Something strange is happening here.
The Scramble quote above - Scramble never said that. sthum did!

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17ft here! Too deep for non divers.

I think your original post should become a sticky because it does provide so much information for anyone new to the business. Starting a limited company is probably the easiest way to deal with the taxman (with a good accountant). So many people get into this business without understanding that every £1000 is really £750 and anyone who wants to start a record label needs to understand this. In reality, they don't because it is all about making music, and creative people hate to read your very relevant advice. I am just trying to keep it simple for them.

Quote sthum:

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How many people here genuinely believe that you can still make it in the music business without a record deal?

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Define "Make it"!

Do you mean getting on TOTP, breakfast TV, being a celeb, maybe a photo in The Sun and getting to #1 with 5,000 sales (but maybe some good royalties if you penned it yourself ... which you might have but maybe co-writers and producers and publishers will step in to take the larger slice) until being knocked out of the way by the next young contender and you're forgotten?

Or do you mean making a solid living from the business, working every day, doing interesting stuff, meeting interesting people, working with seriously clever and talented individuals, travelling the world maybe, challenging yourself in ventures new, getting paid, getting booked, being in demand (having too much work, in fact) such that YOU dictate your fee and they don't argue.

Or perhaps a violinist gigging regularly in a quartet, doing session work, going on tour from time to time, dep'ing in an orchestra and making a (decent) living ... or maybe a pianist accompanying choirs and stuff, doing tours, maybe augmenting that with a bit of private tuition hedge and there as and when.

Just as there are many ways to skin a cat, there are many ways to make a living in the music biz if you look for/make and grab opportunities, build on that, build a reputation for reliability and professionalism such that you don't chase work, people chase you.

Or does "Make It" = chart topping celeb?

I don't wish to take this off topic and to reel it in, I have a small record label. It specialises in esoteric, abstract electronica. No-one makes a fortune from it but it does ok and my 'artistes' have their fingers in other pies (even if it's just a day job) but hopefully, I'll grow it and it will expand. It will never be a 'major' label (and it's more of a 'co-operative' than a real record label) but it earns a few bob for those involved.

Hope this helps.

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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Times have changed, and starting your own record label is not so hard. You do not have to compete with EMI or STAX etc. When I started out I read a great SOS article from 2002, but it did not apply to nowadays.

Anyone can start their own label, and many do, with digital downloads etc and imagine they are in the scene. This might surprise you, but the best labels in this weird scene, do produce their music on vinyl because the best musicians seek them out. They do this because they are genuinly talented, respected, and have masterers/producers who really want to work with them because they can make money.

So the joy of getting your music out there is free from the Gordy's of the 60/70's but despite the gangsters, you still have to read posts from Scramble/Feline etc and work hard on getting profits from your music in 2012. Also you have to be so good that your taste always hits the top ten in your genre. Good luck because it is hard.

PS Harmund why are you changing your name more often than you change your vest?

Edited by atechnogirl (09/04/12 09:54 PM)

Quote sthum:

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How many people here genuinely believe that you can still make it in the music business without a record deal?

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Well, the thing is Andrew, the music biz is a diverse bizniz with lots of facets innit. All those facets present opportunities in differing amounts.

If you mean by 'making it', work full time and make a very nice living, then this is perfectly possible with talent, hard work, persistence, a pleasant amiable manner, a sense of humour and a generous girlfriend who will support you through the first few lean years.

Why are you talking in a Mancurian accent to someone from the USA? Some of what you say is fine, such as being nice, but I think your post is patronising unless you are really from Oasis which I bet you are not. This is what is so wrong with this forum. It tends to not address the original question, which incase you want to come back at me, I did try to do. On reading it again, you might be pretending to be an East End boy. It is odd.

Edited by atechnogirl (13/04/12 10:02 PM)

You won't get an answer atechnogirl, the witty poster is no longer among us.

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

I do not like being responsible for the demise of a 2005 poster. Anyway back to the old grey whisle test (BBC 4) , and touching up my Marilyn roots .

Many thanks Hollowsun.. I suppose I'm talking about Option 2.. (working everyday, doing interesting stuff)!

