Hi My name is Freddie I'm a student at London Met, and I'm New to Forums but I was hoping to get some views and opinions from anybody that uses and is familiar to Logic. I am writing an essay for uni at the moment on usability of a specific DAW and was hoping to get some opinion's on how they feel about the usability of Logic 8/9 for example if there is any perticular element that is really handy or frustrating that effects the way you use it on a daily basis. None of it has to be fact it because the part of essay where i will use this will be purly based in peoples opinion, Thanks.

"None of it has to be fact it because the part of essay where i will use this will be purly based in peoples opinion"

What does this mean exactly?

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Sorry i didn't write this that clearly all i meant was that i was just more interested in peoples opinions on whatever makes the software clear and easy to use or not in their eyes. Like in your opinion that when first using Logic is there any part of any process that you thought was complicated that is made easier or something simple made too complicated. Or if you have been using it for ages and there is something that makes the tasks longer or overly complicated or maybe that you choose Logic because it makes them more simple in terms of usability, that maybe another DAW has done better or worse with out getting to much into a comparison between every DAW available.

To be honest, all DAWs can do pretty much the same, each has quirks of it's own, and probably there are elements that some do better than others. But overall I've been using logic long enough that my workflow has just accommodated any idiosyncrasies, so I just don't have to think about it.

It was the same when I primarily used Cubase, I'm sure it would be the same if I used Protools or whatever.

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New album 'Fantasy Bridge' available now!
Making of Fantasy Bridge Diary

There was a great deal of buzz around Logic a couple or more years ago and people were bringing Logic into the studio, in favour of ProTools.

With the launch of PT Native and HD-X, customers are returning to PT in a big way, not least because of the latency problem and the fact that PT integrates with hardware far better.

The other big trend is the take-up of Reaper by amateurs and professionals alike. The adult versions of PT does not work on a laptop and Reaper's editing functions are just without rival, so we are seeing tracking on Radar or PT and editing on Reaper or PT. Mixing is more and more ITB, simply because low grade stuff (stems and demos) can be done in the office or living room, but anything critical is done in the studio and on a desk, though that can be digital, hybrid, or analogue.

Logic is much loved by composers with home studio, as they need it for its MIDI functions.

As an audio editing tool, Logic is very, very frustratingly bad.

As a MIDI controller, it is very good for its features but not as tight as say, DP or PT (which don't have nearly as many MIDI features).

Logic has a good entry level selection of plugins and a wide pallet of sounds as standard and composing and arranging within the DAW is by far the best out there though I have not used PT MIDI since 6.9 so can't comment on newer versions.

As a post production tool, it just isn't good enough. PT still has spot mode which is absolutely vital for EDLs.

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I'm All Ears.

Yeah, I wouldn't use Logic for Audio editing, however, I much prefer Logic's mixer functionality to other DAWs, and as I basically do a mixture of midi/software instrument and live recorded audio almost purely for personal use, I haven't needed to look into anything else. The audio I do record I take special care to record in the best possible way, and so I don't need to "repair" stuff at the mixing stage - and I stress this is mainly personal recording, not commercial. If I did I'd probably start looking at other DAWs. Also logic does come bundled with an incredible amount of samples and sounds, so it's an attractive option in that respect.

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www.exaviormusic.com
www.manninmusic.com Music Teacher, Isle of Man

The way it loses connection with the audio interface if you leave it on for a few hours is irritating

Quote tipex:

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The way it loses connection with the audio interface if you leave it on for a few hours is irritating

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That's a hardware issue, No issues for me using firewire, USB sometimes gets flakey.





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G-Dub
Studio G-fx 15inch quad-core i7 Macbook Pro Logic913

Quote tipex:

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The way it loses connection with the audio interface if you leave it on for a few hours is irritating

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Yeah, I can't say that's something I've ever come across either.

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New album 'Fantasy Bridge' available now!
Making of Fantasy Bridge Diary

Quote tipex:

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The way it loses connection with the audio interface if you leave it on for a few hours is irritating

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Most likely driver or hardware issues. Nothing to do with Logic.

