Hi,
I hope someone can help me here. I am rehearsing to play live - mainly keyboards but on a couple of songs I play acoustic guitar. I have a Tanglewood acoustic with a piezo electric pickup which produces a horrible, splatty sound which I believe is unavoidable.

What is the easiest way to improve the sound I am getting? My. Budget is tight....as usual, but is there any easy way to get a more natural acoustic sound?

Would I get feedback if I attempted to mic it with a cheap samson vocal mic?

I would be really grateful for guidance with this problem.

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www.slowworm.net

Edited by Rich C (24/03/12 03:50 PM)

Hi there, if you do a quick forum search, you'll stumble upon at least a dozen of exhausting debates and advice about your plight.

I initiated a similar quest a few months back and we all agreed that piezos, or most of them, are 'not that good', and in my opinion, their worst sin is that they have 0 dynamics: pluck the string gently, and you might get a decent sound through a good (AER for instance) acoustic amp and a pedal like the Fishman Auras, BUT, when and if you strum with some vigour, squashed plastic horror ensues.

Advice to repel this ignominious racket included a couple of links for superior contact 'bugs' (US origin), small, but usually expensive, on-body ('clip-on') mics, or top of the range mic/contact combos from the likes of Fishman and others.

Placing a mic in front of your acoustic guitar live will produce a much better sound (look at ancient vintage Woodstock CSNY for instance), but howling feedback is almost guaranteed if the set up is not 'professional', or in ear monitoring...

Good luck, I mean it, especially on a budget!

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www.bugiolacchi.com
Songwriter/guitarist

Oh.

I have just noticed a mandolin thread a little way down. Does the information there apply to my question? Specifically - putting an SM57 in front of the guitar or is that as you say just a quick route to SQUEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE at loud volumes?

I will do a search now but from the sound of things it might lead to nothing for me because my budget is very small. I don't think I can justify a lot of money on something that will be used for a couple of songs for a badly played acoustic. Oh dear. Thank you for the advice - I'll do a search now - I naively thought this might not be a common question.

Thanks

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www.slowworm.net

Hi, R.

Does your guitar have a preamp fitted?

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Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

Ummmmm.

I'm not really a guitarist. It has a box on the wall of the guitar that says 'Fishman Classic 4' and takes a nine volt battery. Is that a preamp?

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www.slowworm.net

My son has a Turner acoustic fitted with a Fishman Ellipse VT setup which he says is pretty good but then the guitar was £500 second hand!

Is that a passive peizo pickup or does it have its own pre amp? If the former then the following amplifier needs to have a very high input impedance, 5, better 10 meg Ohms and so a dedicated peizo pre amp is required since few if any guitar or instrument amps have that sort of inputZ.

If it is active and you are going into a keyboard/inst' amp you probably need some radically different EQ settings from the keys ones but that is a bit of a PITA to sort mid gig! Try an EQ pedal such as the Boss GE-7.Another, possibly more ergernomic solution is a small mixer such as the Behringer X 802. Keys in one channel, AC/GIT in tother and you can EQ each to your hearts!

Also investigate soundhole pickups. No doubt Andy (Zen)will have much more and better advice.

Dave (YES!Feedback is the constant curse of the ampe'd up acoustic ANYTHING!)

Quote Rich C:

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Ummmmm.

I'm not really a guitarist. It has a box on the wall of the guitar that says 'Fishman Classic 4' and takes a nine volt battery. Is that a preamp?

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That would be be one. Does it have a good battery in it and have you experimented? with it?

Quote ef37a:

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Dave (YES!Feedback is the constant curse of the ampe'd up acoustic ANYTHING!)

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Not true. "Mic'd up acoustic anything" maybe.

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Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

Quote Rich C:

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Ummmmm.

I'm not really a guitarist. It has a box on the wall of the guitar that says 'Fishman Classic 4' and takes a nine volt battery. Is that a preamp?

