Hi all.

I eventually convinced myself that I need a good pair of headphones and sprang for a pair of Sennheiser HD650s. They arrived last week and they really are lovely. However, I'm having a few doubts about their suitability for the job in hand - checking and fine tuning mix/master jobs of (mainly) pop, rock and metal and some acoustic music, because they sound very smooth and quite relaxed (bearing in mind that they have only a few hours use). When I was choosing I tried both the HD650s and the much loved Beyer DT880 Pros, though not in the same shop. So far as I could tell I preferred the HDs and bought them. I have also heard HD600s in the past and rather liked them too. This isn't about "recommend me a headphone" but rather about sifting through some of the hyperbolae concerning the various options. Part of the trouble is that headphones stray well into audiophile territory and there appear to a fair number of enthusiasts out there and that makes me cautious.

So. The HD650s sound great. I put up some mixes that I've done and I can hear details in the mid and higher register that need attention; oddly without them sounding unpleasant. Compression artefacts are loud and clear, but again, they don’t hurt too much. The bass sounds very nice, but I "fixed" the bass on a problematic track that I've been working on - got it just right in the cans and then it's a bit light on my monitors and hi-fi. Online sources claim (in the majority) that the mids and upper bass are a bit big on them and that HD600s are far more realistic sounding, "night and day" stuff but then also claim that specific cables speed-up transient response too! My memory of HD600s was that they sound very similar but a little thinner - possibly a little more analytical but really not very much in it at all and well within the scope of what you aclimatise to with use.

I have also ordered a pair of DT880s which sounded a little scratchy to me when I first tried them and I'll compare - their reputation is very good and I suspect that they may be the better option as work cans even if I don't actually like them as much. These cans get great love in some quarters but in others, apparently, the difference between the different versions (32, 250 and 600 Ohm) is, um, "night and day" and in some circles anything less than the 600 ohm version is actually rubbish. Hmm?!?

I'll make up my own mind between the HD650s and the 250 Ohm DT880 Pro but I don't have that much experience with headphones regarding how important some other factors are. I'm suspecting that this may be one of those exercises whereby after much fuss it becomes a 'photo finish' and any option will do rather well, but...

Would anyone who knows agree or disagree that the 600s and 650s are very similar albeit the 650s possibly a little creamier (I really don't want to have to add a third wheel to this process if I can reduce the Sennheiser decision to one model). Likewise is anyone in a position to comment on the difference that impedance is likely to make with the DT880 models (comparative data here

http://en.goldenears.net/index.php?mid=GR_Headphones&search_target=title&s earch_keyword=beyerdynamic&document_srl=11302)

Additional info; I'm driving the 'phones from the headphone output of an RME FF400 which is quite adequate to drive the HD650s into "too loud for me" territory, though according to some sources none of these cans are worth listening to without a Billy-Big-Bucks dedicated amp. And I know that AKG K701/702s are well thought of, but I'm trying to keep this relatively simple.

Appreciate any thoughts.

A.

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Andi, www.thedustbowl.net Mixing, Mastering, Audio Editing at The Dustbowl Audio

Quote Andi:

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I'm having a few doubts about their suitability for the job in hand - checking and fine tuning mix/master jobs of (mainly) pop, rock and metal and some acoustic music, because they sound very smooth

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I'd love to own such a nice set of headphones...at the moment I use a pair of humble HD430s (which I'm quite fond of). But surely this is highly subjective, especially when you're into cable territory. As long as they provide sufficient detail (as any headphones in this price range will) and you enjoy using them, isn't that all that matters....? I got the impression that the all-pervasiveness of the NS10s wasn't because they're particularly spectacular by modern standards, but more that they provided a convenient benchmark. Isn't it just a case of getting to know your equipment well enough that you can make reliable judgements about how it will translate...?

In general, I prefer Beyer headphones since they seam less 'hi-fi' - to me anyway, I agree that Senheisers can sometimes sound 'creamy' or whatever in comparison. Tis a small thing though and highly subjective.

The problem is that most headphones will show considerable 'bias' when you decide to complete work on them. Either pair will be good for correcting obvious errors, or honing in on the detail of sounds, but as soon as you decide to complete a mix on them, the next mourning something will betray the use of headphones when you put the mix up on monitors.

For that reason you can only really go with what feels nice to you, style and sound wise and dont fret it to much. Sometimes it takes months of more before a headphones vices become apparent anyhow.

And you are correct - headphones are a serious market now, and people put great store into their personal investment - and spout all kinds of rubbish and trash things on the basis of nothing but taste, and based on what kind of music they like as well - so its best to just chill and go with what ever speaks to you - with the proviso that you are not going for something with a pronounced 'hype'.

