systems. Do not use these outputs simultaneously with the output terminals, only alternatively. Note
the correct pin designation for the used speakon connectors: pos=1 + / neg = 1- / 2+, 2- not connected.

This is taken from the Numark manual for the amplifier.


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Scatamonkey



Joined: 22/02/12
Posts: 51
Re: Where is the Bass??? new [Re: Scatamonkey]
      #972801 - 28/02/12 12:33 PM
Taken from the Cerwin Vega data sheet!

FULL RANGE MODELS (INT-152, INT-252): These models are equipped with both a 4 pin Speakon connector and two 1/4” phone jack inputs. The 4-pin Speakon connector is configured so that 1+ and 1-
and the 2+ and 2- pins both connect to the input (they are in parallel). The 1/4” phone inputs are also paralleled together, and can be used to daisy chain to another speaker (see below).

SUBWOOFER (INT-118S): This model also uses both 4 pin Speakon connectors and 1/4” phone jack inputs. As in the case of the INT-152 and the INT-252, the 1+ and the 1- of the speakon are paralleled
with the 2+, 2- inputs, so either one will work. These are also paralleled with the 1/4” phone inputs, so that it can be passed through, or daisy chained to another speaker (See below).

DAISY-CHAINING SPEAKERS: Since the INT-152 is equipped with two 1/4” input terminals that is internally connected in parallel, it is possible to daisy chain speakers by connecting the output of the power
amplifier to one 1/4” phone jack, and a second speaker system to the other phone jack. The same is true for the INT-118S.
As mentioned above, the INT-152 and INT-118S have a nominal impedance of 8ohms. Since most professional power amplifiers are designed to provide stable performance at a load impedance of 4ohms or
8ohms, Cerwin-Vega recommends that no more than two 8ohms speaker systems be daisy-chained together. This will allow the amplifier to operate properly and avoid overheating. (Since the INT-252 has a
nominal impedance of below 8ohms, it is not recommended to daisy chain.)

LIGHTBULB PROTECTION CIRCUIT: Your Intense! speaker systems are equipped with a power-limiting circuit on the compression driver, to avoid damage to the device if overdriven. If this happens, a small
flicker of light is potentially visible through the front port vents. If this happens, do not panic. What is happening is that instead of this power going directly to the compression driver (where it would potentially
damage it) it is “absorbed” by a high current light bulb, which dissipates this power by converting it into light.



It says that the speaker does have a 4 pin speakon plug like you thought, but it seems to suggest it is wired that way only to facilitate the daisy chaining of other speakers.


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Guy Johnson



Joined: 02/05/03
Posts: 4667
Loc: North Pembrokeshire
Re: Where is the Bass??? new [Re: Scatamonkey]
      #972806 - 28/02/12 12:46 PM
Oops. Well spotted!

Well, there goes that theory. Don't worry about the speakons, then.

--------------------
where I live


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shufflebeat



Joined: 09/12/07
Posts: 4314
Loc: Manchester, UK
Re: Where is the Bass??? new [Re: Scatamonkey]
      #972809 - 28/02/12 01:03 PM
Do you have access to another amp/speakers to help isolate the problem?

--------------------
People with black cats shouldn't get black stair carpet.


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Scatamonkey



Joined: 22/02/12
Posts: 51
Re: Where is the Bass??? new [Re: Scatamonkey]
      #972825 - 28/02/12 02:12 PM
Yeah, I have a mate with a full PA in his practice room, I was talking to him about this too and this weekend I'm going to head down there and start interchanging amps and speakers and even the desk to help isolate what is going on!

Thanks again to everyone for their input!!! Balanced or otherwise!!!


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shufflebeat



Joined: 09/12/07
Posts: 4314
Loc: Manchester, UK
Re: Where is the Bass??? new [Re: Scatamonkey]
      #972852 - 28/02/12 03:37 PM
Good choice.

Good luck and more (phantom) power to your elbow.

--------------------
People with black cats shouldn't get black stair carpet.


