Hi, I've got a pile of DAT tapes that I need to transfer before they become 100% obsolete and unsupported. I have a Sony PCM-R300 DAT player, and with my current set-up, one possibility is just playing the headphone output through the line-in on a digital recorder. However, I'd like to make it a digital transfer to preserve as much of the original recording as possible. The DAT player has digital coaxial and optical outputs. What would be the easiest way for me to transfer the recordings, to either a digital audio recorder or my computer (ideally my Mac)? Is a USB sound card the way to go?

Thanks in advance for any help!!

What Mac do you have ?

Most have a optical digital in, on a hybrid connector that also does analog line in.

If you do end up going analogue, use the line out, not the headphone socket. But as Chris says, any recent Mac will have a digital input which use the same socket as the analogue line input. My iMac's about 5 years old and wasn't the first to have this, so if your Mac doesn't, it's probably time to upgrade it ...

If it turns out you don't have this facility on your Mac and you need to get an interface, look for something with SPDIF inputs on it - obviously it can be Co-ax or optical - so you are sure to go digital. I can't think any interface with this will be unable to give you what you want, but maybe somebody with wider knowledge might see a snag somewhere.

If you do have the combi socket on the Mac, with it being 3.5mm format, you need an SPDIF to 3.5mm optical lead - I got my latest from Amazon for a few quid. This is not any sort of digital to analogue conversion; the socket on the Mac works both as analogue (by the contacts touching the side of the plug you insert) or as digital, in which case the optical signal shines straight out of the end of the plug. Cunning, huh? Works like a charm.

And yes, you do want to get your stuff copied over. I understand there aren't enough working DAT mechanisms left in the world to play back all the existing DAT tapes even once. Hugh will know all about this (he knows everything, and this is exactly the sort of fact that proves it!). So some people are eventually going to find they have heaps of DAT tapes which may have something good on them but they'll never find out.

Quote tacitus:

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And yes, you do want to get your stuff copied over. I understand there aren't enough working DAT mechanisms left in the world to play back all the existing DAT tapes even once.

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Still many, many DDS drives around so no need to perpetuate this myth!

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I'm All Ears.

Quote shams:

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Hi, I've got a pile of DAT tapes that I need to transfer before they become 100% obsolete and unsupported. I have a Sony PCM-R300 DAT player, and with my current set-up, one possibility is just playing the headphone output through the line-in on a digital recorder. However, I'd like to make it a digital transfer to preserve as much of the original recording as possible. The DAT player has digital coaxial and optical outputs. What would be the easiest way for me to transfer the recordings, to either a digital audio recorder or my computer (ideally my Mac)? Is a USB sound card the way to go?

Thanks in advance for any help!!

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Digital inputs are not uncommon on computers - after all, they're simpler to arrange than analogue ones, no a/d conversion required :-) Are you sure you haven't got one already?

Quote chris...:

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What Mac do you have ?

Most have a optical digital in, on a hybrid connector that also does analog line in.

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Following up my earlier post - this is the connector needed to access the optical input on most Macs in recent years:

http://www.maplin.co.uk/toslink-to-mini-toslinkconverter-29296

Quote ken long:

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Still many, many DDS drives around so no need to perpetuate this myth!

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Good point.

However, what software does one use to make a DDS (computer backup) drive read an audio DAT ?

ISTR in the mid-1990s there was something that did this on an SGI.

But now ?

Ta

Quote chris...:

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Quote ken long:

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Still many, many DDS drives around so no need to perpetuate this myth!

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Good point.

However, what software does one use to make a DDS (computer backup) drive read an audio DAT ?

ISTR in the mid-1990s there was something that did this on an SGI.

But now ?

Ta

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VDAT works fine in XP. Including error logs.

Here you go some more info - last update 2010 so hardly mid 90s . http://www.zianet.com/jgray/dat/ and http://heemsker.home.xs4all.nl/fup/

Edited by ken long (02/04/12 08:54 AM)

Thanks - I may well end up needing that.

Cheers

I had no idea MacBooks had optical in! That makes everything so much easier – thanks everyone for your help!