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Aha! Good news! Got a good battery in there of course? Google shows that Fishman to have some EQ but maybe not enough/at the right frequencies to sort your sound perhaps?
I still favour the wee mixer approach. It would be nice to have sweebable mids as per my ZED 10 but I see "budget" in the first post, the mixer is anyway a serious overkill for this problem and fair stage footprint...But, if the band was LOOKING for a good mixer for other purposes they could do a lot worse......

So, cheapish mixer with sweepable EQs, any takers?

Dave.

"Not true. "Mic'd up acoustic anything" maybe."

You not heard of a certain Mr Hendrix then?
With enough gain and the right phase ANYTING will feedback, even a capacitor!

Dave.

Edited by ef37a (24/03/12 05:11 PM)

Quote ef37a:

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"Not true. "Mic'd up acoustic anything" maybe."

You not heard of a certain Mr Hendrix then?
With enough gain and the right phase ANYTING will feedback, even a capacitor!

Dave.

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I can only go from my own experience, 3 instruments, many systems, no problems.

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Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

Quote shufflebeat:

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Quote ef37a:

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"Not true. "Mic'd up acoustic anything" maybe."

You not heard of a certain Mr Hendrix then?
With enough gain and the right phase ANYTING will feedback, even a capacitor!

Dave.

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I can only go from my own experience, 3 instruments, many systems, no problems.

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Not enough gain there then!
Dave.

This box:

www.behringer.com/EN/Products/ADI21.aspx

...is the cheapest way I know to get some control over your sound. The 'tube/blend' effect is a waste of time but there is a usable swept mid control and a balanced output so you should hear some serious improvements after a little experimentation. I've got one living in my 'Justin' case for when fiddlers turn up with their scratchy little piezos and scratchy little attitudes of "get me a good sound with this crappy setup" (but I'm not bitter). If it can deal with those situations it'll go some way to sorting out your situation.

Usually I would suggest something a bit more upmarket but for the sake of a few songs it doesn't seem appropriate. If you do win the lottery post back and we'll get you a fantastic sound.

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Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

When it comes to acoustic pickups many swear K+K Pure Western Mini, which I think costs about £100, so it's not the most expensive pickup by any stretch...

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/K-K-Pure-Mini-acoustic-guitar-pickup-/2007265715 84?pt=UK_Guitar_Accessories&hash=item2ebc3c6a40#ht_500wt_1204

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http://soundcloud.com/earwighoney

Quote ef37a:

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"Not true. "Mic'd up acoustic anything" maybe."

You not heard of a certain Mr Hendrix then?
With enough gain and the right phase ANYTING will feedback, even a capacitor!

Dave.

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Hendrix would've sounded a lot different if I'd been doing the sound. Horrible squeaky racket.

Oh, yes and he'd have had a proper haircut as well.

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Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

The Behringer ADI21 is really interesting....and cheap!!! Is there anything like this which is just a *little* bit more upmarket?

The replies so far are really helpful. Would sticking a dynamic mic on the guitar and mixing in this signal quite low along with the output from the guitar help at all?

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www.slowworm.net

Re mic: If you're on a quiet stage in front of a room of adoring folkies you might get some benefit, otherwise it might cause more problems than it solves.

There are a lot of pedal solutions that would be useful but just as many opinions as to which is best. For me the Fishman Aura Blender is best and can be picked up for a decent price second hand now.

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Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

Pop this in it web page and then play it through this web page

I use one of these web page and its great.

Fishman web page have a great reputation

The moral of the story goes to show if you want a good sound get a good pick up and fire it into a good amp.

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Strictly an amateur with some nice toys,

Quote DAGGILARR:

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The moral of the story goes to show if you want a good sound get a good pick up and fire it into a good amp.

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Don't forget to put it in a decent guitar and... oh yes, be able to play. €8^D

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Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

Quote shufflebeat:

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Quote DAGGILARR:

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The moral of the story goes to show if you want a good sound get a good pick up and fire it into a good amp.

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Don't forget to put it in a decent guitar and... oh yes, be able to play. €8^D

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And wot ee sed



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Strictly an amateur with some nice toys,

I have truly had it on all counts then... :-(

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www.slowworm.net

Quote Rich C:

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I have truly had it on all counts then... :-(

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(8^D

Nah, you'll be fine. You care and that's a good place to start.