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MarkPAman



Joined: 06/04/06
Posts: 596
Loc: Somewhere between Portsmouth &...
Re: Where is the Bass??? new [Re: Guy Johnson]
      #972880 - 28/02/12 05:44 PM
Quote Guy Johnson:


Anyway, Speakon connectors for speakers ... This shows the two-pole connetions I mentioned. You can see the unused 2+ and 2- connectors.






I think that picture actually shows 1- and 2- unused.

Wiring like that may on some amplifiers produce a reverse polarity effect (with the usual loss of bass)


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Guy Johnson



Joined: 02/05/03
Posts: 4667
Loc: North Pembrokeshire
Re: Where is the Bass??? new [Re: Scatamonkey]
      #972904 - 28/02/12 07:47 PM
Given the impossibility of looking at the tiny lettering and the text I included, we can assume the wiring as is said, and not add too much confusion? It was such a sexy picture, much nicer than this!



--------------------
where I live


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Scatamonkey



Joined: 22/02/12
Posts: 51
Re: Where is the Bass??? new [Re: Scatamonkey]
      #973226 - 01/03/12 12:54 AM
Some Progress!!!

I set everything up in the garage tonight again and to be honest, the speakers are not as completely bass absent as I thought. The other night I went from having the 18 bins running to not running to running again so I think my ears were exaggerating the change a bit.

So tonight, no bins at all. I started with the Behringer FBQ on and in the signal path and I think you guys are gonna shout at me after this...

When I bought these speakers the manual said they had a frequency range of 50 to 20,000HZ, so thinking I was protecting them, the first thing I did was set the low and high cut on the FBQ from 50 to 20,000. To be extra careful I also pulled the sliders on the 31 band EQ ALL the way down from 20HZ - 50HZ. (The first four at the left hand side)

Tonight I thought, "I wonder how much music is hiding down in those frequencies?" So I turned the Low Cut pot all the way off, and put all the sliders back in the middle...and low and behold, the speakers started to sound a lot bassier. My mistake and I put my hand up to it. The first 2 didn't change the sound much but I was really surprised by how much 31.5 and 40 did!

However, they still didnt sound fantastic, so I took the 1900 watt amp out of the loop and plugged a 150 watt head (which is worth about 50 quid) in instead and it definitely sounded fuller and with more bottom end. To directly compare I had one speaker running off the big amp and the other off the little one. I panned between them over a couple of songs, 2 cigarettes and much head scratching. The little cheapo amp definitely had more bass!

So my question is this, with eveything else being equal, do different amps produce different tones? Have you experienced one amp being more bottom heavy than another? Cuz I thought an amps job was just to make the signal louder...period! Not effect the sound EQ wise!!!


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Bob Bickerton
active member


Joined: 20/12/02
Posts: 3711
Loc: Nelson, New Zealand
Re: Where is the Bass??? new [Re: Scatamonkey]
      #973235 - 01/03/12 05:21 AM
OK. Now take the low cut filter out of the Numark amp all together and compare the two amps with no Behringer patched in.

It's possible the Low Cut filter on the Numark is set too high.

Bob

--------------------
www.bickerton.co.nz


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Scatamonkey



Joined: 22/02/12
Posts: 51
Re: Where is the Bass??? new [Re: Scatamonkey]
      #973268 - 01/03/12 10:08 AM
Oh, I forgot to mention that Bob, I changed the setting ffrom 50 to 30 HZ as per Guys advice.

Are you suggesting I turn it off altogether?


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Scatamonkey



Joined: 22/02/12
Posts: 51
Re: Where is the Bass??? new [Re: Scatamonkey]
      #973280 - 01/03/12 10:41 AM
Sorry Bob, just re-read your post and I think you used the exact words "turn off altogether"

Just 2 questions to summarise though,

1. Do different amps produce different tones?

2. Does everyone take those range figures seriously? Am I the only one cutting the frequencies so strigently.


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Guy Johnson



Joined: 02/05/03
Posts: 4667
Loc: North Pembrokeshire
Re: Where is the Bass??? new [Re: Scatamonkey]
      #973292 - 01/03/12 11:27 AM
OMG, I was assuming you had everything flat! No wonder! Anyway, just shows what testing will reveal. The head amp may well not be flat; may emphasise bass amongst other things, even when set flat.