I thought about doing everything myself but doubt I'd have the time or energy to start up my own record label never mind maintain, promote and mentor young bands coming up..

I take my hat off to all of you guys/gals for doing just that, especially at a time when the music business is literally on its knees because of piracy and the like..

Exceptional threads like this are indeed a godsend to anyone wanting to or thinking of starting their own label!

By reading this I have realised that I don't have the time to commit to it.. So therefore I can now concentrate on other stuff.. which is great!

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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You won't get an answer atechnogirl, the witty poster is no longer among us.

Hugh

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Interesting. Especially considering I was threatened with being banned for suggesting that that poster was likely a troll/and/or/sockpuppet.

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~~~ A weasel hath not such a deal of spleen as you are tossed with! www.feline1.co.uk ~~~

Quote feline1:

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Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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You won't get an answer atechnogirl, the witty poster is no longer among us.

Hugh

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Interesting. Especially considering I was threatened with being banned for suggesting that that poster was likely a troll/and/or/sockpuppet.

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The member in question requested that his account be deleted. Meanwhile, back at the subject...

Quote Mike Stranks:

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Quote feline1:

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Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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You won't get an answer atechnogirl, the witty poster is no longer among us.

Hugh

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Interesting. Especially considering I was threatened with being banned for suggesting that that poster was likely a troll/and/or/sockpuppet.

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The member in question requested that his account be deleted. Meanwhile, back at the subject...

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Cool.
I'm sure that persistent rumours that they were actually one of the moderators are unfounded

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~~~ A weasel hath not such a deal of spleen as you are tossed with! www.feline1.co.uk ~~~

Quote feline1:

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I'm sure that persistent rumours that they were actually one of the moderators are unfounded

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I can assure you that the two gentlemen in question were most certainly not moderators, and the only rumours were the ones you were making up! Now... any constructive advice on starting record labels?

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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the only rumours were the ones you were making up!

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No they were not - that suggestion was made to me independently by about half a dozen different long-term forum users. I did not "make up" anything of the sort.

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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Now... any constructive advice on starting record labels?

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What, like the several hundreds of words I've already contributed to the thread?

Quote feline1:

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No they were not - that suggestion was made to me independently by about half a dozen different long-term forum users. I did not "make up" anything of the sort.

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There was a smiley to indicate a humourous intent, but I stand corrected nevertheless. However, I shall reitterate that you and they remain completely incorrect in those allegations.

Quote feline1:

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What, like the several hundreds of words I've already contributed to the thread?

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Yes, like those... It would be better for everyone if you could stick to the topic rather than voice your unhelpful and tedious conspiracy theories.

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

I enjoyed being a part of vinyl week. All new labels should have a good distributor for vinyl. Also, I am distressed by a PM I got because someone keeps calling me a sock puppet. It is time this forum grew up, or went to the doctor for para pills. Can I just ask...are you up to date with the music scene, or is it down the pub with the grey beards of the '60's and the grumpy old men syndrome?
In vinyl week I found out that it will never work, because everyone is used to getting their music for free. It annoys me, but I had to face the truth of "we can't afford it" I said, well, save up for it...got laughed at. I think the SOS forum is stuck in the past and irrelevant as to what is happening now, but I do respect it.

Can I respectfully ask that this thread not get used for complaints about other forum issues?

I'm currently reading The Indie Band Survival Guide book -- it's pretty good so far.

Without sounding like a troll, I would hope for the same...although the survival of indie bands is never going to happen. Like all scenes, you had to be there and make your money at that time, such as Kasabian.

Quote atechnogirl:

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I enjoyed being a part of vinyl week. All new labels should have a good distributor for vinyl. Also, I am distressed by a PM I got because someone keeps calling me a sock puppet. It is time this forum grew up, or went to the doctor for para pills. Can I just ask...are you up to date with the music scene, or is it down the pub with the grey beards of the '60's and the grumpy old men syndrome?
In vinyl week I found out that it will never work, because everyone is used to getting their music for free. It annoys me, but I had to face the truth of "we can't afford it" I said, well, save up for it...got laughed at. I think the SOS forum is stuck in the past and irrelevant as to what is happening now, but I do respect it.

