Hi guys,

I have always struggled with mixing . I've read Mike Senior's book several times now and I think I have made some improvements. This is probably the best I can do. I think I'm too close to the project to have any more insights. I'd really appreciate any help or suggestions anyone cares to offer.

The track is on Soundcloud:
http://soundcloud.com/the-primary-korea/the-primary-head-in-the-door
Or you can download a 320 kb/s MP3: (I promise no viruses or anything unpleasant).
http://www.mediafire.com/?wo0sxl5a8uzfmst


Details and photos of the band and recording sessions are on our facebook here:
https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Primary/126210854128690

I'd really appreciate some mix critique on this track 'Head In The Door.' Have I got the frequency balance right? I'm aiming for U2 Unforgettable Fire brought up to date style production. Something atmospheric and modern but rock nonetheless.

Please feel free to tear it apart, there's nothing to be learned from sugar coating.

I'd also really like to know what you think of the song, style and the performance. Does it have potential?

I know it takes time and trouble to download and listen to a mix so sincere thanks in advance!

Cheers,

Tony.

Intro ac guitar is weak/poorly played/weak sound. I'd re-record it and track it. Use a different mix setting for the intro to the rest of the song....

Vocals need tuning.

16th Hats sound too machine like.

Song needs developing - too many big holes with nothing to catch the ear.

Drums are too dry and need that 'Stadium' reverb to give the mix more depth.

Electric guitars are the best thing about it IMHO

JP

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Mac Pro, Logic Pro, lots of software and 17 hard drives!

Coming on well...

Quote Jonnypopisical:

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Vocals need tuning.

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...yep...

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Song needs developing - too many big holes with nothing to catch the ear.

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It did seem a bit empty at times - would be nice to build or vary it, eg, at 1.42, second verse...keys...? Or during the lull at 2.48 maybe there's an opportunity to develop the chord progression a bit. As the whole thing is on two chords, it would benefit from more interest either in the progression or the arrangement.

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I think the mix is quite good, well to my cloth ears it is, and think the song has potential, but here's the rub - don't you get bored rigid just going from A to D all the way through?

I also think the mix is sounding pretty good.

Here are my unnecessarily cruel notes on it ():

Nice guitar sound - I like this!
Lovely strings!
So much promise!
Ah...
The vocals don't cut it. Sorry. They are a bit out of tune in places (which I wouldn't necessarily hold against them), but they lack 'it'. It sounds like the vocal of someone reading the lyrics.
Drums are too dry and the kick drum doesn't get under my feet. The snare is all mid crunch, making it sound a bit cheap.
The song is uncomfortably derivative and doesn't move me.
The throw effects sound 'glued on' and don't sufficiently earn their reason to be there.
Everything in the mix sounds like it's fighting for stage front.

Oh, it's so easy to be negative. I think you've actually done a great job as an engineer, but a producer might be sending a couple of performers back into the studio for re-tracking. And that's when it gets more difficult...

HTH in some way!

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Thanks a lot for your response so far guys. It's very useful - if a bit dispiriting.

I can understand the comments about the progression, that was my first thought when the song was presented to me by the singer/songwriter (I'm the electric guitar player). We have high hopes for this song as it is the one that gets the strongest reaction at gigs, it definitely seems to work live.

I see a trend in all of your points... If possible can I ask for some more advice?

Quote The Elf:

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The vocals don't cut it. Sorry. They are a bit out of tune in places (which I wouldn't necessarily hold against them), but they lack 'it'. It sounds like the vocal of someone reading the lyrics.

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I can hear this now. I think the singer was stung by less charitable band members criticising his 'pitchiness' on previous takes. I've been working on this project for 4 months and I'm a hack hobbyist recorder - I didn't hear this. Thanks!

Quote The Elf:

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and the kick drum doesn't get under my feet.

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Would you say this is caused by a lack of low end on the kick? Or too much high end? Or is it something else altogether.

Quote The Elf:

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Drums are too dry---- Everything in the mix sounds like it's fighting for stage front.

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This is something I really struggle with in my hack mixing! If I add more room or verb to the kit do you think it will resolve the everything fighting stage front problem? But then, will I lose the clarity and drive that upfront drums provide? Or should I be pushing back other elements? My head hurts. Help!

Quote The Elf:

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The throw effects sound 'glued on' and don't sufficiently earn their reason to be there.

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Are these my vocal delay effects? Do you think they are a bad idea or poorly executed? I was trying to create a sense of excitement with ambiance like on Unforgettable Fire. It's a high target, I'm not at all surprised I failed.

Quote The Elf:

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The song is uncomfortably derivative and doesn't move me. Oh, it's so easy to be negative. I think you've actually done a great job as an engineer, but a producer might be sending a couple of performers back into the studio for re-tracking. And that's when it gets more difficult...