Quote tipex:

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The way it loses connection with the audio interface if you leave it on for a few hours is irritating

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Never had this problem....
& in reply to the thread i have always used logic, i do have some other DAWs (Protools 8 SE & Studio One) but for me nothing compares to the workflow of logic. i remember recording a group last year and they could not believe how fast I could work.

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Logic 9, Studio One 2, Protools 8 LE

This is interesting to me, as most of my film sound students never think critically about the software they use, they either love it or hate it, and tend to stick with what they know. I believe that when possible, it is best to know the capabilities of several platforms. THIS is how problems actually get solved, in my opinion.

I've used Logic for about 7 years, and also Pro Tools for about 10 and Ableton Live for about 9, Sibelius for 10, Adobe Audition for 2 and Soundtrack Pro for 6, each of which I've used professionally and taught others how to use as part of various courses at the university where I teach in the Film Dept. Also, I've had brief forays into Ardour, Cubase and, a long time ago, Fruity Loops. Not to mention MAX/MSP and Isadora...

Of course they are all similar yet with their own idiosyncrasies, but each also have their own strengths. Logic is far and away better for linear composing than the others I've used, although Cubase had it's merits. PT is better for music editing, although I prefer Audition for detailed audio editing, and Live and MAX/MSP are better for both performing and for experimental exploration. And Isadora is best for multi-media performance.

But what is more interesting, to me, is how well each DAW fares in its weaker areas. I have had no problem running recording sessions with Logic, and only minimal frustration using it for editing, especially as Logic has, along with LIve, the ability to easily send audio to another external editing program. Logic has "traditionally" used Soundtrack Pro as an external editor, but these days I use Audition, which is similar is some ways but more powerful. I really like that I can do this, whereas Pro Tools won't let you leave until you are done, or by exporting an OMF, assuming to be able to do it all. Except that it can't as it has no spectral editing capabilities, which are very powerful, and have been the most useful part of both Soundtrack Pro and Audition as adjuncts to Logic.

So using Logic can easily mean also using a secondary editor, as Logic's own Sample Editor is really quite limited. This way, it seems that Logic has a built-in workaround for its built-in limitations.

I do appreciate that the link between Sibelius and Pro Tools could be very useful, but in my experience, I like using Sibelius to make actual scores for my musicians based on what I've composed in Logic, and then I record i them using Logic. The workflow suggested by Avid is rather the inverse, where one should compose with Sibelius first. This I've done, and I appreciate that Sibelius does a much better job than Logic at interpreting MIDI meanings in a score, but I still find it slower to actually get my ideas down to picture than using Logic first. But this may be based on my experience.

The inverse, say trying to compose or arrange a film score in Pro Tools... well, there are probably some people who do this, but in my experience, this is rather frustrating, and although PT is very often used to deliver film scores, it is not what me or anyone I know actually uses for composing.

So to recap, I believe that Logic does what it does its worst better than what most other DAWs do poorly at, yet it's limitations are rather manageable, and it can usually "play well with others." Of course there are some frustrating things, and the program can seem needlessly complex when trying to do simple things (like using the Environment to create an arpeggiator) but the complexity can be worth it when trying to do advanced functions. The limitations of most other DAWs mean just not using them for specific kinds of work, although they may be superior to Logic for certain things.

can i put me ha-peth in

( my dad used to use the word 'ha-peth' in everyday conversation - I've always wanted to use that word....for the non northerners it means half-penny!!(i've spelt it phonetically - i don't know if it's spelt right!!)

