Just watched a Bill Withers documentary folloed by a 70s 5 piece live studio set. He admitted he was no virtuoso and knew no theory.
I'd never noticed before, but watching the live set his songs nearly all begin with a 4,2 or even 1 bar vamp and just stay there for the whole track; with Bill simply singing different parts to provide the song structure.
It got me thinking how simple even universal classics can be; and how the melody is 99.9 % of the song.

Melody is not 99% of the song, communication is..and that is the point that maybe eludes you! Dave

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My head hurts!

A great man and a really good programme. Not sure he'd be happy to think that his lyrics contributed only 0.1% to the success of the songs though.

I started to watch the program but had to pause, so I can't comment on the program yet. However I will point out that some of his later songs had collaborators and were to my ears more interesting. Tracks such as "Just the Two of Us" and "Lovely Day" were more complex than "Ain't No Sunshine". As much as I like Bill Withers performance of "Ain't No Sunshine" it is less interesting to play with less inspiring singers, without his quality the song is exposed for the simple (all be it inspired) ditty it is. On the other hand "Lovely Day" has a bit more craft and the song itself works well with most competent singers.

Please don't get me wrong here. I love all his stuff. I'm just saying his performances are so strong they can work on any type of arrangement, but that doesn't mean it works for everybody. At least if there's an arrangement the band can get their teeth into they can help out the weaker singers.

As for melody being 99% of the song, well for me Bill's stuff isn't that melodic, I mean of course there is a melody but he is more about phrasing, rhythm and a strong voice.

Yes fletcher I’d agree with you. His vocal quality and delivery make anything sound great, even if the song is not necessarily top draw.
I've had the problem when writing with vocalists who I consider to be great singers; it's much more difficult to tell if you have actually written anything any of any worth, because it's hard to listen past the vibe and sheen of a great delivery.
I suppose my lack of focus on the lyric is down to my own predilections.

Oh Turbodave,
I didn’t realize anything was eluding me. But thanks for putting me straight on that one mate. It’s always good to know there’s some experienced pros out there that can give some of us kids a bit of sound advice.

Quote NuBoy:

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Yes fletcher I’d agree with you. His vocal quality and delivery make anything sound great, even if the song is not necessarily top draw.
I've had the problem when writing with vocalists who I consider to be great singers; it's much more difficult to tell if you have actually written anything any of any worth, because it's hard to listen past the vibe and sheen of a great delivery.
I suppose my lack of focus on the lyric is down to my own predilections.

Oh Turbodave,
I didn’t realize anything was eluding me. But thanks for putting me straight on that one mate. It’s always good to know there’s some experienced pros out there that can give some of us kids a bit of sound advice.

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Calm down boy , its just a commercial! Sorry , but if you read your post again you will see that you claim melody is 99% of a song. Well by my definition the whole point of songs has eluded you. Communication is the key...now how you support that communication with arrangement and melody is secondary, but also important. Bill Withers has good melodies, but great communication skills (except for Lovely day which is crap IMO) . Dave

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My head hurts!

just for the record, what's crap about Lovely Day?

The communication or the melody? - in your opinion of course.

Quote fletcher:

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just for the record, what's crap about Lovely Day?

The communication or the melody? - in your opinion of course.

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In my opinion (of course) the repeating theme of "Lovely Day" outstays its welcome despite me generally liking repetition...and also I am not a fan of the word "lovely"...wet!..but I love THIS class! Dave

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My head hurts!

nice song thanks for the link.

Am I to assume you've never had a lovely day though, you know, woken up with a beautiful chick next to you and nothing else matters, I mean that's lovely right? I know 20 years later when she's moaning about you needing a real job and the kids need a new whatever the feeling might get lost a bit.......

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nice song thanks for the link.

Am I to assume you've never had a lovely day though, you know, woken up with a beautiful chick next to you and nothing else matters, I mean that's lovely right? I know 20 years later when she's moaning about you needing a real job and the kids need a new whatever the feeling might get lost a bit.......

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Thanks! I still have a beautiful chick next to me every night (farts and snores included), but no I don't wake up thinking lovelydaylovelydaylovelydaylovelydaylovelydaylovelydaylovelydaylovelydaylovelyday........l ike Marvin the paranoid Android! Dave

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My head hurts!

how about if we took that bit out? I can see your point, trying to remember if any of the singers I've done it with have ever sung that bit, maybe not.

