It's the use of the Ab7 chord, below. Sorry I can't talk in terms of dominant, etc...

1) The song chorus is in Fm, more or less (chords Fm, Bb, Ab, but with a C7 instead of a Cm).
2) The transition out of the chorus to the break is via a prolonged C7 ; the break itself is in the key of G (really the a kind of Am key - i.e. with one sharp - if that makes any sense).

3) It's in the transition out of the break to get back to the chorus chorus that the Ab7 chord appears:

BREAK (2nd time through, to get back to the chorus)
Am C D7 Ab7 C7

(And of course the C7 leads back to the Fm-type chorus ).

So my question is, what kind of chord is the Ab7 in this context? I knew I needed to get from the D7 of the break to the C7 of the chorus somehow, and that's the only way that sounded right at the time. Does the Ab7 chord have a functional name, is its use here fairly standard in some fashion?

Thanks!

--------------------
Alexis -Cubase 6.5.0/SX3.1.1.944, XP SP2, 4GB RAM (1GB not accessible, but used just to balance the computer so it doesn't tip over); Delta 66 in Omni i/O Studio; Motif8; UAD-1

Just passing, so only a quick comment: the Ab7 is a tritone substitution for D7 (simplest way to think is that they share the same 7th and 3rd notes, albeit swapped over), so you could regard them as the same chord, just with a different bass-note.

Quote Pauly99:

---

Just passing, so only a quick comment: the Ab7 is a tritone substitution for D7 (simplest way to think is that they share the same 7th and 3rd notes, albeit swapped over), so you could regard them as the same chord, just with a different bass-note.

---

Thanks, Pauly99 - that's a really interesting way of thinking about chords, I will start doing that from this point on!

For this example, though: The chord immediately before the Ab7 is already a D7, so I'm thinking the Ab7 isn't functioning as a substitution for, as much as a transition from, the D7. Or ??? ...

I think maybe rephrasing my question: how common is transitioning from the key of "sort of G" (one sharp, but the emphasis is Am rather than G) to the key of "sort of Fm" (meaning the E is not flatted: the chords of the chorus are Fm-Bb-C7) via an Ab7? I don't think I've ever had to make a pivot between chords like that before,it was the only one that "sounded" right as I searched for it. I'm going with it, but just wondering ... is it a ho hum transition for people that really know what they're doing?

--------------------
Alexis -Cubase 6.5.0/SX3.1.1.944, XP SP2, 4GB RAM (1GB not accessible, but used just to balance the computer so it doesn't tip over); Delta 66 in Omni i/O Studio; Motif8; UAD-1

a G7 would probably been more normal I would have thought. The A flat as you have observed is not really going anywhere from the D7. Tritone sub. as has been pointed out.

Quote fletcher:

---

a G7 would probably been more normal I would have thought. The A flat as you have observed is not really going anywhere from the D7. Tritone sub. as has been pointed out.

---

G7 - Thanks for that, fletcher! I will try a G7 there when I get home. Though I like the Ab7 there for some reason (familiarity, by now?), if the G7 is better - we'll use it!

Thanks again -

--------------------
Alexis -Cubase 6.5.0/SX3.1.1.944, XP SP2, 4GB RAM (1GB not accessible, but used just to balance the computer so it doesn't tip over); Delta 66 in Omni i/O Studio; Motif8; UAD-1

to be honest playing the chords you mention the Ab is leading you back to Amin and not C7. Sounds odd.

Dont quite understand your question,r u wondering about harmonic minor mode?
in Key of A harmonic minor,you will have E7 ( got G# ) whereas in minor will Am Em and use G7.

About Ab7 C7 maybe the composer tried to do sequence of Ab Bb C like John William's superman theme?
BTW if it sounds right to you go for it,there're many ways to explain modes. ( Ab is major key of Fm)

--------------------
My facebook
My soundcloud

your welcome Alexis. It is possible that with the right melody or rhythm all sorts of "wrong" chords might work, so with out hearing the track and just from the chords it is only possible to offer the "right" suggestions for the chords.

You basically have a song with a key change. The first part is in F minor, the second in A minor. Having a C7 in the F minor part is quite normal in a minor key. The A minor section is as you have spotted related to G major, it is a mode of G and is called the Dorian mode. It is one of the most common ways of playing a minor progression, many people write songs like this without ever knowing what modes are.

The point your interested in is going back to the F minor section from the A minor part. As you have realised the C7 is good way to do this, but how to get to it from the D7?. The most common way to connect chords is a cycle of fourths, hence my suggestion of G7 instead of the A flat 7. However if you like the sound of the A flat why not use both. Try D7 to A flat 7 (tritone sub) to G7 to the C7. Or maybe replace the C7 with a G flat 7 (tritone sub) to give a nice chromatic line back to the F. Of course only suggestions, I have no idea how time, space and the groove might influence this.