I like logic's mixer and buss architecture....it looks and feels like an "old skool" real mixer and works a lot like one

I also like the way you can easily send audio to any audio interface out dead easy...the flow is very good

It's midi implementation - for recording into from various midi sources - is crap...apparently a legacy thing that bottlenecks midi to 16 channels - there's no "cubase like" selecting an input midi device (like usb 1 hub) and just controlling the synth you want with the controller you want without some immense faffing around with selecting channels on your midi input device and teling logic which one to use and etc etc - it's a stupid DAW for midi controller usage

the environment is a weird place - I'm a musician (actually a drummer - so that's an arguable point!) - NOT A BLOODY PROGRAMMER!

I like it costs £139....thats good value

It's latency recording implementation is flaky

It runs on a mac very well - I don't have to use a PC (or more specifically windoze)

I use it like a tape recorder - we get on very well like that

automation is fairly easy and straight-forward...that's a good thing

the stock plugins are easy and quite good - the stock synths are a pain to programme

i use it coupled with Reason if i want to multi-use midi input devices...which does this much better

Logic is a comfortable recording device

I like it's tape delay...i don't really like space designer...reverb isn't logic's strong point!

I've recorded hours without a crash in a live gig - this is very very good...stable system and stable recording product!....

all in all - i enjoy recording with it cause it's easy



although latency compensation is a bit of an issue!

btw - did i mention the price?? it's a steal really - only matched by Reaper in the costs stakes

the eq is functional and useful....and dead easy to use

it's easy to teach someone to use in a basic fashion - which is important to me at work.

that's it really!




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http://soundcloud.com/seaapes

Jut to be clear, ALL midi is legacy, at nearly 30 years old, and 16 channels PER INSTANCE is part of the midi protocol, and not specific to Logic whatsoever. And you can totally select the midi input per track, it's just that it's on the track Inspector, not the mixer. I use about 10 different midi sources... hope this helps you out!

ahh yes - i know you can do it - it's just not as easy as it is in cubase!!(to me anyway)



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http://soundcloud.com/seaapes

Quote Lukas Pearse:

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Jut to be clear, ALL midi is legacy, at nearly 30 years old, and 16 channels PER INSTANCE is part of the midi protocol, and not specific to Logic whatsoever. And you can totally select the midi input per track, it's just that it's on the track Inspector, not the mixer. I use about 10 different midi sources... hope this helps you out!

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I'm not sure you understand to what the Wease is referring... he is quite correct.

Of course you can use multiple different MIDI sources. However, you cannot *directly* (although you can indirectly with some environment hacking) use more than 16 individual incoming MIDI channels at once, regardless of what MIDI port they are coming in from, as all MIDI ports are merged into one 16-channel stream before the data hits the sequencer part of Logic - meaning there is no way to differentiate a MIDI channel 2 event coming in from Port A, from a MIDI channel 2 event coming in from a totally different MIDI port B.

Quote Lukas Pearse:

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And you can totally select the midi input per track, it's just that it's on the track Inspector, not the mixer.

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No, on a software instrument track you can select one of the 16 incoming *MIDI channels* to listen to, *not* the port. There is no port setting. As I described above, the port information is lost when all the ports' data is merged pre-sequencer.

And on regular environment MIDI instruments, the port and channel are the "output" from the instrument object, not the input source.

You can only address the individual MIDI input ports individually by hijacking the streams in the environment before they get merged, and doing something with them. However, this is less than ideal in many circumstances, because if you want to record, sooner or later that stream has to go to the "Sequencer Thru" object, at which point the port data is lost (as MIDI does not have a concept of "MIDI port" - a MIDI stream is by definition one ports data of up to 16 channels (and some other stuff).

The 16-channel input bottleneck is a well-known long-standing "feature" of Logic, which may or may not be an issue to a given individual depending on how they use the program.

Yes, you are right, both that I misunderstood the question, and that yes, it does take some Environment wrangling to establish different ports as opposed to channels. And also right that this is not one of Logic's strong points, the port business requiring the tedious Environment to make right.

BUT, in Logic's defense, at least there is a workaround...

Many other DAWs have harder limits, in my experience.