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Yes, it's highly, but not entirely subjective. The problem is that often nuances in equipment don't become apparent (at least to me they don't) until after familiarisation; this is why many good gear shops will loan-out equipment for evaluation. If someone else has experience that can guide me whilst I still have the opportunity to finalise my decision (which is the essential factor here) then I'll be happy to benefit from it. As I posted, I'll try the HD650s against the DT880s, but I don't have the scope to try all the variations of the HD6xx and DT880xxxOhm families with different amp options. All of this gear is in the "pretty damned good" category and I'd have to admit to being a right muppet to claim that I can't work without the right "one-and-only", but I'd still rather ask now than possibly regret later.

A.

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Andi, www.thedustbowl.net Mixing, Mastering, Audio Editing at The Dustbowl Audio

Quote Chaconne:

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Sometimes it takes months of more before a headphones vices become apparent anyhow.

...so its best to just chill and go with what ever speaks to you - with the proviso that you are not going for something with a pronounced 'hype'.

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Exactly!

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Andi, www.thedustbowl.net Mixing, Mastering, Audio Editing at The Dustbowl Audio

I have the Sen 650s and also a pair of AKG DT-150 closed headphones.

I agree that the 650s are a bit "nice" sounding and less easy to judge the bottom end. The AKG headphones are very good for examining the bass / kick drum relationship. I tend to alternate between them and also use monitors.

Not sure if that helps exactly - I guess I'm saying I don't have a one-stop shop for judging mixes and also I took a long time to get a relationship with these cans.

I have the Beyer DT880 Pros 250 ohm and haven't got anything bad to say about them. I bought them on the back of the headphones shoot out in SOS and opted for them, partly because of Mike Senior's critique and partly because I didn't have the budget for the HD650s. I've driven them with my RME Multiface, Presonus Audiobox and SSL Nucleus and haven't noticed any difference in sound quality (although none of the above have 'audiophile quality' headphone amps). For mixing purposes, after a few weeks of getting to know them, they are second-nature. Mixes seem to translate pretty well, with only a few minor tweaks needed now and again (mainly due to fatigue, I'd say).

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http://www.soundcloud.com/sambrox
seedy.dk

Interesting - I'm weighing up these two same pairs myself, for future purchase. I've already got some Beyer 150 and 250, for tracking and noodling rather than mixing. When I was shopping for a second pair, I arrived at the 250s after an hour or more of in-shop A/B/C/D-ing with various brands/models. There were several pairs I dismissed pretty quickly, but maybe three that I was repeatedly trying - and after a while I plumped for the Beyers mostly because I like the 'family sound', not because the others were in any way inferior, or the Beyers somehow objectively 'better'. They were also among the most comfortable.

As for the 650 vs 880, I've not found anywhere nearby with stock of both, so it'd have to be a blind buy... so I'm interested in what gets said here. AFAIK the 880s are semi-open, but whether that makes a difference I don't know - there are also some 990s which are open, but I've never seen any reviews.

OK, the practical aspect of this has reached a conclusion.

Firstly, be aware that headphones can't be returned, DV told me that because of the body contact element of them they can not be covered by the 30 day return guarantee, so my option to change has gone away anyway.

Secondly I tried another pair of DT880s and I still don't like them so much, though I do still think that they are probably better analytical mix tools.

Oddly, having figured that I would quite likely change the 650s for the 880s I actually found myself quite relieved because I really do love the sound of the HDs.

I have used them on some tracks of my own and listened to some CDs through them and the CDs sound good and I can hear detail in my own tracks. I suspect that the difference between the 2 sets of phones isn't so much what you can hear but what effect it has - the DTs seem to take things that stick out of the mix and throw them at you, the HDs let you hear them but you have to be listening. I'm not sure I could listen to the DTs for very long, I could probably live in the HDs. I think the DTs could make the job of mixing easier for the first hour or so, the HDs could make it more pleasant and I suspect that I could concentrate for longer.

After all that I can't rule-out the possibility of buying a pair of DTs as well at some point.

I've ruled-out worrying about the HD600s, life's too short and I strongly suspect that in a couple of weeks when I've forgotten about this it won't make a blind (or deaf) bit of difference to what I produce.

I'm now going to smear the velour pads of the HDs with Vaseline and lock myself in the studio for an hour

A.

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Andi, www.thedustbowl.net Mixing, Mastering, Audio Editing at The Dustbowl Audio

For what it's worth, I had a pair of HD650's for a couple of years, but, never got on with them. I couldn't mix the bass correctly - not something I found in common with the other members of this forum.

I changed to the DT880 pro, and found them to be a little more accurate.

One thing I will say, is good quality headphones need a lot of burning-in before they're at the top of their game. I noticed this with both the HD650s and the DT880s.

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www.thediplomatz.com