Any multiple keyboard players out there who use their own mixer to PA? what do you do?
Do you have one DI out of the mix or multiple DIs for each keyboard into the mix?
Or....do you even need a DI box at all if you have a good mixer? thinking about the A&H
ZED14 for live and recording.

Quote stef77:

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Any multiple keyboard players out there who use their own mixer to PA? what do you do?
Do you have one DI out of the mix or multiple DIs for each keyboard into the mix?
Or....do you even need a DI box at all if you have a good mixer? thinking about the A&H
ZED14 for live and recording.

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I think "it depends".

I do live sound for a band that uses about 8 different analogue synths on stage... what we ended up doing was buying an 1U 8-way DI box, and a 8-way XLR loom to go from that to the house stage box, so that on the FoH desk I had each synth on its own channel.

However before that, I was one of two keyboard players in a band that also had about 8 synths on stage.... but we didn't have our own soundguy - so we each had our own submixer for our own rigs, and just sent a stereo feed from these to the stage box (in retrospect, I think we could've just have well sent a mono feed from our submixers!)


I think the main consideration is how much variation in levels there will be on your different instruments between different songs (or parts of songs) - if there will be a lot of level changes, then you either need your own sound guy, or the players need to submix themselves (as I house sound guy will never have much chance of getting the levels right)

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~~~ A weasel hath not such a deal of spleen as you are tossed with! www.feline1.co.uk ~~~

Quote feline1:

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I think the main consideration is how much variation in levels there will be on your different instruments between different songs (or parts of songs) - if there will be a lot of level changes, then you either need your own sound guy, or the players need to submix themselves (as I house sound guy will never have much chance of getting the levels right)

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What a strange statement! Isn't it the MUSICIAN'S job to play at an appropriate level, judged against what he hears in his monitors? The sound guy may have bring keyboards up or down overall, but he shouldn't have to take responsibility for balance within the "keyboards" instrument.

Quote Exalted Wombat:

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What a strange statement! Isn't it the MUSICIAN'S job to play at an appropriate level, judged against what he hears in his monitors? The sound guy may have bring keyboards up or down overall, but he shouldn't have to take responsibility for balance within the "keyboards" instrument.

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I'm talking about a style of song where you might have (say) one synth being the bass, another doing a lead line, another doing some chords, another doing twiddly bits.... and then in the next song, they'll all swap roles.....

It's very hard for a soundman who doesn't know the songs to figure out what's going on (the song'll be over before he does! lol) and it's also rather unreliable to try and get musicians to balance themselves through monitors, particularly as regards bass (which will be much quieter coming through wedges).

Basically what I was suggesting is "get your own sound guy, who learns your songs, to do your mix! (and give him as many DI-ed channels as you can)" - but if you don't have your own sound guy, then sub-mixing multiple keys yourself on stage is probably more practical.

It's fairly easy for a house soundguy to work out that a bass guitarist is playing bass, that a lead guitarist is doing a solo, etc...... but it's very tricky to twig that one of half a dozen keyboards is playing a particular part.

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~~~ A weasel hath not such a deal of spleen as you are tossed with! www.feline1.co.uk ~~~

I used a three keyboard rig into a little Spirit Folio mixer and into a pair of DI boxes. That worked fine. And I knew where I needed to manage my own levels due to different patches perceived loudness.

Lately I've been favouring a hybrid solution with the Roland Fantom combined with Mainstage on a MacBook pro, using the Fantom's built in audio interface capabilities for the virtual instruments, and it's own internal sound engine. Which meant I balanced all the audio in Manstage's virtual mixer.

But it means more patch juggling, and I did actually prefer having more than one keyboard on stage.

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New album 'Fantasy Bridge' available now!
Making of Fantasy Bridge Diary

Quote Exalted Wombat:

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The sound guy may have bring keyboards up or down overall, but he shouldn't have to take responsibility for balance within the "keyboards" instrument.

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Ideally no, but in practise it's not too unlikely. Even if it's perfectly balanced in the practise room, you could well find that the venue PA responds differently and suddenly something that seemed to cut through nicely is far too quiet, or vice versa. It might not be levels that need adjusting, so much as EQ.

Of course it comes down to the old debate of whether it's the soundman or the musicians who should be responsible for the tonal balance of the band. Personally I think it's a two-level thing: the musicians are initially responsible; but if they don't/won't/can't do it then the soundman is the backstop to ensure the customers get a decent gig. Which means the soundman should know when to reach for the faders *AND* when to take those sticky mitts away and let the band work it themselves.

You can practically *guarentee* that what seemed a sensible balance in a practice room will sound like hell in a venue. The reverberation time will be different, the volume will be different, the frequency response of the PA will be different (and the monitors will be different to *that*), and the frequency response of the room will be different!
And if you're using analogue synths with no memories, the source sounds can easily be a bit different too!