I use Logic as my only current sequencer. I think it is great. I'm sure other DAWs have caught up, but switching from PT LE and Cubase SX to Logic 8 the first thing I notice was the comprehensive built-in sound sources (loops, samples and instruments) and the included FX bundle, especially space designer, delay designer and now amp designer.

Small things that frustrate me. the arpeggiator. This is so complicated (for me anyway!) I tend to find it is easier just to manually write in the MIDI data.

Fades across multiple audio tracks. This may be where someone chirps in and tells me how to do it but I have never found out how to do a single fade edit across 2 audio regions. For example, if I have recorded a stereo pair on to 2 mono tracks and want to get the fades spot on the same for both, I can't seem to do it.

...just my ha-peth..

I switched from Cubase to Logic 8 about four years ago. I love it now, but it took me about 18 months to get familiar with it, and I'm still learning stuff now. I agree with others about the audio editor, it's very rudimentary and also it can be a real pain getting it to open the file you've selected in the arrange window - it prefers to open the last file you opened.

I love the automation. I like the built in FX too, which is just as well as I can't afford to buy 3rd party FX and AU freeware is not plentiful. I'm not crazy about the delays - they seem to want to box you in with their push-button note lengths. And the Delay Designer is fun but does not automate well.

I'm not quite so keen on the instruments, though they are all certainly useable. The ES2 could be a great synth if the oscillators weren't so, er, what's the word? Yucky. A pity as it's great fun to programme, which brings me to another point: the manuals are very comprehensive but also readable and useful. The modelling synth is great, but only does half a job, as does the FM synth.

As for the Environment - never use it, except I tried a few tricks from the Logic Pro Help pages. Might be fun to get into if I ever have the time, but I expect that would have to be a lorra lorra time.

That's my ha'peth.

It's interesting, I've spent many many years interacting with Logic users, both new and experienced, and many similar things keep cropping up.

A lot of the time, people aren't spending the time to understand some of the key concepts, thus find some simple things hard to do. I think this is partly because the nature of using deep, complex software these days is just to dive in, start using it, and figure things out as you go along. This can work great for some people, but often means you skim the surface without understanding *why* it works that way, and why it's been designed to do so.

For instance, in my experience not many people understand how "tracks", "track objects", "channel strips", "audio objects" and "environment objects" relate to each other, and how they differ to other programs, and what that let's you do that you can't do elsewhere, and how do it. And yet that's one fundamental design aspect in Logic. And there are quite a few of these things.

Part of this is that Logic was designed first and foremost as a sequencer, and thus uses MIDI concepts at it's heart for many of it's workings. At the time it was designed, this was fine, because everyone using a MIDI sequencer had a decent grasp of MIDI. Nowadays, particularly for new users, "MIDI" is a kind of fuzzy, hidden concept. A lot of new Logic users are running the software, plugging in a USB keyboard, and going - and thus, not having a conceptual understanding of MIDI means they find concepts such as patching together MIDI instruments, once so fundamental, is now kinda odd and complex...

The arpeggiator object, and the environment in general, is a good example of this. Once someone explains the concepts, most people get it and go "Oh, it's actually quite straightforward", but without that, you just seen this whole mess of cabling icons to other icons without really understanding the what's, why's and wherefore's...

I do recommend reading the manual, or if you can watching someone who's really good and fast and experienced using Logic, going through the key commands window and checking the functionality there, and picking chapters in the manual and reading one from time to time exhaustively, actually trying out "all" the features described ("Ok, today let's do the Piano Roll chapter..." etc).

Video training can be fine but is mostly geared towards the biggest market for it - new users wanting to get an overview and up to speed quickly - this they rarely go into much of the good stuff - how people work, good workflow habits and tools and ninja experience of setting up your personalised working environment for you...

Logic has many strengths, and it's fair share of weaknesses, like, well most complex software. For me, it's the one that least "gets in the way" of my process. I don't want billions of buttons and blinking lights onscreen, multiple open windows to juggle and having to continually open and close other windows to do tasks that should be invisible. I want the least visual clutter, and the most power under my fingertips to get the task done efficiently, and I need the power tools to be there and work for me when I need them, and the ability to set them up for my exact needs. Logic does this best for me, though I do also love Ableton Live as a completely different and complementary workflow to Logic. Reaper also has some nice aspects to it.