The things you want to look into are cycles of fourths (or fifths) and tritone substitution. A good understanding of these will help understand a lot of progressions.

Good luck.

Edited by fletcher (23/04/12 08:56 PM)

Quote fletcher:

---

your welcome Alexis. It is possible that with the right melody or rhythm all sorts of "wrong" chords might work, so with out hearing the track and just from the chords it is only possible to offer the "right" suggestions for the chords.

You basically have a song with a key change. The first part is in F minor, the second in A minor. Having a C7 in the F minor part is quite normal in a minor key. The A minor section is as you have spotted related to G major, it is a mode of G and is called the Dorian mode. It is one of the most common ways of playing a minor progression, many people write songs like this without ever knowing what modes are.

The point your interested in is going back to the F minor section from the A minor part. As you have realised the C7 is good way to do this, but how to get to it from the D7?. The most common way to connect chords is a cycle of fourths, hence my suggestion of G7 instead of the A flat 7. However if you like the sound of the A flat why not use both. Try D7 to A flat 7 (tritone sub) to G7 to the C7. Or maybe replace the C7 with a G flat 7 (tritone sub) to give a nice chromatic line back to the F. Of course only suggestions, I have no idea how time, space and the groove might influence this.

The things you want to look into are cycles of fourths (or fifths) and tritone substitution. A good understanding of these will help understand a lot of progressions.

Good luck.

---

Hello again, Fletcher, and thank you again! Just the kind of thing I was hoping to get ... something to get me thinking. Sounds like the Ab7 isn't a typical "go to" transition to the C7 in these circumstances (as maybe a G7 would be), but (as always) if I think it works, go with it.

I'm looking forward to trying out that G7. That chromatic drop you mention, Ab7-G7 reminds me a bit of an old Lennon-McCartney song, "World Without Love". As the bit I'm writing about has accusation/anger/rejection/sorrow in there (think Dylan, "Don't Think Twice, it's All Right") , I wonder if I'll be able to get that jaunty little Beatles transition out of my head to give the transition a fair shake!

Thanks again, fletcher!

--------------------
Alexis -Cubase 6.5.0/SX3.1.1.944, XP SP2, 4GB RAM (1GB not accessible, but used just to balance the computer so it doesn't tip over); Delta 66 in Omni i/O Studio; Motif8; UAD-1

Depending on voicing and how you 'spell' the accidentals, Ab7 is also conceivable as an augmented 6th chord of Ab, and if you voice the chord Ab, C, Eb, F#(Gb) going up, you can move the top and bottom notes out to octaves of G and make a C major chord with G on the bass. In classical music this is known as a 'German 6th' but it's used generally in the sequence Ab6+, C/G, G (or G7) and resolving to C with C in the bass - a very strong and final ending.

You'll have noticed that Ab7 is only two notes different to D7 and they move in semitones, so it's quite a smooth progression, regardless of historical precedent. However, if it suits your scheme, you could try the German 6th sequence outlined above in the key of F by going Db6+, F (or Fm) with C in the bass, C or C7 then back to F or Fm. I quite like using F major on the way to finishing in F minor or vice versa (so you could go Db6+, F/C, C7, Fm and then you're back where you want to be). Is that any use to you? I have to say that although I learnt all this theory 40 years ago, I didn't pay much attention to it until I started composing again recently - suddenly all my harmony lessons started to come back to me.

Just out of interest, the German 6th arose in the Renaissance, was developed through the Baroque era and became a staple of the classical era. It was often used as the run in to a cadenza in concertos - you get the Augmented 6th chord, then the tonic chord (i.e. the key you're in) but with the fifth in the bass, which doesn't sound 'finished', at which point the soloist launches on the cadenza until the movement finishes with the actual dominant chord (i.e. G in the key of C) and whatever other stuff the composer puts in to end with a flourish. Nobody says you have to use it this way but I find it's nice to have at least some idea of where these things came from in the first place.

Hope that's not too much technical detail - you've got to do what sounds right for you when all's said and done.

Quote alexis:

---

1) The song chorus is in Fm, more or less (chords Fm, Bb, Ab, but with a C7 instead of a Cm).

---

I should just point out that the key of F minor would always have a C or C7 chord not a Cm. The dominant (chord V) is always major. You are perhaps confused because minor keys always require accidentals which are not in the key signature. Without these accidentals the piece is modal (what in modern-speak is called natural minor or Aolean).

--------------------
Daniel Davis
Edinburgh Recording Studio Windmill Sound

I'm with Tacitus. The D7 suggests G major, and then the Ab would function as a German sixth leading usually to a second inversion C7 and then on to the tonic. Very useful chord the flattened sixth. Crucial in flamenco.

You guys are awesome, I knew there was another universe out there of "real" music theory, I just had no idea how vast and detailed it was! Thank you for spending the time to think about this and help me understand what was going on a bit better!

