Just when my bank balance seemed safe and my wife speaking to me... I'm starting to wonder if I need a bunch of Prisms!

At the moment I'm running a MOTU 24i/o to run our Audient ASP8024 ins and outs along side a 2408 for my external pres and the master desk mix (which runs back to Logic on the last of the 2408's 2 analogue ins)

I'm happy enough tracking and mixing but I'm now starting to notice that once I've recorded the desk mix back, I'm sure I'm hearing less bottom end, flatter top and just a generally flatter mix with a lot less life and sparkle.

Of course it makes sense that its at this stage that I'd notice as during tracking I'm hearing the converters right off the bat as opposed to the difference between hearing the direct sound from the console compared straight after to that sound but through the MOTU.

I've always been happy with the MOTUs. At the price, they've ticked all the boxes for us for years. But maybe its time I invested in, at least a nice stereo AD for recording my mixes??

Of course I'd be highly surprised if anyone told me NOT to around here But I thought I'd share

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http://www.loverslanestudios.co.uk

Anything else in the chain between the desk and the converter?

If I were in your shoes, I'd be looking to rent something before I splashed out.

If you are right, then you should be able to play a mix back through the desk and record back in and double check that there is even worse loss. A few generations of that will confirm the extent. But I'd look into swapping cables,etc first before I shelled out on an expensive 2ch AD...

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Veni, Vidi, Aesculi
(I came, I saw, I conkered)

Quote Persuazion:

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I'm happy enough tracking and mixing but I'm now starting to notice that once I've recorded the desk mix back, I'm sure I'm hearing less bottom end, flatter top and just a generally flatter mix with a lot less life and sparkle.

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The MOTUs are good value for money, and they are perfectly adequate for most home musicians. But they have their limitations and what you're describing fits in with my own impressions very well.

It might be an idea to try and get some high-end converters on loan to see what difference that makes....

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Blumin' great idea! Never crossed my mind and we deal with hire companies all the time. Good call, thanks guys!

I may as well ask while I'm here... What converters should I look at? I may as well try different ones and not just jump into prisms straight away! Or should I?

I think the master mix is the most important thing so I'll probably be looking at straight stereo AD for now before jumping into 8s or even 24!

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http://www.loverslanestudios.co.uk

Hmmm.... No nice ADs from Studio Care, our usual hire guys. Any suggestions?

UK By the way

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http://www.loverslanestudios.co.uk

http://www.fxgroup.net/Pro%20audio

I've hired 2 channel Prisms from here before.

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I'm All Ears.

Edited by ken long (20/04/12 10:37 AM)

Quote Persuazion:

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Any suggestions?

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Some of the better retail outlets will do a loan period to try out...

If you want converters with a bit of analogue attitude, try the Burl Bomber offerings or the UA2192.

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/nov10/articles/burlb2.htm
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/aug10/articles/ua-2192-master.htm

Otherwise look at Benchmark, Lavry, Lynx, Apogee, DAD, Prism ...

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Spend the money if you like. Consider, though, that it's 99% for YOUR listening pleasure. Differences between the various playback systems your customers use will swamp any effect by several orders of magnitude!

I used to run a couple of 24IOs and agree with you and Hugh. They're not *bad* by any means, but the difference between those and even reasonably modestly priced converters (compared with the Prism stuff) was audible to me.

I was forced (when I upgraded my DAW machine, and the motherboard — which I needed for something else, long story, unnecessary tangent — proved incompatible with the MOTU system) to look for alternatives. I had the old machine so had the chance to AB the old and new systems (admittedly not in anything like blind-test conditions. The RME Fireface and the Creamware/Sonic Core converters both seemed better than the 24IO. That said, MOTU do better converters than that unit. I'm not saying that these are the be all and end all of converters — I know Apogee, Prism, Lynx, Lavry, UA, Burl, Benchmark, RME themselves... and several others, do far superior stuff — but it's worth mentioning this if you're simply looking for an incremental but clearly audible improvement on the MOTU.

But if you're in a position to borrow/hire and test, then that's by far and away the best way to go...

Quote Exalted Wombat:

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Spend the money if you like. Consider, though, that it's 99% for YOUR listening pleasure. Differences between the various playback systems your customers use will swamp any effect by several orders of magnitude!

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Yeah... but by that argument, you might as well work with mashed up MP3s on tinny speakers all the way through the process! It's just about where you draw the line.

It gets to a point of diminishing returns with the money you splash out on these things but I reckon its still important that you can hear what's going on, and that you can hear many layers of detail more than the end listener in order that you have absolute control over what's going on. Not to mention feeling the joy of the thing as you mix, which kinda affects how it all turns out in the end!

Don't want to be personal P (but i'm gonna!)
How old are you?

I can vouch for the fact that everyone in the world mumbles and tellies simply do not have the crisp punchy power of twenty years ago!

Dave.

Quote Mixedup:

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It gets to a point of diminishing returns with the money you splash out on these things but I reckon its still important that you can hear what's going on, and that you can hear many layers of detail more than the end listener in order that you have absolute control over what's going on.