So to follow up on this, I've run into a bit of a problem:
I have the optical cable now to connect the DAT player to the MacBook, but I can't get a signal. Same problem when I hook it up to the line in on my Sony PCM-D50 recorder, which also has optical in. After reading around, I'm starting to think the problem is that the tapes were recorded on long play and thus at a lower rate that's not supported by the MacBook or the recorder (both of which have floors of 44.1 kHz).
I'm trying to get non long play recorded DAT tapes to test this with, but in the meantime I guess my questions are first, does this make sense, and second, if the rate is the problem, is there any way to get around this? Is getting a digital signal possible on long play DATs?
Thanks again, everyone has been so helpful.

Interesting. So you have two machines at hand? Do the supposedly long play tapes play at all on the machines? I mean via analog out? I know you're looking to do a dig xfer, I'm just spitballing. Usually dat machines have displays that show the recorded rate.

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Gear list: If you can't find it, grind it

Don't know DAT at all but can't you do a few minutes recording at normal speed as a test?

And why would DAT not output standard S/PDIF (if I have understood this correctly)? Both my Philips digital audio cassette and my two Sony Minidiscs do. Talk to my 2496's or Fast track pro/KA6 just fine!

Dave.

Edited by ef37a (26/04/12 07:55 AM)

Is it just your software that doesn't support 32kHz or the hardware itself? If it is the hardware, you will need to find an interface that supports 32kHz - not sure how common this feature is but I'm fairly sure that my RME card will do it.

James.

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JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

Quote James Perrett:

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Is it just your software that doesn't support 32kHz or the hardware itself? If it is the hardware, you will need to find an interface that supports 32kHz - not sure how common this feature is but I'm fairly sure that my RME card will do it.

James.

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Aha! Well the venerable 2496 will run at 32k as will the Fast track pro I am pretty sure (says it supports SR's up to 96kHz).

If the software is the problem download the 30 day demo of Cubase LE6.

Dave.

Quote shams:

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I have the optical cable now to connect the DAT player to the MacBook, but I can't get a signal. Same problem when I hook it up to the line in on my Sony PCM-D50 recorder, which also has optical in. After reading around, I'm starting to think the problem is that the tapes were recorded on long play and thus at a lower rate that's not supported by the MacBook or the recorder (both of which have floors of 44.1 kHz).

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The long-play mode on DAT machines uses a 32kHz sample rate with 12-bit non-linear encoding and a frequency response that extended to about 14.5kHz.

The issue may well be to do with the 32kHz sample rate being incompatible with your Mac, but I wonder also if the machine can output S/PDIF in this format at all because of the need to transcode between 12-bit non-linear and the 16 bit linear format required by everything else.

Edited to add: The other possibility is that the recording has been flagged as copyrighted and the SCMS system is preventing anything else from recording the data digitally.

Given the inherently limited quality of the source recordings in long-play mode, I would suggest that taking the analogue outputs (most DAT machines can replay long-play DATs even if they can't record them) and re-recording through a normal computer interface via the analogue domain might be the most pragmatic way forward.

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Again. I am DAT stupid but both the aforementioned Sony MD and Philips DAC used "mucked about" coding systems and yet both output a normal digital signal (one is co-ax and one optical but a five quid converter works fine)

The mindisc machine even has a mono, lp mode and although I have not tried it I can see no reson why that should not feed standard S/PDIF out? It is after all a SONY/PHILPS connection protocol!

But I agree Hugh. Little or nothing should be lost going from the analogue line outs. In anycase, for all we know they might just take the line out and S/PDIF it!

Dave.

Quote ef37a:

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...Sony MD and Philips DAC used "mucked about" coding systems and yet both output a normal digital signal ...

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I think you mean Philips DCC, but yes, quote so. It is obviously possible to transcode between a non-linearly quantised or a data-reduced format to a linear one, and in the case of MD and DCC it was a pre-requisite of the system.

The long-play mode in the DAT format was an option (mode III) that not all machines supported, and some only supported replay but not record. To be honest, it's not a mode I ever used and so I have no first hand experience of whether typical machines would or could output S/PDIF for long-play tapes or not. I was just raising it as a possible issue that might warrant further investigation.

S/PDIF can certainly handle the 32kHz sample rate.