I did try the G7 out of the D7 (directly, and indirectly via the Ab7) as a transition to C7 --> chorus in Fm (starting with the Fm chord). The G7 did transition nicely to a C chord, of course. But I felt the transition was so strong that it was hard to budge it off that C chord ... it didn't seem to want to transition further to my real endpoint, the chorus in the key of Fm (first chord of which is Fm). A C7 of course does do a better job of that transition, but it doesn't seem to follow from the G7 as well to my ear ...

So at this point, it looks like I'm stll favoring the D7 - Ab7 - C7 ... entry into the Fm key chorus, as "illegal" as it may be in terms of music theory. I am wondering though how much of that is due to having played it that way a thousand times ... if I were just working it out for the 1st time, would the G7 have sounded better to me? I'm not good enough to listen to the G7 with a fresh ear (and of course I can't remember at all if I did try it or not way back when I wrote the song, and maybe felt it wasn't quite what I was looking for)!!

I look forward to playing around with the "German 6th". I wasn't sure where the Db discussion came in though ... there's not actually a "key of F" in there anywhere ... I think I'm missing a few steps mentally there ...

Thanks again, everyone!

--------------------
Alexis -Cubase 6.5.0/SX3.1.1.944, XP SP2, 4GB RAM (1GB not accessible, but used just to balance the computer so it doesn't tip over); Delta 66 in Omni i/O Studio; Motif8; UAD-1

Hmm. You seem to be thinking of the G7 as a substitute for the Ab as a way of getting to the C7. But the bassline will suffer and maybe also the strength of the progression. If you drop the Ab for a G you'll probably end up with a dull bassline following the circle of fifths. (D7-G7-C7-F). In the original the bass would probably go to a G after the Ab (not to C) and then then onto the F. If it works in context to play an A under the D7 you then get a slinky bassline falling A-Ab-G-F, with the Ab pushing the line forward and no jump of a tritone from the D to the Ab. Of course, it all depends on the context, the style, the day of the week etc.

Quote petev3.1:

---

Hmm. You seem to be thinking of the G7 as a substitute for the Ab as a way of getting to the C7. But the bassline will suffer and maybe also the strength of the progression. If you drop the Ab for a G you'll probably end up with a dull bassline following the circle of fifths. (D7-G7-C7-F). In the original the bass would probably go to a G after the Ab (not to C) and then then onto the F. If it works in context to play an A under the D7 you then get a slinky bassline falling A-Ab-G-F, with the Ab pushing the line forward and no jump of a tritone from the D to the Ab. Of course, it all depends on the context, the style, the day of the week etc.

---

Sweet! Though at work, I can tell now!

Thanks

--------------------
Alexis -Cubase 6.5.0/SX3.1.1.944, XP SP2, 4GB RAM (1GB not accessible, but used just to balance the computer so it doesn't tip over); Delta 66 in Omni i/O Studio; Motif8; UAD-1

Alexis, the Db bit came in because I understand you want to get back to Fm ('song chorus is on Fm), and Db is where the German 6th occurs for the key of F minor OR major. So you go Db6+, then F or FM (with C root) then C7, then you're back to F or Fm. Hope that makes sense ...

Quote tacitus:

---

Alexis, the Db bit came in because I understand you want to get back to Fm ('song chorus is on Fm), and Db is where the German 6th occurs for the key of F minor OR major. So you go Db6+, then F or FM (with C root) then C7, then you're back to F or Fm. Hope that makes sense ...

---

OK, that does make sense, and sounds very interesting (here at my little desk!), thank you. I should have figured that out ...

Will play with it tonight. Maybe also a little "Bill... lleee ... Shears" action moving up from the Db, through an Eb in this case, to the Fm (wonder if that will work as well as it does if it went to F ... we shall see!).

Thank you!

--------------------
Alexis -Cubase 6.5.0/SX3.1.1.944, XP SP2, 4GB RAM (1GB not accessible, but used just to balance the computer so it doesn't tip over); Delta 66 in Omni i/O Studio; Motif8; UAD-1

Quote tacitus:

---

Alexis, the Db bit came in because I understand you want to get back to Fm ('song chorus is on Fm), and Db is where the German 6th occurs for the key of F minor OR major. So you go Db6+, then F or FM (with C root) then C7, then you're back to F or Fm. Hope that makes sense ...

---

In case you're confused, Alex, calling that Ab a German sixth might be misleading. However, in your original progression it does seems to function as one (suggesting the key of the C) before leading back to the F. But in the key of F the flattened sixth would be Db as Tacitus says.

Maybe you could see it as a passing chord, e.g in the progression Am7-Ab7-G7-C7-F, and it is very common and ordinary in this context. The Ab only becomes a bit of a surprise when you jump to it from somewhere other than the Am. Most of these off beat chords start out as passing chords or collections of passing notes.

Edited by petev3.1 (25/04/12 11:43 AM)