There's no need to use more than one low cut filter, and not even that if you're careful, and use your meters on the kick, bass, keyboards, sampler ... anything that can make a lot of lows.

--------------------
where I live


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shufflebeat



Joined: 09/12/07
Posts: 4314
Loc: Manchester, UK
Re: Where is the Bass??? new [Re: Scatamonkey]
      #973318 - 01/03/12 12:33 PM
Quote Scatamonkey:

The Behringer crossover was the first thing I checked. The last thing I did was take it out of the loop altogether.

So it's just Desk (A&H ZED22FX) going to amp (Numark Dimension 4) and then to speakers!

This is the simplest setup I can have and still produce sound, the speakers are 2-way full range and have two 15" drivers and a horn. So SHOULD produce a full range signal with plenty of bass.

To clarify, there were NO crossovers present during the final setup!





Quote Scatamonkey:



Tonight I thought, "I wonder how much music is hiding down in those frequencies?" So I turned the Low Cut pot all the way off, and put all the sliders back in the middle...and low and behold, the speakers started to sound a lot bassier.




Which is it?

--------------------
People with black cats shouldn't get black stair carpet.


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Scatamonkey



Joined: 22/02/12
Posts: 51
Re: Where is the Bass??? new [Re: Scatamonkey]
      #973323 - 01/03/12 12:43 PM
Okay Guy, so if it were your system would you....Turn off the Low Cut facility on the amp altogether AND turn off the low cut facility on the Behringer ? And just pull down the first 2 sliders, I think they are 20 and 25HZ ?

I still think I am fundamentally misunderstanding the speaker spec sheet. It says it has a range of 50 - 20,000HZ.....but....when listening to say dance music I brought the 40 HZ up and then the 31.5 and there is quite a substantial bit of low bass goodness down there.

I turned the bins on and they sound a hell of a lot beefier with the extra low frequencies and with the crossover down around 100-120HZ! Although, the trade off being, the amp is having to work a lot harder to reproduce those low frequencies. Without touching the volume, simply pushing up those 2 sliders shows a significant increase on the signal meter on the amp.

I still think I need a bigger amp for those bins!


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MarkPAman



Joined: 06/04/06
Posts: 596
Loc: Somewhere between Portsmouth &...
Re: Where is the Bass??? new [Re: Scatamonkey]
      #973352 - 01/03/12 01:44 PM
From what I can find, the spec sheet for those speakers gives 57Hz as the -3dB point and 44Hz as the -10 point.

So your 50Hz figure is probably somewhere like 6dB down. It does not mean that the speaker does nothing below this point - what is happening is that the speaker is much less efficient at these frequencies. If you feed it a signal with a boost of 6dB at 50Hz it will bring the volume at that frequency (range) back up. Similarly a 10dB boost at 44Hz.

However, that boost as asking a lot more from the amp, which will then start to run out of headroom, so it's not a particularly good way to run things. This is where you need your subs to take over.

So if it were me, with that equipment, I'd use the HPF of the amp for your top cabs. This will stop the amp from using power that the speakers are not making efficient use of. I'd decide between the 30Hz & 50Hz by listening (& watching the amp's clip lights), though I suspect I'd end up at 50Hz. Then the subs can be set up to take over where the tops give up.

Don't try to use the sliders on the graphic to turn it into some kind of crossover (something i've seen quite a few people do - it does not work), but I would use the HPF its got to avoid feeding the sub amp with anything below the useful range of your subs.


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Scatamonkey



Joined: 22/02/12
Posts: 51
Re: Where is the Bass??? new [Re: Scatamonkey]
      #973373 - 01/03/12 02:38 PM
Thanks Mark, its all starting to make a lot more sense. I WAS using the sliders...and the Low and High pass filters on the Behringer AND the Low cut set to 50 on the top amp.