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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I wonder also if the machine can output S/PDIF in this format at all because of the need to transcode between 12-bit non-linear and the 16 bit linear format required by everything else.

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Transferring a load of long-play DATs awaits me...

Assuming my computer interface and software can handle 32kHz sample rate, then *if* the DAT machine outputs anything at all on the S/PDIF port, *then* it should be 16 bit linear format, right ?

ie. so I hopefully won't have to worry about somehow converting from the 12-bit non-linear format myself, in the computer ?

Yes, if it sends data down the S/PDIF pipe, it will be formated as linearly quantised audio.

I've had a rummage around a few Sony DAT manuals and can't find anything to suggest that long play tapes won't output valid S/PDIF, so I presume it works as you would expect, with a 32kHz sample rate.

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

The last time I had to do this (about 1998?) it was a Tascam DA20 mark 2 feeding S/Pdif to a Korg 1212 PCI card. The card locked to the 32kHz rate and I recorded as 16 bit in Cubase VST, sounded fine considering the limitations of DAT LP mode.

So I think the earlier problem was because the Mac does not support 32kHz. Most audio interfaces do though.

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madtheory creations
Synths and pianos for Kontakt

Thanks Tomas -- that's reassuring to know.

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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Yes, if it sends data down the S/PDIF pipe, it will be formated as linearly quantised audio.

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Thanks chaps - will give it a whirl and report back. I too have a Tascam DA-20mk2.

The real fun may be DAT tapes that are partly long-play, and partly standard-play. Have a feeling analog may be the way to go for those...

Quote chris...:

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The real fun may be DAT tapes that are partly long-play, and partly standard-play. Have a feeling analog may be the way to go for those...

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multiple config DATs with different SRs shouldn't be a problem via S/PDIF. Obviously, you will need to record however many passes you need. Analogue out won't be a big loss but if yyou can do it right, why not?

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I'm All Ears.

Quote ken long:

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multiple config DATs with different SRs shouldn't be a problem via S/PDIF.

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I guess I'd need to (Plan A) set the computer for 32kHz, and transfer that part of the tape. Then stop, set the computer for 44.1kHz, and then transfer the next part of the tape etc.

I'm thinking I'll find it easier to let the DAT run from start to end, and then do all the editing on the computer afterwards.

Are you suggesting I (Plan B) transfer the whole tape at 32k, and on the computer, locate and cut out the bits that are really 32k. Then transfer the whole tape again at 44k and on the computer [...]. I guess that might just work, if use a lot of DAT-head hours.

That won't work, the sample rate via the S/PDIF will keep changing nad the computer will either keep stopping or flag files with the wrong sample rate.

If the tapes really are of mixed format, then going analogue is the sensible approach -- the universal sample rate converter -- as everything will end up with the same sample rate in the one project. Much easier to deal with, and the quality loss will be negligible via any decent modern A-D converter which will be an order of magnitude better than those of the original DAT, or the DAT's D-A.

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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That won't work, the sample rate via the S/PDIF will keep changing nad the computer will either keep stopping or flag files with the wrong sample rate.

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Right. Makes sense.

I guess I'm keen on digital transfer to avoid the hassle of setting analog input levels. Could record at 24bit, but that seems wasteful of space, given the task in hand. So more likely I'll record at 16bit, and set the level carefully. (Tho' I guess I could record at 24bit, normalise, then dither down to 16bit, without noticeably affecting things).

Try to not laugh much, but the only A/D converter I currently have to hand is Yamaha 01V mixer from 1998 (going ADAT to computer). Not the latest+greatest converters, but will probably do.

Edit - also have a little Sony PCM-M10 flash recorder with line-in, which is 10 years newer than the DAT, so might just have better converters.

Surely this is no different from importing a mixture of 44.1kH and 48kHz files?

I am fairly sure I could do this in Samplitude then SAVE everything at 44.1kHz.

My son regulary records things from BBC R3 on the web in realtime and saves it as a 44.1kHz 16bit.wav which it assuredly is not originally! Same goes for Youtube sound.

But then I have probably got it all wrong!

Dave.

Quote chris...:

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I guess I'm keen on digital transfer to avoid the hassle of setting analog input levels.