No tool is going to work for everybody, and everybody's art and workflow is a little bit different. However, I do like that Logic is one of the more adaptable tools for different workflows, whereas I find other DAWs have a much more rigid approach to how it should be done - which is great for some people, a hindrance to others.

At least with Logic, if I need to do something, it can probably be done.

Logic's weakest areas, for me, are controller handling (excluding Mackie Control surface support, which is pretty good), more exotic audio editing and the sample editor, many of the older, legacy parts of the program, limitations and age of many areas of the environment, bugs (things that broke a long time ago and have never been fixed) and often under-developed features.

However, it would take a helluva lot to make me switch, because largely most other tools have a broadly similar feature set and workflow, in general terms, if not all the specifics - so it's a lot of effort to gain not much in return...

So, twenty+ years on, I'm still using the Creator->Notator->Notator Logic->Logic software line, and that's a lot of years, and a very fast-moving era to be using one tool for that amount of time...

My version is 8.02 ... I like:

The trad mixer approach when mixing; the bussing, the sends, the desk-like look.
Automation, both plain loudness and the plugins.
The plugins; though not the legacy ones. My faves are the channel & linear phase EQ, the compressors and delays.
Recording audio works great.
The price is very good.
I have no problems with the audio editing, in fact I like it ... but then I don't know the competition!
Waveburner is (now!) a rather good little CD compiling/mastering app bundled with Logic

Things I don't like:

All those windows.
Sometimes I have to launch a few times before it believes I am registered!
All those things I never bothered to learn like instruments, midi, wiring etc. But then I mainly use it as a recording/mixing medium.

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PA stuff on FB

I like this thread.....it's nice to see everyone's views

I think we can say that for most people, the fact it looks and feels like a traditional mixer and recorder is it's greatest plus point....the concepts are what most of us (who are over 30) are used too....so there is very little 'new' to get used too. Also Logic's mixer "logically" makes new busses when you want them and routing is very easy

I do understand Desmond'd point that most of us "lower" people look at something like the environment and go.....well, I'll leave that well alone.....most probably to our eternal and righteous damnation....I "Should" learn more about it, but to be honest, I'd rather be mixing and recording than reading a manual and learning!

Also - Rewire works so well, and Ableton live and Reason kinda cover anything we'd "really" want to do in the environment that's "out of the Ordinary" that we don't really bother - and it's only until we become really stuck and/or annoyed that we look again into the environment.....then go - "i wonder if I could just re-tweek that bass drum, and leave the environment well alone!"

I also think the way logic implements 3rd party plugin's is very smart and efficient...

It does seem odd to me that the Mixer works so well, and "hides" the environment muggins it obviously does behind the scenes, and yet the midi implementation doesn't....oh well - nothing can be perfect!!

it's still provided me with a much greater platform than Cubase SX ever did....so big up to logic for that!



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http://soundcloud.com/seaapes

To use Logic or any other DAW as a professionnal requires that you have an in depth knowledge of the software. There's only one way to get the knowledge: hard work. If you can teach Logic, than you've done the hard work.

I think that occasionnal users, like me, dream of being able to do what a pro can do without going through all the stages, steps, hours of reading, trial and errors. So you keep dreaming and thinking that everythings seems to be easier with other daws like PT, Reason and all the others. So you buy them burt realise in the end that you're back to the beginning!

Complex tools needs to be learned and learning is not always funny and it takes time!

I coulld have all the tools, all the ressouces, all the training videos but all that is useless if I don't take the time to learn !

Everything's easy and fast, once you know how it works.

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intel iMac 20"/10.6.7, 2 GB ram, Logic Pro 9.1.5, Pro Tools 8.5, PropellerHead Record, Mbox2 PRO