So... I just replaced my Mackie 824s with a pair of VXT 8s. It was a rather rushed choice as one of our 824s packed in during a session and we needed to replace them for the following day. I'd used VXTs in another studio and was pleased with how they translated, so I've always had my eye on them and went ahead and ordered from DV.

That was on the 8th of Feb so 26 days ago. Today, I thought someone's amp was rattling like mad somewhere but low and behold, it turns out to be the right monitor! ... Seems to be the tweeter (or tweeter amp?) A very fizzy distortion that even sounds digital. Desk outputs have been swapped round but the same monitor has the same problem.

So now I'm back where I was 26 days ago!

I'm guessing (hoping) I'll be covered for returns at DV (although it could prove a headache like it has in the past!) and it was purchase on a credit card. But now, I'm wondering if i even like the VXTs at all! Particularly after this. And having to return them asap and get replacements asap (in the same price range) is stressing me out somewhat!

The main, perhaps only thing I don't really like about the VXTs is they do seem a tad fatiguing to work on after a while -something people I've heard mentioned in the past. I do like the richness and apparent tightness of the low end on them though.

I'm completely unprepared for this but I really need to get replacements ordered by tomorrow! At least I had some previous experience with the VXTs but I have no idea what else to look at in the £900 bracket. Monitors haven't been something I've paid much attention to. Once you've got the ones you want, that's kind of it. Unlike preamps etc where you're constantly keeping up with them and know what's out there.

So... Queue horrible, cliche question.... What active, accurate monitors are out there for £900ish that i should consider? Really pushed to go beyond 900 but still keen to hear any thoughts.

Thanks guys.

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http://www.loverslanestudios.co.uk

At that sort of price I would go for the Neumann KH120A - retail at £1,199 a pair (£599.50 each) including VAT (so, if you are VAT registered.......)

Not sure what the street price is - but these do seem to be the top of the tree at the moment in this price bracket.

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John - Sound-Link ProAudio
President - Federation Internationale des Chasseurs de Sons

I'd +1 that. Although they are physically small they kick well above their size and the quality is very impressive, bery neutral, and not at all fatiguing. And if you need more volume or bottom end, a matching sub can be added later.

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Thanks guys, but this is horrible! . I'm shopping completely in the dark. And even just going over by £100 at £1,119 isn't going to be easy! We've lost out on a lot of work because of this (session cancelled today and I'm sure tomorrow may be the same)

Funnily enough the Neumanns are among the only monitors that have caught my attention lately! Intriguing that you should mention them now too.

My only worry now is - I've seen a few references to the sub... Is that really needed or are they pleasing enough on their own in the bottom end? The bottom is something I really need as I can be flicking from a Rock/Pop project to Electronic, bass heavy/subby stuff all the time.



ADVICE PLEASE - Do you think I have enough time to sit on this for the afternoon before contacting DV? We took receipt of the KRKs 27 days ago and payment went through 29 days ago. I'd like to have a plan in my head before getting in touch.

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http://www.loverslanestudios.co.uk

I would contact DV. 4 weeks isn't reasonable wear and tear.

Maybe consider the AE22s? Might not have enough low end for your applications, but certainly a good monitor.

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http://soundcloud.com/richie-royale
http://www.mixcrate.com/richieroyale

Quote Richie Royale:

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I would contact DV. 4 weeks isn't reasonable wear and tear.

Maybe consider the AE22s? Might not have enough low end for your applications, but certainly a good monitor.

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Thanks Rich. Yeah its not on at all. I'll need to bite my tongue as there was a big problem with ordering the KRKs from them in the first place. Its maybe not DVs fault, I know the buck ultimately stops with KRK, but the seller has to assume some responsibility too.

So the AE22s are a bit bass light you think?

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http://www.loverslanestudios.co.uk

I should have said its a balance of say 70/30 between Rock/Pop and the Really subby, electro work that I get so I'm not a complete bass head 100% of the time EDIT - oohhh.... just saw the 22s only go down to 60hz. That may be an issue. Mind you... At least they actually HAVE some numbers with the,m. What do the Neumanns go down to?

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http://www.loverslanestudios.co.uk

Edited by Persuazion (05/03/12 11:55 AM)

It depends if you want something that flaps the trousers and reorganises the internal organs of you and your clients, of if you want something that allows you to hear whats going on and deal with it. Both the AE22 and the KH120 have a decent bass response -- I wouldn't describe either as bass light -- and both will let you hear exactly what's going on. But neither will blow dry your hair each time the kick drum is thumped -- at least not without a sub.