I realise now that using the sliders was also robbing the bins off those lower frequencies too.

When a speaker manufacturer gives you the power figures, do they take those lower frequencies into account. What I mean is, if I DID boost those lower frequencies by 6 and 10db on the bins to bring them out at the same SPL as the other frequencies - does that equate to the 500 watt program power on the spec sheet?

I imagine it would be a lot more and that those figures are calculated on a flat EQ!

Do all you sound men out there use much of those low frequencies for a normal band setup?

I mean below 50HZ?

Isn't it just sucking all the power from your amps?


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grab



Joined: 08/07/07
Posts: 3226
Loc: Cambridge, UK
Re: Where is the Bass??? new [Re: Scatamonkey]
      #973384 - 01/03/12 03:01 PM
Quote:

Isn't it just sucking all the power from your amps?




Not if you've got subs or full-ranges that can handle it. Or rather, it *is* sucking power, but that power is going into stuff that people can hear.

Exactly how low you go will depend on your subs. You'd be lucky to get anything significant at 35Hz from most subs that you can fit in a car. (Sure there's exceptions - but they're exceptional...)


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Scatamonkey



Joined: 22/02/12
Posts: 51
Re: Where is the Bass??? new [Re: Scatamonkey]
      #973388 - 01/03/12 03:09 PM
Okay Grab, so would you concentrate on everything above,say, 40 HZ....I'm not sure if I'm explaning myself right. The power required to generate low frequencies seems to be almost exponential the lower you try to go.

So for my system, would you simply forgo those frequencies to give you more headroom for the higher frequencies - 40 - 120HZ.....this is just the bass bins I'm talking about!


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grab



Joined: 08/07/07
Posts: 3226
Loc: Cambridge, UK
Re: Where is the Bass??? new [Re: Scatamonkey]
      #973414 - 01/03/12 04:23 PM
You forego those frequencies because all they're doing is generating a little warmth in the speaker coil, not actually producing anything audible. It's wasted power. If you don't waste that power, there's more left for frequencies that you *can* hear.


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Scatamonkey



Joined: 22/02/12
Posts: 51
Re: Where is the Bass??? new [Re: Scatamonkey]
      #973431 - 01/03/12 05:37 PM
Awesome advice from everyone - I think Ive absorbed all I can on this subject, I'm still a little shocked that an amp also comes with its own emphasis. It actually works really well in my setup. But If I tried to use my tops by themselves I would have to push the bottom end a bit.

I formally invite you all over to Derry for the Jazz festival which is at the end of April start of May - some of the best jazz bands you will ever hear from all parts of the world will be attending and it lasts for four days !!!!

Next project - shopping for an a new amp...a cheaper version of a Powersoft digital amp would be nice !!!!!


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shufflebeat



Joined: 09/12/07
Posts: 4314
Loc: Manchester, UK
Re: Where is the Bass??? new [Re: Scatamonkey]
      #973455 - 01/03/12 08:17 PM
You might be surprised what you can find in that second hand shop on Shipquay St.

--------------------
People with black cats shouldn't get black stair carpet.


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Scatamonkey



Joined: 22/02/12
Posts: 51
Re: Where is the Bass??? new [Re: Scatamonkey]
      #973476 - 01/03/12 09:40 PM
Shufflebeat!!!! You know Derry better than some of the locals...leading me to believe your not a Mancunian by birth.

I lived over there for about 5 years laying in a band called 'Jist'

We played loads of venues over there, The Manchester Academy and The Roadhouse being 2 of my favourites. But one of the most enjoyable gigs was in The Revise in Chorlton. The night was run by a dude from Belfast. Our "P.A." consisted of 2 of the oldest and most knackered speakers you've ever seen running off an old guitar valve head!

Luckily the only thing it had to deal with was our lead singer and he had so much volume he didnt need a mic half the time!!! Ah good memories, I actually have a recording of that gig that was recorded through a tiny condenser lapel mic onto a Sony minidisc.

Considering the equipment used the recording turned out surprisingly listenable to!!!


