(Sorry if wrong subforum, mods please feel free to move if so)

I don't record to a click track, so I'm never exactly on the beat. But the MIDI>VSTi timing thread on the Cubase forums has got me thinking and there's something I can't quite figure out...

If you have a performer/band recording to a click track coming from a DAW - won't, at best, every note be played one buffer later?

And if that's true, do you all automatically slide everything earlier in time one buffer before starting to work on mixing, etc.?

Or, is the difference of one buffer just swallowed up and unnoticeable when compared to the natural timing of even the best "metronomic" musicians?

Thanks much!

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Alexis -Cubase 6.5.0/SX3.1.1.944, XP SP2, 4GB RAM (1GB not accessible, but used just to balance the computer so it doesn't tip over); Delta 66 in Omni i/O Studio; Motif8; UAD-1

The performers will often anticipate the click so they may well be early - especially if you have a drummer who speeds up through the song.

James.

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JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

Nick Mason was once asked about one of his latest vintage car purchases, a lovely old green Bentley with leather straps across the hood.

"So, what's it like to drive?"

"It's like my drumming! It speeds up as I go along!"

Quote James Perrett:

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The performers will often anticipate the click so they may well be early - especially if you have a drummer who speeds up through the song.

James.

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That's interesting, I tried to play to a click yesterday, and found fairly consistently that I was about 15-20msec early (or at least the MIDI and audio were placed there, who knows when I actually hit the keys). I couldn't figure out why, thought maybe I just didn't know how to play ...

Am I understanding correctly then that there is mucho sliding of tracks back and forth even for click track recordings?

Thanks!

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Alexis -Cubase 6.5.0/SX3.1.1.944, XP SP2, 4GB RAM (1GB not accessible, but used just to balance the computer so it doesn't tip over); Delta 66 in Omni i/O Studio; Motif8; UAD-1

Quote alexis:

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Am I understanding correctly then that there is mucho sliding of tracks back and forth even for click track recordings?

Thanks!

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No.

Any buffer latency, etc , is a system known quantity and your DAW will compensate. Any drift on the click is either down to monitoring latency (for plugin based instruments) or just not being "in the pocket". Playing to a click is something you need to do a lot to get good at it. I'm always ahead of the beat - bad playing on my part.

OK, thank you all for your replies.

Sometimes I am thick as a brick, and I think this is one of them.

I will go back and look at my metronome, record it to Cubase etc., it will hopefully make more sense then.

Thanks again!

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Alexis -Cubase 6.5.0/SX3.1.1.944, XP SP2, 4GB RAM (1GB not accessible, but used just to balance the computer so it doesn't tip over); Delta 66 in Omni i/O Studio; Motif8; UAD-1

Hi -

I came back home and did some measurements. I record at 44.1K.

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1) I recorded the AUDIO metronome click "directly" to the project (kept it all in the box), and found that it was placed in the project spot on with the bars/beats (actually, interestingly, about 20 samples/0.5 msec earlier than the beat, but I'm hoping that's something that can be ignored for now).

2) I sent the MIDI metronome click out to my synth, and sent it back via an audio cable to be recorded. As might be expected it was later than the beat - 420 samples, just under 10 msec late. Since the buffer was 256 samples, I'm thinking that means the round trip transit time was the difference, 164 samples, just under 4 msec (is that a valid way to think of it?).

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Im not sure how to get from these observations to understanding how the DAW "compensates".

I would have guessed that when the AUDIO metronome click is chosen, the way the DAW would "compensate" would be by sending it out to our headphones "two buffers" early, so that after a D-A conversion we hear it one buffer earlier than the project beat; then assuming we play to the click there is enough time for an A-D conversion to get the notes right on the beat.

But the AUDIO click was apparently NOT generated two buffers early ... at least visually, it's placed right on time on the track. Is the DAW "compensating" by placing it on the track some actual time after it sends it out to our phones? I looked, but didn't see that in the manual ...