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But it couldn't be easier! The absolute peak level is a known quantity, and any modern A-D will have more headroom capability than you could ever want while still having a lower noise floor than the DAT machine's D-A. So all you have to do is find the loudest bit on tape, set the record level of your interface to make that peak to a comfortable level -- say peaks to -4dBFS or so, and let it get on with it!

Quote:

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Could record at 24bit, but that seems wasteful of space

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Totally trivial and irrelevant concern with typical hdd sizes today. I'd record 24 bit with headroom. Tweak the material as you want, and then bounce to 16 bit if you feel the need, having removed the surplus headroom.

Quote:

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Edit - also have a little Sony PCM-M10 flash recorder with line-in, which is 10 years newer than the DAT, so might just have better converters.

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Probably so, yes. The O1V's converters weren't its greatest strength.... but even so, I reckon you'd be hard pressed to hear any significant deficiencies compared to the 12-bit non-linear long play DAT mode.

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Not when the DAT device is acting as the master clock, Dave - which is the only way to digitally migrate the data.

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I'm All Ears.

Quote ef37a:

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My son regulary records things from BBC R3 on the web in realtime and saves it as a 44.1kHz 16bit.wav which it assuredly is not originally!

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Most DAWs will automatically sample rate convert files of one sample rate when dropped into a project of a different sample rate. And files can be saved to a different sample rate by passing through an SRC, which is an automatic bounce process in many DAWs.

Usually, though, the interface is told what sample rate to run at by the DAW project... But the interface also has to synchronise itself to the incoming clock rate if recording a digital source.

Some interfaces have SRCs on the digital inputs to deal with such incompatibilities, but most don't. So it comes down to a specific setup and whether the project rate is always the master, in which case who knows what will happen, or whether the project sample rate is forced to change on the fly to follow the input rate (in which case which bit of the project is at the right rate?)!

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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Quote ef37a:

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My son regulary records things from BBC R3 on the web in realtime and saves it as a 44.1kHz 16bit.wav which it assuredly is not originally!

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Most DAWs will automatically sample rate convert files of one sample rate when dropped into a project of a different sample rate. And files can be saved to a different sample rate by passing through an SRC, which is an automatic bounce process in many DAWs.

Usually, though, the interface is told what sample rate to run at by the DAW project... But the interface also has to synchronise itself to the incoming clock rate if recording a digital source.

Some interfaces have SRCs on the digital inputs to deal with such incompatibilities, but most don't. So it comes down to a specific setup and whether the project rate is always the master, in which case who knows what will happen, or whether the project sample rate is forced to change on the fly to follow the input rate (in which case which bit of the project is at the right rate?)!

hugh

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Err? Right! Well it sounds ok. When he is done "analysing"it all gets squashed down to MP3 for archiving.

Dave.

I recently had a couple of tapes with 44.1kHz and 48kHz on the same tape. I was unable to seek out the recordist and smack him for such a mortal sin.

I used a borrowed Tascam DAP-2 (?) sending S/Pdif to M Audio FW1814 into Pro Tools. The M Audio would make a horrible buzzing noise when the SR changed. So I would simply stop recording, and load up a new Pro Tools session at the rate displayed on the Tascam. I edited out the nasty buzz afterwards.

Doing it this way bypasses all converters which as Hugh points out doesn't make much difference. There is a slight difference though! In this case it was worth it. Or at least, it kept me happy! But if I had a lot of long tapes at mixed SR, I would use an audio interface with built in SRC, such as the Pro Tools HD192. Life's too short to monitor such long transfers!

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madtheory creations
Synths and pianos for Kontakt

Quote Tomás Mulcahy:

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I recently had a couple of tapes with 44.1kHz and 48kHz on the same tape. I was unable to seek out the recordist and smack him for such a mortal sin.

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I had something similar this week - probably recorded in different studios. I simply put the different sample rates on different tracks in Reaper. Reaper allows the soundcard sample rate to override the session sample rate and it automatically converts the sample rate on the fly if the file sample rate is wrong.

I'll finally render everything together and make sure that I use the highest quality sample rate conversion setting (which Reaper says in non real time but it goes at 8X on my machine).

James.

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JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

Another example of why Reaper is far ahead of Pro Tools!

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madtheory creations
Synths and pianos for Kontakt