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I agree that in certain genres of dance music if you don't have vinyl, you are a joke. But it only applies to certain scenes.

Quote johnny h:

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I agree that in certain genres of dance music if you don't have vinyl, you are a joke. But it only applies to certain scenes.

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Techno, trance and rave mainly.

The only direct contact I've ever had with a 'label' starting up is with these guys.

http://www.griet.co.za/main/

Basically it all started from two or three bands gigging together.
The earliest I recall them doing things is back in 2005. So it has taken a long time.

Quite simply, they didn't start with the idea to 'create a label'
I don't think any succesful independent label starts as a business idea.

They started playing gigs, locally. They started playing together because it was easier to organise shows with like minded folks, with their friends who wouldn't let them down and would actually show up for gigs. They started making little bits of money, enough to organise more shows and gain more fans/enthusiastic followers.

Over time it snowballed into including organising/booking shows, 'managing' the artists, attempting to sell merchandise and thus getting involved in art/with other artists. They started touring the country and putting these same feelers out into other cities thus finding more like minded bands and artists.

Eventually they want to record music and figure they can sell it at shows, they all start using the same studio/producer/friend to do it. They opened a small record store to sell music they made and music they loved that was hard to get hold of.
Stepping up to club money together and do short overseas tours, making enough money to cover costs.

They created their own 'scene'.

None of this is planned at the outset.
How could you ever plan to do this?

It only works because every person involved is passionate and has a vested interest.
Along the way they pick up dead weight, I was in a couple of bands connected to this groups 'scene' gigging with their core bands and such. Till we moved on or imploded.

The core guys still do what the do, DJ their own shows, organise gigs for the artists they know and are involved with in all the cities they've found like minded people.
I doubt anyone makes huge amounts of money, especially in the absolutely tiny scene South Africa has going. Sending artists on international tours must be ridiculously expensive for one thing.

But the business works, they have fun they all work together no matter what they are doing.
And it has taken them a very very long time to get to this point.

It all comes back to everyone involved beging an artist, making art anyway and snowballing their ideas and talent along with many many other people who like the same things they do.

Their is absoultely no certainty that it would work.

I think having a decent idea of what you want to do before you get going is good, but I also think this stuff comes naturally when it has to.
'Oh we need to book a tour now, how do we do it...'
'We want to sell some music we recorded now, because we have a fan base to sell it to, what do we need to do'

Knowing everything before hand and setting up a business plan is no sure road to success.
Growing a proper fan base by working every single week at gigging and then taking the steps as they come is the way I think it gets done.

The company I gave as an example bears this out and I think every single other succesful 'indie' label on the planet started this way too, no matter what genre.
Except for a few examples started from the ground up with lots of funds from a 'major' label, although often even then the major just buys out a smaller label precisely because they have followed this long path and become succesful.

If there are enough people doing what they love, and enough people loving what those people are doing, it can grow organically. As long as everyone stays grounded and realistic.

hollowaxis post was brilliant

music "can" be considered an art form you know - not just a profit making "business"

I bet they make the best music in south africa too!


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http://soundcloud.com/seaapes

The post by Hollowaxis is right up my street. However, it is the innovators who are doing vinyl and it does not stop at dance music. If you saw Jools Holland tonight you might have seen Jack White advertise his new album on vinyl. The respect Jools has for this guy is that he wants him to take over the show if he dies. After vinyl week I really hope this takes off, because to touch and own a record is something that a lot of people don't understand. To polish it and keep it safe beats digital hands down and it might help when it comes to piracy, which could look naff in the not too distant future. It is all about fashion really.

Edited by atechnogirl (24/04/12 09:39 PM)

we release vinyl only.

500 unit runs per release.

we sell them ourselves through online webshops using paypal as well as with a distributor..

we do pre-orders and use some of that to manufacture the vinyl.

we make a very healthy profit but it goes right back into the business as development funds.

we are not affected by piracy at all.

we are not in with PRS. we don't have to be.

we own all copyright on the recording and 50% publishing with the artist.

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I'm All Ears.