To my ears, KRKs tend to be a bit boom and tizz, with an emphasis on both that makes them initially impressive but ultimately fatiguing. The KH120s and the AE22s are more honest speakers, for slightly different reasons. I know plenty of people who are happy mixing rock/pop on both without issue.

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Thanks Hugh.

I know its all numbers on paper but I'm a tad worried... The VXTs go all the way down to 37hz. Thats a pretty major drop from only 60 odd hz. I know its different on test so, do you think I'll hear a major drop in the bottom end with either the AEs or Neumanns compared to the VXTs?

It's using sub kicks, sculpting sub basses etc that I'm worried about. I've used KRK Rokits (the biggest they do. 6s?) and just couldn't use them without a sub as I couldn't tell what was going on down there.

I also need to get on to DV as soon as I can think of a suitable replacement!

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http://www.loverslanestudios.co.uk

Why have you not already called DV to see if they can ship out a replacement VXT on special delivery for tomorrow?

I should also add that i found the bottom end not too bad on my Mackie 824s.

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http://www.loverslanestudios.co.uk

Quote benniferj:

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Why have you not already called DV to see if they can ship out a replacement VXT on special delivery for tomorrow?

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Good point but I'd much rather get these out and new ones in asap. Also worried about the 30 day mark coming up in a couple of days. Plus its been a bit of a nightmare in the past to work with DV (Just my experience, sorry) so I'm not sure it would be as easy as - ''yeah sure, here's another one. Just send that and the other 2 back when you're done and we'll then ship out another pair altogether when you've decided what ones you want'' I could be wrong.

I've set a target to call them before 2pm though. It'd be great if I could come to some plan in my head first.

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http://www.loverslanestudios.co.uk

Quote Persuazion:

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I know its all numbers on paper but I'm a tad worried... The VXTs go all the way down to 37hz.

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That's 37Hz at -3dB, below which it drops like a brick because it's ported. The KH120 is quoted as 52Hz at -3dB and is also ported. The AE22 is quoted as having a -3dB LF point at 60Hz, but it's a sealed cabinet and has a very slow roll off.

The differences are roughly a musical fouth/fifth (E1 to A1 and Bb1)... but the roll offs are such that I doub't you'd notice much difference in LF extension in practice. Added to which, they're all capable of exciting your room modes which will cloud the issue nicely.

I think you'll notice the different quality of bass rather than the extension.

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Thanks Hugh that's great.

Well the AE22s come in under budget. But, thinking about it, +£100 isn't much if there's a notable quality (for want of a better word) difference between the AE22s and Neumanns.

It seems you, Hugh are more swayed by the KHs? Is there one of the two that would provide the 'lushest', fullest bass response in your opinion?

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http://www.loverslanestudios.co.uk

The solidity and germanic engineering of the KH would sway it for me. AE22s are great, and I'm a huge fan of sealed box cabinets because of the much better quality of bass, gentler roll off, and greater extension.

The KH120 is also a remarkable speaker in that it delivers far more than you would think possible in such a compact box, and is wonderfully refined and revealing.

But I would strongly advise a personal audition as monitors are quite a personal choice, and I don't know what your expectations and requirements are.

Compared to the KRKs, I think you'll probably find both initially lacking in bass power because they don't 'thump' like the KRK does. For me, that's a good thing (for a monitor) and I think once you're familiar with them you'll actually find it easier to make descisions about the bottom end beacuse they are both more accurate -- albeit in slightly different ways.

But if you need to 'feel' the bass then you might want to look at alternatives, or think about adding a sub. But you'd be hard pressed to get better for the budget you've set.

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Right.... Well I'm now armed with some good info. Add to that that I've noticed the single KH 120s are in stock while the AEs are not.

I may well have to go for the Neumanns and see how I get on.

Do you think I'd be cheeky, considering there have been a few bumpy moments on DVs part throughout this transaction, to say I may well have to change these yet again after a trial?

Thanks for all the info guys. I'll et on the blower asap.

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http://www.loverslanestudios.co.uk

Doh! Just realized the KH 120s are actually £200 more! Maths was never my strong point

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http://www.loverslanestudios.co.uk

At that price is it worth considering Quested S6R's too?

I'm all sorted folks!

Got a nice deal on a pair of AE22s and Pro Sub from a nice fellow SOS'er! Haven't had a chance to install them yet.