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James PerrettModerator



Joined: 10/09/01
Posts: 11335
Loc: The wilds of Hampshire
Re: Where is the Bass??? new [Re: Scatamonkey]
      #973562 - 02/03/12 11:20 AM
Graphic eq bands always interact unless you are using very small cuts and boosts. If your graphic eq sliders are at full cut they could easily be affecting signals an octave or more either side of the centre frequency.

Amps can certainly sound slightly different although it could be a slight roll off of the top end on the cheaper amp that makes you think that it has more bass.

James.

--------------------
JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.co.uk


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Scatamonkey



Joined: 22/02/12
Posts: 51
Re: Where is the Bass??? new [Re: Scatamonkey]
      #973635 - 02/03/12 04:33 PM
This next question is the sort that always gets you guys in a debate.

I'm planning to give those bass bins a Numark amp each - 1300 watts @ 8 ohms, I don't like always being at or near the point of clipping so that should give me loads of power and loads of headroom.

So now I need to buy an amp to run the full range tops, they are 500 watt program @ 4 ohms, so Im looking for an amp to provide at least 750 - 1000 watts per channel @ 4 ohms.

Suggestions please....the bestest cheapest amp to give me this power. Money is definitely tight as I wanna upgrade the monitors too....and my van!!!


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Scatamonkey



Joined: 22/02/12
Posts: 51
Re: Where is the Bass??? new [Re: Scatamonkey]
      #973643 - 02/03/12 04:51 PM
There is a Crown XLS2500 on DV247.com for 583 quid. 775 watts per channel @ 4 ohms.

That seems like a pretty good benchmark, the equivalent QSC RMX2450 only puts out 650 watts per channel and is 16 quid dearer!

How are these companies working these figures out - my Numark is 1900 watts max, but claims 660 watts per channel @ 4 ohms. The QSC is 2400 watts but only puts out 650 ???

I just looked at another page quoting power figures for the QSC, it says 650 watts from 20HZ - 20KHZ and then 750 watts at 1KHZ.

Which figure do you guys work from???


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Scatamonkey



Joined: 22/02/12
Posts: 51
Re: Where is the Bass??? new [Re: Scatamonkey]
      #973645 - 02/03/12 04:56 PM
Sorry another question, before you have even answered the last, are Samson amplifiers any good? What is a Class H amp? Better or worse that a Class D?

Samson SX3200 gives 1100 watts per channel @ 4 ohms and is only 434 quid !!!!

This could be my next purchase unless someone out there tells me Samson are rubbish!


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Scatamonkey



Joined: 22/02/12
Posts: 51
Re: Where is the Bass??? new [Re: Scatamonkey]
      #973647 - 02/03/12 05:10 PM
I know the SOS Forum stands divided on this but....

How about a Behringer EPX3000 switch mode amp, 900 watts per channel @ 4 Ohms for 295 bucks!!!


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James PerrettModerator



Joined: 10/09/01
Posts: 11335
Loc: The wilds of Hampshire
Re: Where is the Bass??? new [Re: Scatamonkey]
      #973656 - 02/03/12 05:47 PM
Behringer and the Thomann T.Amp range seem to be recommended budget amps if you can't afford anything better. I've used the QSC RMX range for industrial applications and they seem to be more rugged than cheaper amps although they're heavy.

James.

--------------------
JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.co.uk


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Scatamonkey



Joined: 22/02/12
Posts: 51
Re: Where is the Bass??? new [Re: Scatamonkey]
      #973699 - 02/03/12 09:32 PM
Just looking at the T.amp D3400, 2 X 1800 watts @ 4 ohms for 399 quid. Thats a lot more power than I need but headroom is what we're after isn't.

In an emergency that thing could just about power my whole rig!