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Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

I got hold of a Behringer ADi21 for thirty pounds including P&P. I have cloth ears so I can't be trusted as a reliable source of information, but to me it did improve the sound of the guitar immensely. I wouldn't say it sounded exactly like a miked up acoustic but it certainly sounds a lot more pleasant than the squashed, lifeless splat splat splat I was getting before. Calling the pedal 'budget' is a kind euphemism for extremely cheap and nasty - it is really plasticky but it certainly did the job I wanted it to do.

I would love enough money to get a proper system like the pickups and amps and Fishman pedals described in this thread, but for a quick and dirty solution to the problem the Behringer can't be beaten. The P.A. We rehearse with is OK but not fantastic and when the rest of the band come in after the exposed acoustic bits then the sound is pretty decent in my opinion.

So thank you for that recommendation. I will refer to this thread again when I get hold of some more cash because having heard what a twenty pound box of tricks can do I would love to be able to afford something better...

Thank you for the practical and fast advice - it was really helpful.



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www.slowworm.net

Morning Rich,
I am not in the least suprised that the Behringer box gives good results. The company have a talent for producing some pretty good electronics (and a guitar pre is hardly rocket science anyway!) at remarkably low prices. For sure the cases and knobs might be a bit tacky but 1mm steel boxes, Neutrik connectors and Alps pots contribute jack to sound quality and cost several times that of the actual electronics. Behringer have therefore brought kit of very acceptable specification to the masses.
Yes, some of their business methods are certainly questionable but, like tax avoidance, the ripping off of designs has always been with us and in any case such ripping seems to be condemmed at the lower end of the food chain and tolerated, even accepted at the top. Many a vintage compressor/EQ has been "emulated" but given a twee name to avoid possible litigation!

Dave.

Quote Rich C:

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I got hold of a Behringer ADi21 for thirty pounds including P&P. I have cloth ears so I can't be trusted as a reliable source of information, but to me it did improve the sound of the guitar immensely. I wouldn't say it sounded exactly like a miked up acoustic but it certainly sounds a lot more pleasant than the squashed, lifeless splat splat splat I was getting before. Calling the pedal 'budget' is a kind euphemism for extremely cheap and nasty - it is really plasticky but it certainly did the job I wanted it to do.

I would love enough money to get a proper system like the pickups and amps and Fishman pedals described in this thread, but for a quick and dirty solution to the problem the Behringer can't be beaten. The P.A. We rehearse with is OK but not fantastic and when the rest of the band come in after the exposed acoustic bits then the sound is pretty decent in my opinion.

So thank you for that recommendation. I will refer to this thread again when I get hold of some more cash because having heard what a twenty pound box of tricks can do I would love to be able to afford something better...

Thank you for the practical and fast advice - it was really helpful.

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All in a day's work, citizen.

Next: global warming.

Cheers for the update, Rich. Good luck.

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Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

Look up Tony Emmanuel's live rig. He plays Acoustic through a big PA and plays as loud as a rocknroller.

What strings do you have on the guitar

You might find a heavy gauge gives you a better tone, especially if you are using really light ones.

As ZenG often says a guitar is a complex set of different materials all working as one with one part often affecting another in terms of interaction.

Also next time you change strings lift your saddle and check the ribbon pickup has a flat seating on both the bridge and saddle

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Madman_Greg

I recently bought one of these http://www.lrbaggs.com/m1a/

I haven't used it in anger yet, but my buying decision came from a friend's recomendation - he's a fussy bugger with live acoustic sound. He's been through oodles of different pickups and now recons he's found 'the one'. Whether I feel the same or not time will tell

His reasons for the recomendation are that it has fantastic feedback resistance whilst actually giving you a lot more of the character of the guitar than your typical magnetic does.

I managed to get one from the US via eBay so, including customs charges, it was about £125 whereas they were around £180 - £200 over here depending where you looked.