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http://www.loverslanestudios.co.uk

Quote Persuazion:

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Doh! Just realized the KH 120s are actually £200 more! Maths was never my strong point

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The DV price for a pair of KH120As is only £1,078.00 - so you are saving about £120 off the normal pro-user price.

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John - Sound-Link ProAudio
President - Federation Internationale des Chasseurs de Sons

I bought a pair of KRK's Rokits based off a SOS review which said they were none fatiguing and had a quite flat frequency response. After reading this I'm now regretting and should have probably bought Yamaha MSP5's instead for the same price. My only reference at the time were headphones and hifi speakers.

But anyway why are KRK's so popular at trade shows? Particularly at synth demonstrations.

Edited by Nites (13/03/12 03:45 PM)

Quote Nites:

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But anyway why are KRK's so popular at trade shows? Particularly at synth demonstrations.

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Possibly because KRK lend demo models to other exhibitors?

James.

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JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

Quote James Perrett:

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Quote Nites:

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But anyway why are KRK's so popular at trade shows? Particularly at synth demonstrations.

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Possibly because KRK lend demo models to other exhibitors?

James.

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And after my experiences, I'd say they do sound instantly impressive (the VXTs anyway) so that may be a factor in that decision. I'm loving how 'un impressive' these AE22s sound. Rather comforting

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http://www.loverslanestudios.co.uk

Hugh

I have a pair of AE22's. Great monitors but I have a problem with what sounds like digital 'buzzing'. I have an M-Audio 2496 card. My old P4 was fine but I now have a 2500K Sandy Bridge and have had all sorts of noise problems (squeeks, buzzes, you name it)which I believe are the well known PCI/Sandy Bridge issues. I have disabled the EIST settings etc on the BIOS but this has made no difference to the AE22's. The odd thing is that my old Roland MA-8 media style monitors are fine. Is this down to lack of shielding on the AE22's? Driving me mad. I have pretty much exhausted most of the standard diagnostics tests with no luck. Even tried running the AE22's through the on board sound card Realtek (ASUS P8P67LE)and the noise gets worse which suggests it is not a PCI issue? I would add that the buzzing goes when I use a cheap Skytronic isolator but it also wrecks the dynamics on my monitors. Baby and the bathwater syndrome. Is the only remaining option to try a decent ground loop braid breaker box? I am worried that this could also muzzle my AE22's which are very sensitive things. Any ideas?

Many thanks

Martin

Martin - if the AE22's have balanced inputs then you need to make up some phono to XLR (or jack) pseudo balanced cables. Connect the tip of the phono plug to pin 2 on the XLR and the outer of the phono plug to pin 3 of the XLR using the 2 cores of a 2 core + screen cable. Connect the screen of the cable to pin 1 of the XLR but leave it disconnected at the phono end.

James.

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JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

Quote Persuazion:

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I'm all sorted folks!

Got a nice deal on a pair of AE22s and Pro Sub from a nice fellow SOS'er! Haven't had a chance to install them yet.

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Make sure to calibrate sensibly Persuazion. Don't go for nut rattling sub levels. Go for accuracy m8. Personally, I'm not down with separate systems but if calibrated properly they can offer great referencing.

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Samplecraze
Stretch That Note

Quote James Perrett:

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Martin - if the AE22's have balanced inputs then you need to make up some phono to XLR (or jack) pseudo balanced cables. Connect the tip of the phono plug to pin 2 on the XLR and the outer of the phono plug to pin 3 of the XLR using the 2 cores of a 2 core + screen cable. Connect the screen of the cable to pin 1 of the XLR but leave it disconnected at the phono end.

James.

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James

Thanks for getting back with this suggestion. Is this a shielding remedy? Just for the record, I put together a ground loop box per kind instructions from ef37a (Dave) without any success. In fact the buzz was worse. I am just not sure this is a groundloop problem. The buzzing seems to be more digital than ground loop hum. Also, the noise is worse when I am in the DAW. The larger the template, the louder the noise. Click on W7 desktop and there is very little noise. If I click on the menus in Reaper, again, the noise diminishes. It does seem to be video related. Reducing the buffer on my 2496 reduces the noise but it is still bad. The monitors also appear to pick up signals when the mouse is moved. I will give this a try though.

The only successful cure to the buzz is when I use a Skytronic isolator. Trouble is, it also appears to filter the performance of the monitors. They sound enclosed and lose their dynamics.