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Well, sort of! It's important to know what's happening in the low bass, 'cos some listeners WILL have big speakers and terrible things can go unnoticed in that range. But the trouble with hearing ultra-detail is that it can distract from poor overall balance. Hence the listen from the next room, play in the car.. technique. Who was recently telling us about the "popcorn" mix technique for movies? Add a noise track emulating the background noise of a cinema and a much more useful mix results.

And DO make sure you (and others) can really hear the difference!

The more detail, the better it has been for me, always!

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PA stuff on FB

Quote Guy Johnson:

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The more detail, the better it has been for me, always!

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You don't do the "next room" and "lo-fi playback" tests then?

This is a serious point. Squeaky-clean hi-fi "detail" can make things audible which will be buried in the mix on a more real-world playback system. Sometimes you have to paint with a broader brush.

One does not preclude the other! of course I do the next room. And laptop speakers. And headphones. And the van. And my local's awful sound system.

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PA stuff on FB

Fair enough. It's just that you said "always". Pragmatically I have to accept that my more audiophile gear is for me, the rougher stuff is for the customers!

Always as in ... always!

I want to hear the most detail. Always. Doesn't mean I cannot choose other listening modes as well. They are not mutually exclusive!

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PA stuff on FB

Quote Guy Johnson:

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Always as in ... always!

I want to hear the most detail. Always. Doesn't mean I cannot choose other listening modes as well. They are not mutually exclusive!

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Well...yes they are! "Always" leaves no room for exceptions. Sometimes, as you agreed, we need to listen in a way that takes a broader view of the music.

You've obviously sold yourself on the Prism anyway. Enjoy!

Er ... no. Always in this case refers to the best possible monitoring. As in 'I always like the best possible'. Doesn't preclude other modes, as mentioned before.

Where did the Prism thing come from? I'm happy with my monitoring at the moment!

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PA stuff on FB

Quote Guy Johnson:

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One does not preclude the other!

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+1. I want to make the best thing possible. And then I want to make sure it translates to (near enough)the lowest common denominator in terms of playback systems. So eg the bassline can at least be heard on shitty systems, and the lyrics are intelligible on the average TV etc etc. But I don't want anyone with a decent system to cringe at ugly resonances or a shifting phantom centre of whatever... and for that stuff, you need a decent monitoring system.

As EW suggests, I *can* find ultra-fine detail distracting at certain times. When composing/writing in particular. I don't like to start a mix on my HD650s either, as I find I get distracted from the 'big picture' of the mix sometimes. I much prefer to mix on speakers for that reason. Tbh, I'll happily start to get a rough static balance on laptop speakers or whatever. But when mixing in earnest, you really do need critical mix tools. The same's also true of recording. I want to hear all the crap that I want to remove/correct while tracking - I want to know what I'm recording; whereas the artist cue mix is often less critical (at least, for me as a musician, that is).

Hello unpersuaded:

First off, big caveat, I'm not a MOTU user.

Could it be that the DA converters are worse than the AD converters? And when you audition your material, what's the chain for that? Have you tried routing a mix through something else that has different DA converters? Even cheap converters, like those on your computer. And finally, is there any sample rate conversion going on in your auditioning/post processing? (That can be huge!)

If you do try some other converters, I'd be interested in knowing what your current material sounds like through different DA converters, in addition to using different AD converters from the get go.

Tell your significant other the money will be far less than therapy and drugs, and she'll get an instantly happier partner. How could anyone argue with that? Or you could give the new gear to her for her birthday or as an anniversary gift...........

Hey folks. Been away so only just back to this post.

It sounds a bit like some folks are thinking this is strictly for *my* monitoring and DA. However its actually for printing the stereo desk mix back to DAW (AD) so far from just for my monitoring. Its the final product.

No extra conversion going on.

I'm going to experiment with my Audient Black ADC (I've no room in the rack for it but it'd be interesting to hear a different converter)

I shall report back!

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http://www.loverslanestudios.co.uk

I've spent quite a lot of time looking at this, and own the motu 24io, 2408 mk3 and hd192.
The 24io and 2408 mk3 share the same converters and analogue design, however when i got the hd192 and recently borrowed a Lavry blue the differences were obvious. Then i had a bit of an epiphany.. i clocked the motu's from the lavry and all of a sudden everything was a lot sharper and more defined. Doing a/b comparisons with the lavry (using my mackie big knob to swap), the difference to my ears was almost indestinguishable (apart from the lower noise floor on the lavry, when the volume was really cranked) .

So the secret to getting the best sound out of the motus is to run them from a high accuracy clock.
I think i'm going to replace the borrowed lavry with a mutec mc3 for less than £500... otherwise a black lion microclock, or big ben would all give the same result.

This difference isnt there on devices with decent clocking, it made no discernable difference on a rme ufx that i tried, but the crystal used in the motus is just a bit (lot) on the poor side.

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www.theautobots.com / www.scan.co.uk

Good point. However we do have the Rosendahl Nanoclocks here which everything is clocked from (as it happens, not much at the moment).

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http://www.loverslanestudios.co.uk