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Thanks for your honesty and time! I will be re-tracking the vocals, you are totally on the money when you say they lack 'it'. And they are also a bit out of tune. If I did have this 'producer' role, what else would you recommend I re-track?

Quote The Elf:

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HTH in some way!

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Elf, I always enjoy reading your posts on the forum, thanks very much for replying to my request for help! Thanks also to Jonnypopisical, BJG145, and OneWorld.

If anyone else has any other comments please share them!

It's bloody hard work making records...

Tony.

Quote BigElectricCat:

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Thanks a lot for your response so far guys. It's very useful - if a bit dispiriting.

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It takes some guts - good on ya!

Quote BigElectricCat:

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Quote The Elf:

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and the kick drum doesn't get under my feet.

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Would you say this is caused by a lack of low end on the kick? Or too much high end? Or is it something else altogether.

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Maybe lose some more of the woody low-mids (200-400Hz?), also cut some of the 'knock' (between 750Hz-1.5kHz?) and boost some of the low (50-80Hz). Make sure to HPF any flabbiness. Listening again I still feel the snare is a bit of a problem in the mix, having too much metallic crunch to blend nicely - only you know if that's in the tracking or the mixing.

Quote BigElectricCat:

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Quote The Elf:

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Drums are too dry---- Everything in the mix sounds like it's fighting for stage front.

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This is something I really struggle with in my hack mixing! If I add more room or verb to the kit do you think it will resolve the everything fighting stage front problem? But then, will I lose the clarity and drive that upfront drums provide? Or should I be pushing back other elements? My head hurts. Help!

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This is where you have to just try things and see where it takes you. I'd try adding something like a plate reverb for the drums. I'd add this in degrees to the snare, toms - maybe a little to the kit as a whole (or overheads) - and EQ the return to clear up the mud. But (and this is a big 'but'), this may not work! I'd then look at the other parts - maybe put the guitars into a room (or chamber) space to hold them behind the vocal. This is the art of it, so there are no definitive answers, I'm afraid.

For the type of sound you're describing I'd look for some more 'epic'-sounding spaces to populate the mix. The first reverb lift on 'daaaay' sounds like the kind of reverb I'd have on for the dryer parts and actually push it even harder for the throws.

Quote BigElectricCat:

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Quote The Elf:

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The throw effects sound 'glued on' and don't sufficiently earn their reason to be there.

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Are these my vocal delay effects? Do you think they are a bad idea or poorly executed? I was trying to create a sense of excitement

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I think that's a good idea. What you have seems to appear from nowhere and our ears haven't been 'prepared' for it. Sometimes that's a good thing, but in this mix that sounds otherwise fairly 'raw' it doesn't sit well. A single long delay is a nice effect, but I'd often coat this with a reverb that's already part of the mix to help it blend. You also maybe have the delay effect set a bit wide across the stereo field. I'd also maybe fade the delay in and also let it decay over more repeats. And I'd maybe bandwidth reduce the delay to give it distance.

Please don't take anything above as definitive. My opinion is no better than anyone else's, and if I were working on the mix I'd change my mind a hundred times before the mix was presented as anything approaching a completed piece of work.

As to re-tracking... 80% is vocals. For me a couple of the lead guitar parts could have a bit more fluidity, but that's just a matter of taste, since they're played nicely.

Arrangement-wise I'd shorten the intro.

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Elf, I always enjoy reading your posts on the forum, thanks very much for replying to my request for help!

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Shucks! You're welcome.

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Hi Tony,

Glad the book has been helpful -- it certainly sounds like you're doing a lot of things right already from a technical perspective (although I'm only listening on my office PC's crummy speakers). Sorting out the anaemic acoustic guitar sound would make a huge difference, I agree, as would spending more time on the vocal editing/correction. However, the main things that are causing problems aren't really the technical issues, as other posters have already pointed out. To some extent, it feels like you're trying to mix the unmixable at the moment.

From a mixing perspective, because of the very nature of the song you've got and the kind of references you're making, you've already set yourself one of the most difficult tasks a mixing engineer can face: namely creating a long, slow build-up without any help from harmonic progressions. On its own this would already be difficult to handle well even with the wind behind you, but you're hampered further by 'looseness' to the structure, for want of a better word -- too much riffing and repetition, and not enough variation. Where the harmonies are repeating, you really need to go further to create longer phrase arches with your melodies/riffs, I think, and I would certainly look at shaving at least 40 seconds off the running time with section edits in your position.

I reckon once you tackle those underlying structural issues, the mix will begin to come into focus a lot more.