Regards

Martin

Have a read of Martin Walker's thread about ground loops.

http://www.soundonsound.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=222392&page=0&v iew=collapsed&sb=5&o=365&fpart=1#222392

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http://soundcloud.com/richie-royale
http://www.mixcrate.com/richieroyale

The pseudo balanced cables break the ground loop while not affecting the audio quality in the way that your Skytronic isolator probably does. While ground loops used to cause hum back in the days when everything was analogue, nowadays they're more likely to cause hissing and clicking sounds in systems where there are digital devices.

I'm not sure why Dave's box didn't work - it might help if you post some detailed photos of the internals so that we can see if you've made any wiring mistakes.

James.

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JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

Quote MartinJG:

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I put together a ground loop box per kind instructions from ef37a (Dave) without any success. In fact the buzz was worse. I am just not sure this is a groundloop problem. The buzzing seems to be more digital than ground loop hum. Also, the noise is worse when I am in the DAW. The larger the template, the louder the noise. Click on W7 desktop and there is very little noise. If I click on the menus in Reaper, again, the noise diminishes. It does seem to be video related. Reducing the buffer on my 2496 reduces the noise but it is still bad. The monitors also appear to pick up signals when the mouse is moved.

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It does sound like it is probably a ground loop problem. The kind of noise you hear depends on the noise source, but the fact you hear it is usually because it gets in via a ground loop.

I suspect 'Dave's Box' is probably a dual transformer isolator, and that should work very well... but the devil is in the detail and grounding errors in the box construction could make matters worse rather than better. The fact that the skytronic works proves the point -- but it sounds poor because the transformers are pretty naff.

It is also possible that the situation is compounded by direct interference from the monitor screen power supplies or the computer's power supply. It really is important to keep mains wiring -- and especially any in-line power supply units -- well away from the audio wiring.

The pseudo-balanced cable approach is an alternative solution to breaking ground loops, but relies on having balanced inputs and may not be as effective as a good transformer isolator.

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Thanks to all for the feedback. I think I am starting to lose it. Just a little bit. Since I have pretty much exhausted my own tests (and patience), those nice chaps at Digital Village, Birmingham have agreed allow me onto their premises with my kit to see if we can get back to basics and thrash out the problem. Fingers crossed.

Martin

You'll be well pissed if it all goes well at DV, you then go home and that hum kicks in....

Go for the remote testing and if you still have problems get back to us. I might know someone who can come round toyour gaff and solve your problems.

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Samplecraze
Stretch That Note

Martin, PM me with your address and contact details. If you're near Brum then I expect we could arrange an impromptu Studio SOS to help resolve your problems.

In the mean time, has your sound card got a headphones output. If so, plug in some phones and have a listen. If it's buzz-free then your problem is external ground loops and we can definitely fix that. If it still buzzes on headphones then it's an internal computer problem... and much trickier to fix.

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Thanks for the kind offers of help. Sorry not to get back sooner but been a bit tied up the last few days and wanted to try a couple of other tests before replying.

I live in South Bucks but will travelling to Cheshire this weekend hence the reason for calling in at DV Brum on the way up. I will see how things go there and let you know the results.

Hugh, I did the headphones test on the onboard soundcard. Clear as anything. Can’t do a test on the M-Audio (RCA outputs) unless I wire up a L/F RCA to stereo jack. DV may have something which will save me the effort.

Also, having checked my old P4, I can confirm there is a slight buzz coming from my old P4 but it is nowhere near as bad as the cacophony I am experiencing on the i5.

Regards

Martin

Edited by MartinJG (05/04/12 10:42 PM)

OK folks.

The trip to DV Brum was useful. The problem is unbalanced cables. In theory, they should be OK. However, we tried a Saffire 6 with balanced cables and hey presto, no noise but inferior sound quality to the PCI 2496. We also tried an RME Babyface. Bad idea. Far superior sound quality but at a horrible price. So, the question is what is the best way forward. I really want to stick with the PCI option if possible. The Saffire 6 was a bit fuzzy sounding to me. I had thought maybe an M-Audio 192 with balanced outputs might be the answer but I read that someone with the same issue tried this but it failed to solve the problem. It seems the only choices are the ground loop box or the pseudo balanced cable after all. I am just a bit worried about the loss in sound quality. Sorry to drag this one out but does anyone have any further thoughts?

Many thanks

Martin JG

James

Depending on the final feedback on my previous post, I will attach a photo of my box if I can get a decent close up shot. Would prefer to resolve the fault on it if poss rather than forking out for an off the shelf box.