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Bob Bickerton
active member


Joined: 20/12/02
Posts: 3711
Loc: Nelson, New Zealand
Re: Where is the Bass??? new [Re: Scatamonkey]
      #973708 - 02/03/12 10:07 PM
I use QSC amps pretty much exclusively, but happen to have a Samson SX3200 and have had no issues with it. If this is a professional application, I wouldn't settle for anything less than Crown or QSC. Half my Behringer stuff failed, the other half had little resale value when I decided to quite that brand entirely. Of course a cheap brand MAY work, but MAY and PROFESSIONAL are words that do not mix!

I suggest you check out and read ( you haven't already) the very good tech notes articles from the old 'Performing Musician' mag which are available here: Performing Magazine

Bob

--------------------
www.bickerton.co.nz


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Guy Johnson



Joined: 02/05/03
Posts: 4667
Loc: North Pembrokeshire
Re: Where is the Bass??? new [Re: Scatamonkey]
      #973733 - 03/03/12 01:08 AM
Try your kit now it's sorted, with those 4x15s and 2x18s now working properly. Forget new amps. Remember the loudness vs. power equation.

--------------------
where I live


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Scatamonkey



Joined: 22/02/12
Posts: 51
Re: Where is the Bass??? new [Re: Scatamonkey]
      #974086 - 05/03/12 10:21 AM
I did a wedding at the weekend there, band plus DJing. Sound was much improved, with the extra low end the kick drum sounded a lot boomier. Not in a nice way but then it was a circular room which sounded very reverby anyway. With the whole band playing the sound was great. Weirdly, I noticed the bass amp didnt seem to run as hot as before. I had it rnning down to 31.5 HZ but I also brought the crossover down to around 100 - 120 HZ. Maybe running in a more concentrated band of frequencies is easier on the amp!

Guy, although I don't "need" new or different amps, buying a new one is more for peace of mind. I dont have a spare and have been gigging those Numarks flat out for about 3 and a half years.

I would rather be running 3 amps on half power than 2 at full power! Plus, with 3, if one fails I know I can still achieve a full sound with any of the remaining 2!


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Guy Johnson



Joined: 02/05/03
Posts: 4667
Loc: North Pembrokeshire
Re: Where is the Bass??? new [Re: Scatamonkey]
      #974102 - 05/03/12 10:55 AM
That's a very sensible argument about the new amp!

--------------------
where I live


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Scatamonkey



Joined: 22/02/12
Posts: 51
Re: Where is the Bass??? new [Re: Scatamonkey]
      #974122 - 05/03/12 11:41 AM
What do you think Guy, the Samson SX3200 or The T.amp D3400 ???


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Guy Johnson



Joined: 02/05/03
Posts: 4667
Loc: North Pembrokeshire
Re: Where is the Bass??? new [Re: Scatamonkey]
      #974261 - 05/03/12 08:27 PM
I'm not up on amps at the moment, but I'd go for a class D switch-mode job.

There will be people here who've bought amps much more recently, who'll know more, and you could check out the LAB lounge forum. They are helpful and more oriented to live sound, though it's American, so they won't have Thomann! And, they can be frosty at first...

Worth checking out the second-hand market, too.

And remember to get an amp with loads of power, and one with built-in limiting!

--------------------
where I live


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grab



Joined: 08/07/07
Posts: 3226
Loc: Cambridge, UK
Re: Where is the Bass??? new [Re: Guy Johnson]
      #974343 - 06/03/12 10:06 AM
I thought I'd heard iffy reports about those Thomann digital amps, so I googled.

http://forum.speakerplans.com/tamp-d3400-review_topic11188.html

Hmm...

OTOH the Thomann TA2400 is pretty bulletproof. They've got an old-school power supply so it's heavy as hell, but it does means you can push it hard and it'll just keep on going. So long as you don't have a bad one anyway (always an issue with made-in-China), but if it lasts the first couple of months then it's probably going to run forever. Apparently most of the lower-end amps at this rating (this one, W-Audio, etc.) are all actually the same amp with different badges on, so might as well get the one with the best price tag.

The Thomann TSA2200 isn't as solid though - it's a lot lighter with the switch-mode power supply, but apparently this power supply isn't actually man enough for the power it's supposed to be putting out, so there have been reliability problems reported with it.


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