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Mixing Secrets for the Small Studio
A complete mixing method based around the techniques of the world's most famous producers.

I was reading the first comments and I thought - Oh my god, this should be a bad mix and poorly arranged song. But when I listened to the song, I found it was a very good and honest effort. But I can agree somehow with the critics/comments and it just kicked my ass to always try to make better than what you think it's OKish. What I mean it's this thread show me a good example of what kind of level of quality you should be aiming at when you want to pretend to professional produced music. Still have some homework to do...

Just a thought to help getting throught my day.

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http://soundcloud.com/orgasmo-sonore Revisiting Obscure Film Music

Quote Mike Senior:

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Sorting out the anaemic acoustic guitar sound would make a huge difference, I agree, as would spending more time on the vocal editing/correction.

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Thanks for listening and commenting Mike - your book has helped me a lot in terms of mixing. But I still have a long way to go.

After recording about 20 takes of the vocal for this song over 4 sessions we were unable to see the wood for the trees. We went too far down the 'in tune' route (and failed) and too far from the 'with passion' route. The vocal obviously needs both.

We are going to completely retrack the vocal. I think I'll autotune the current vocal and play that in his headphones to keep him in tune leaving him free to focus on passion and feeling - the very things that have brought us a decent local fanbase who are willing to travel to our gigs here in South Korea.

Quote Mike Senior:

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you're hampered further by 'looseness' to the structure, for want of a better word -- too much riffing and repetition, and not enough variation. Where the harmonies are repeating, you really need to go further to create longer phrase arches with your melodies/riffs, I think, and I would certainly look at shaving at least 40 seconds off the running time with section edits in your position.

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I can definitely see removing the first acoustic guitar repetition before the cello in the intro. Could you give me some idea of what other cuts you would consider Mike (or anyone else)?

I have to admit to being a bit surprised by the negative reaction of many to the song. It is our most popular tune at gigs and has people pogoing, singing along with the signature guitar riff, and headbanging by the end.

However, this was the first tune that we put together as a band. Our song writing is developing as we gain experience. Comments on this thread will be invaluable for the future.

Hopefully with a big, passionate, in tune vocal and a better mix the song will translate to a wider non-live audience.

Quote Frank Rideau:

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I was reading the first comments and I thought - Oh my god, this should be a bad mix and poorly arranged song. But when I listened to the song, I found it was a very good and honest effort.

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Thanks for that Frank, I appreciate you taking the time to listen and I'm glad you found it honest and good - that's what we aim for in the Celtic-Folk Rock game out here in South Korea

Quote Frank Rideau:

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just kicked my ass to always try to make better than what you think it's OKish. What I mean it's this thread show me a good example of what kind of level of quality you should be aiming at when you want to pretend to professional produced music. Still have some homework to do...

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Amen brother. It's damn hard work this music 'hobby'.

Many thanks to everyone who has responded so far. Please feel free to leave further comments,

Tony.

The mistake you've made is to stretch out one piece of music for far too long. Few bands can pull that off. What you have is a decent -- some might say half-decent -- verse section for a song. What you need to do now is add some other sections -- a chorus, maybe a pre-chorus, and a middle eight. (Even one more section would help -- go to a minor chord to start with). Although I worry that if this is one of your best songs, have you guys got the songwriting skills to do that? Well, only one way to find out. Have a go and try to improve on what you have.

>I have to admit to being a bit surprised by the negative reaction of many to the song. It is our most popular tune at gigs and has people pogoing, singing along with the signature guitar riff, and headbanging by the end.

This doesn't surprise me at all. It's something that often happens -- songs that work well live don't always work so well on record. This is not necessarily due to a bad recording -- it can happen with good recordings too. Thing is, when you listen to a recording you're much more focused on the song itself, whereas in the live context the band's energy and charisma help sell the song. And this song is too basic and repetitive to cut it on record. (Mind you, I don't think it would cut it live either in the UK).

Improving the recording will help, but you'd still be polishing something that's always going to be a boring song on record. Like I said, what you have is a verse, not a whole song.

>I think I'll autotune the current vocal and play that in his headphones to keep him in tune leaving him free to focus on passion and feeling

I wouldn't do that. It's more likely to make him think he's in tune when he isn't, and vocalists often don't like it anyway. It can also produce a less strong vocal.

I would get him to perform it with feeling, and then fix the tuning afterwards. (After, that is, you've re-written the song!)

Providing a heavily tuned guide vocal can actually work well, so is worth a try.

I'm working with a vocalist at the moment (well, tomorrow, to be precise!) who finds it a bit of a struggle to pitch in isolation, but once he has a mercilessly tuned guide vocal to follow he turns in a much better result with all of the passion and nuances missing from the original.

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Okay, definitely worth a try then.