Thanks

Martin JG

Quote MartinJG:

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OK folks.

The trip to DV Brum was useful. The problem is unbalanced cables. In theory, they should be OK. However, we tried a Saffire 6 with balanced cables and hey presto, no noise but inferior sound quality to the PCI 2496. We also tried an RME Babyface. Bad idea. Far superior sound quality but at a horrible price. So, the question is what is the best way forward. I really want to stick with the PCI option if possible. The Saffire 6 was a bit fuzzy sounding to me. I had thought maybe an M-Audio 192 with balanced outputs might be the answer but I read that someone with the same issue tried this but it failed to solve the problem. It seems the only choices are the ground loop box or the pseudo balanced cable after all. I am just a bit worried about the loss in sound quality. Sorry to drag this one out but does anyone have any further thoughts?

Many thanks

Martin JG

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Sorry to but in late on this one, but you from the info given in this post you can't say that 'it's cables' when you exchange a PCI interface for a Firewire or USB interface and the problem goes unless I'm missing what you're doing? From the info given, all that can be said is that your computer seems to like USB or Firewire better than PCI but maybe that can be fixed..... Could still be a digital noise problem getting through. Not saying it is, just questioning this little bit of the fault finding or at least my understanding of it from what you've written. Apologies if I have the wrong end of the stick

I see that you've disabled 'EIST etc' in the BIOS. Have you done the C1e thing? If not, you may find it useful to read my tale of woe with noise on an ASUS board here

http://www.soundonsound.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=PCMus&Number=952 643&Searchpage=5&Main=952160&Words=&topic=&Search=true#Post952643

Again, if you've done all this then my apologies - I'll shuffle on by

Hi Gary

I can only use unbalanced cables on my PCI 2496 Audiophile (RCA to Jack). I am fairly sure the fellow at DV tried unbalanced and then balanced on a Saffire 6 but I will doublecheck with him tomorrow. The unbalanced were noisy, the balanced solved the problem. I read the link to your post, in fact I recall your comments re the BIOS settings on another thread on the PC Music forum regarding noise which focused on the PCI/Sandybridge problem. I tried disabling the EIST/C1/C2/C3 settings but it made no difference. I then went off on a tangent into the twilight zone regarding PCI issues etc and almost disappeared into outerspace but for a few helpful comments on this thread. Since I have a very basic setup on short runs I assumed the unbalanced Neutrik cables were OK and convinced myself it was not a ground loop problem but a Motherboard issue. So, after all that, it seems I have ended up back at square one and a little chastened to boot. Thanks for your input to date.

MartinJG

Thanks for the reply, Martin.

I really do wish you luck with sorting this - noise can spoil your day in a way that leads to madness . I'll bow out on this one now as the good chaps here have far more knowledge than me on ground loops and balanced vs unbalanced..... My experience of noise is (fortunately for me) in a single direction and a weird long shot one..... On top of that you've already been down that particular path of desperation . Still be interesting to exclude the cable query with the Saffire with the chap in the shop just in case it is indeed still something weird with PCI on your system.

Well folks, after a seemingly exhaustive set of tests it seems that the PCI bridging issue must be the problem after all. Tried the ART Cleanbox 2. No difference. So, on that basis, 'Dave's Box' is probably OK after all give or take the odd detail here and there probably down to my hamfisted efforts. What is rather interesting is that someone over on Soundsonline had exactly the same issue (same spec computer except 2600K). He partially solved the problem by running an XLR from his Behringer 'Eurorack' mixer to his KRK monitors, ie balanced. I tried the same route but my Yamaha mixer does not have XLR out so I used an adaptor 1/4 to XLR from the control room (balanced) via an XLR cable to the monitors. The dreadful noise has abated with the exception of a slight 'static' crackle in the background. He confirms he has the same 'static crackle'. So, there we have it. It's been educational...

Thanks to all for your enduring interest and support.

MartinJG

I realise that the thread has moved on a bit from this, but just to say that whilst other speakers with larger drivers certainly do produce more and lower bass, the low end on my KH120As has both very good extension, and far more importantly, control.

I also read the spec sheet, and as detailed as it is, it really doesn't do these speakers justice.

Since I got these bad boys I have had low-end difficulty with one track, and that turned-out to have enormous bucketfulls of sub 20Hz energy to play with.

A.

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Andi, www.thedustbowl.net Mixing, Mastering, Audio Editing at The Dustbowl Audio