Good arranging of songs can help (i.e. having keyboard parts which don't overlap in the same frequency register)..... but things are always going to require a bit of fader riding.

The best-placed person to hear what is required at that moment in time is the person on the FoH desk...

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~~~ A weasel hath not such a deal of spleen as you are tossed with! www.feline1.co.uk ~~~

Quote MarkOne:

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I used a three keyboard rig into a little Spirit Folio mixer and into a pair of DI boxes.

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Did you DI before the Mix Or after out the Mix.You said you had a 3 keyboard rig and a pair of DIs please explain 2 keys in one mono DI and 1 key in the other DI mono?

I have 6 keys and never have used a DI plus I like to go out stereo...but people are telling me I should use a DI box all the guitarist are as well.Does it really make a difference tonally?

Edited to correct quoting syntax error

Edited by Hugh Robjohns (16/04/12 04:53 PM)

Quote feline1:

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You can practically *guarentee* that what seemed a sensible balance in a practice room will sound like hell in a venue. The reverberation time will be different, the volume will be different, the frequency response of the PA will be different (and the monitors will be different to *that*), and the frequency response of the room will be different!

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Feline I agree with you entirely this has happen so many times it's not funny.
A musician should be in control to a certain extent to their volume but!!! with multiple keys
its a fine line sometimes. I try to program all my keys ahead of time to a balance of volume
but when coming to live performance it has to be done again depending on the song, sound patch,
dynamics,etc.........................So yes I agree with Feline its not always easily done.

Edited to correct quoting syntax error

Edited by Hugh Robjohns (16/04/12 04:54 PM)

Quote stef77:

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Did you DI before the Mix Or after out the Mix.

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It sounds to me like he used two mono DIs to handle the left and right outputs of the mixer -- ie DI'd the stereo mix.

Quote:

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people are telling me I should use a DI box all the guitarist are as well.Does it really make a difference tonally?

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Yes, it can.

The problem is that most keyboards have unbalanced outputs, and that makes them prone to ground loop hums and interference when sent down a long multicore to the FOH mix console. In some cases, it can also be problematic for some mixers to cope with line level iputs on their mic connectors.

The advantage of the DI box is that it converts the unbalanced synth output to a balanced form very close to the instrument, usually includes a ground lift function to avoid ground loops, and sends a mic-level signal down the multicore which is often what the FOH console is expecting. Yes, it's a bit silly knocking a line level keyboard output down to mic level, only to have to boost it again in the console mic preamp, but the losses are negligible in a PA context and the convenience makes it worth while.

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Hugh got there first...

Don't forget that you can get stereo DI boxes which are usually a bit more cost-effective, as well as saving physical space. For keyboard outputs you can use either active or passive boxes which may also help in the 'costs' stakes.

BUT don't cut too many cost-corners when buying. If you've spent lots of dosh on the instruments why compromise your sound by refusing to pay more than £25 for DIs?

Hugh's review of some useful products from Orchid Electronics of Exeter must be very imminent now...

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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Yes, it can.

The problem is that most keyboards have unbalanced outputs, and that makes them prone to ground loop hums and interference when sent down a long multicore to the FOH mix console.




I agree completely thats why i purchased the FurmanPower conditioner which solved most of the problems but not all But!!! a friend of mine lent me his HUM-X whereby you plug your whole system (mine that is) to the HUM-X as the final to the outlet and it was amazing.NO HUM

Edited by stef77 (16/04/12 05:27 PM)

Over the last few years I have :

- used a balanced stereo pair to the PA from a single keyboard
- used a single output from my monitor + DI box (largely for the -20db pad) from a single keyboard into the monitor (balanced connection again)
- used a small mixer + balanced stereo pair to the PA where the mixer was just to sum the two keyboards

In all cases, I programmed the main board (Kurzweil PC3) so that the volume levels were all sensible. If you programme based on a decent monitor (don't use headphones!), the level balance is usually about right.

My next iteration will be 2 Kurzweils (PC3 + K2661) using balanced connections to the mixer and balanced outs to the PA. Not a DI box in sight and a lovely clean, clear sound. Yum..

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Veni, Vidi, Aesculi
(I came, I saw, I conkered)

Quote stef77:

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.. problem is that most keyboards have unbalanced outputs...

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erm ... you are using the wrong keyboards then ...

Seriously, it drives me potty that manufacturers use unbalanced connections. Now I just use a reputable brand who understand about quality - and don't skimp on it. But if I were to use one of my older synths, I would have a _VERY_ short length of unbalanced cable. Not had any problems with those either...

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Veni, Vidi, Aesculi
(I came, I saw, I conkered)

Thanks for all your input all of you guys i really appreciate it
by the way Dave I noticed you have the Kurzwweil PC3 is that the same as the Pc361?
see my thread.I think you have the same patch sets.