Narco (or anyone! ), is that the "compensation" referred to in your post?

But if that's the case, since the DAW can't know how long the physical transit time out of and back into the box is (unless it "pings" somehow?) won't it be sending the audio click out to the D-A converters late (by that amount) ... and so a note played EXACTLY on the headphone click would wind up late by a few msec in relation to the project track?

In my hands, with my playing, I don't think it makes that much of a difference to be honest, but I realized I don't really know how this really basic process works, and it is bugging the heck out of me !

Thanks for any help with this (where IS that newbie section when you need it!).







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Alexis -Cubase 6.5.0/SX3.1.1.944, XP SP2, 4GB RAM (1GB not accessible, but used just to balance the computer so it doesn't tip over); Delta 66 in Omni i/O Studio; Motif8; UAD-1

Really, you're overthinking this. Just chill, play to the click, and push tracks around if it improves the groove. Simples.

Must be a cubase thing. if you send something out an an extant MIDI unit, tough, it will always be late. Internal clicks should be bang on..... However , you are over thinking it!!

I think this is being somewhat over thinked.

If it sounds right, it is right.

Job done.

Render the clicks, put them on a track and play along with them.

And stop thinking - you know thinking just doesn't make sense!

You might have to join Thinkers Anonymous!

I wonder why you worry so much I have never had a problem in this area with drummers they play to the click and who cares if it is 20 or 200 samples out so long as it is consistant then the track is in time. The better way to judge is, Does it sound good? if it does then it is why worry about how many samples out it maybe.

The answer is in those 2 pieces of equipment that are plugged into the side of your head

Yeah there's nothing wrong with sliding things into place. Having the drummer (any instrument) playing slightly before or after the click can actually work to create a certain sound though. Before the click creates an urgent feel, while playing after can sound more laid back. It depends on the music/tempo though as if the delay is too much, it sounds like every bad case of latency we've heard.

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Quote The Red Bladder:

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Render the clicks, put them on a track and play along with them.

And stop thinking - you know thinking just doesn't make sense!

You might have to join Thinkers Anonymous!

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Thank you everybody!

I've not really felt that the click track was the weak link in any timing issues in my songs (I actually don't record to one, and my music is usually piano-based, not spot on the beat), but the more I read about how so much pop music is uber quantized, I was wondering how this would be handled in those situations. Mr. Bladder's rec. seems like the way to go if one were recording to the click - thanks!

Thanks again, everybody -

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Alexis -Cubase 6.5.0/SX3.1.1.944, XP SP2, 4GB RAM (1GB not accessible, but used just to balance the computer so it doesn't tip over); Delta 66 in Omni i/O Studio; Motif8; UAD-1

I recorded on an electronic drumkit for a company who did music for tv (a while ago)

everything was early...by the same amount of time....we were recording a punk track - the people there firstly wondered what was wrong with their system until i mentioned to them that they wanted a pacey, fast groove...

Drummers will often either be early or late depending on the style - which is why one records drummers instead of programming - to get that pushed or pulled groove going

what you should remember is that any tempo synced effects (such as delays etc) will still be in time....as long as one is consistantly early or late from the beat.

You could also try replacing your metronome 'click' with a more musical simple percussion loop or similar, because sometimes a straight click can be annoying rather than helpful and actually take away from the groove and lead to a 'lesser' performance..clicks IMHO are generally not very musical and quite cutting....

....i remember a thread in this very forum regarding 'best' kinds of click tracks to use with a drummer - and some useful ideas - damned if I can find it now.....


one would usually then lose the click after the drummers done his stuff - so the other instruments groove with the drum rather than work against the groove with a metronome....

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Quote Wease:

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....i remember a thread in this very forum regarding 'best' kinds of click tracks to use with a drummer - and some useful ideas - damned if I can find it now......

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http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/aug03/articles/clicktracks.htm

Early in the project I print the click track to audio so that way there is no drift.

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www.descentintomadness.com