You've put me off it now as well!

It was a very interesting but poignant documentary. He seems to have lost his mojo a few years ago. He as much as said that he'd lost the urge to 'show off'

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When I'm sad I sing, and then the whole world is sad with me.
Band / Songs

Quote Skyline:

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It was a very interesting but poignant documentary. He seems to have lost his mojo a few years ago. He as much as said that he'd lost the urge to 'show off'

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there's another documentary out there (anyone with a link?) about the music biz which features wither's backstory - he apparently really got screwed by just about everyone he was involved with - label, manager, women, etc. that thing can take your zeal down a few notches =:-O (check out the riff in "who is he (and what is he to you?)" for killer simplicity as well as being based on a real episode in his life)...

the cool thing about music is there are "many mansions in the house" to paraphrase the Bible. simple songs can be great. complex songs ("tales from topographic oceans" is hard to beat for complexity in rock but i love it) can be great. it's all good....

d

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"Patsy had the drug tolerance of Keith Richards and the moral rectitude of Brian Jones." - Dr. Walter Bishop, "Fringe"

Dave, the key communication device in this song is the vocal counterpoint in the chorus. Without the repetitive line (and the lead sustain) there would be no counterpoint, and …. no chorus.
Now that would seem to be the point that has eluded you with this song.

Quote I'd Rather Play:

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Dave, the key communication device in this song is the vocal counterpoint in the chorus. Without the repetitive line (and the lead sustain) there would be no counterpoint, and …. no chorus.
Now that would seem to be the point that has eluded you with this song.

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No, nuttin has eluded me, that is your opinion!...the difference between that and my assertion, is that a song IS all about communication....and anyway, however you want to dress it up, the counterpoint, as you so eloquently put it, is a bad one! there are good and bad uses of this device! Dave

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My head hurts!

Quote I'd Rather Play:

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Dave, the key communication device in this song is the vocal counterpoint in the chorus. Without the repetitive line (and the lead sustain) there would be no counterpoint, and …. no chorus.
Now that would seem to be the point that has eluded you with this song.

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I also get the point of what he's done. I just don't like it and find it a pretty dull old song. Sorry

It's not that i dislike the ethos of 'today is great' as I really like Elbow's 'on a day like this' which, for my money, is a much sweeter and more eloquent way of saying the same kind of thing - it's a new day that I'm seeing with very bright eyes due to the circumstances I find myself in. I hear the joy in that song and I believe it whereas I don't believe Bill's telling of a broadly similar tale.

It is mainly that I don't like the counterpoint used. It gets on my bits and bobs a lot quicker than it should.

Ultimately, you can analyse a song as much as you like - if someone just doesn't like it after having given it a fair crack of the whip then you have to file that in the bin of 'one of those things' - it's entirely possible to fully understand something and still not like it

Quote Gary_W:

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it's entirely possible to fully understand something and still not like it

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Indeed.

The strangest thing though is disliking something for a portion of your life, then later learning to enjoy it! So many examples, too numerous to mention. Ain't life grand.

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Quote GlynB:

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Quote Gary_W:

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it's entirely possible to fully understand something and still not like it

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Indeed.

The strangest thing though is disliking something for a portion of your life, then later learning to enjoy it! So many examples, too numerous to mention. Ain't life grand.

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I spent years having the kneejerk response of loathing country music and avoiding anything that went in that direction. I think it came from an afterschool job I had when I was 14 / 15 when the owner of the shop would force 'Nigel Rene's Country Express' on Ipswich's 'Radio Orwell' down my throat. It was a two hour train wreck of a show that interspaced cheesy adverts, awful DJ'ing and the worst examples of what passes as country music.

Took me years to get over it. These days, I'm fond of a bit of Chet Atkins / Johnny Cash / Ryan Adams / lots of Americana.

Who knows, I might learn to love dubstep one day

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Just watched a Bill Withers documentary folloed by a 70s 5 piece live studio set.

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Can anybody please tell me where I can catch this/any documentary re Bill Withers? Was it on Sky tv?

http://stillbillthemovie.com/

Thank you fletcher...

your welcome