So, my two teenage children have written an few songs and have demo recordings of these. They gig regularly and have them posted on a poular video hosting site (http://www.*******/user/loliver3). One track has been on local radio.

As responsible dad, I'm aware that they may get ripped off, so I'm after advice about the best way to copyright the songs (lyrics and score). I've heard of posting the lyrics and score to yourself, but is there a more 'professionl' way of doing this? Many websites offer assistance @ a decent price!!

I'd welcome advice and your experiences.

Thanks

Quote Ollie's dad:

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So, my two teenage children have written a few songs and have demo recordings of these...I'm aware that they may get ripped off.

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Guess again.

As they are the authors, they already have copyright automatically.

What you're really asking about is a method of proving they are the original authors in court, should a court case ever arise. Most, and probably all, of these methods (and services) are a waste of time. For a start, the likelihood that someone will steal their songs is extremely small (not counting illegal download sites -- but there's nothing much they can do about those).

Even if someone did steal their songs, taking it to court is a path generally not recommended.

Thirdly, even if you did want to go the legal route then it sounds like your kids already have plenty of ways of proving the material is theirs anyway. Sending an envelope to themselves will add nothing to that. But do it if you want.

The usual way is to put a copy of the lyrics and the sheet music in a manila A4 envelope, write what the contents are (v important) on the outside then post it to yourself recorded delivery (so the delivery date is recorded). It was suggested to me that I should ask the post office clerk to sign across the seal on the back and then to put a piece of sticky tape over the signature.

There are many other ways that have been suggested but this one is tried and tested. You certainly do not need to pay for the privilege.

Whether or not it's likely that their existing material will get ripped off it may be a good idea to get into good habits early. Also, it may encourage your kids to take their own material seriously as a product worth protecting.

The musicians' union apparently provides a service where you burn tracks onto a cd they send you and they keep it safe. I've not used this but a friend of mine has. She was already a member, though.

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Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

In terms of evidence the computer file of the master of the demos should have enough date information to prove when the songs were recorded.

the difficulty in real life is that the song is unlikely to be lifted in its entirety - the best bits would generally be used. Then you would need to prove that copying had actually occurred (i.e that the infringer definitely had access to the music prior to writing their infringing track) and then that a "substantial part" of the original piece had been used.

Copyright law is a nightmare to enforce like this - there is a pretty interesting (sort of) case involving George Harrison that sets it all out at some length.

Things to bear in mind are that:

- copying can be subconscious - i.e. the Court can infer that copying has happened if the tracks are similar and the original one was sufficiently well known; but
- infringement will not necessarily be found just because the songs are similar - the Courts recognise that coincidences do happen - especially if the person accused of infringement can prove that they are really unlikely to have heard the earlier piece before.

Bit of a tangent there sorry but hope its of help...

L

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please make it all simple.

The old send-it-to-yourself-in-an-envelope idea is the music law equivalent of the hoary old idea that the best way to acoustically treat your studio is to put egg cartons on the wall.

Quote Scramble:

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The old send-it-to-yourself-in-an-envelope idea is the music law equivalent of the hoary old idea that the best way to acoustically treat your studio is to put egg cartons on the wall.

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Hi, S

Are you suggesting it wouldn't work?

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Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

All it does is provide some evidence that the song was written before a particular date. There is a load more evidence that would be needed if you got into litigation on copyright infringement.

L

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please make it all simple.

I refer the honourable member to the answer I gave some moments ago.

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Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

Quote shufflebeat:

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Quote Scramble:

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The old send-it-to-yourself-in-an-envelope idea is the music law equivalent of the hoary old idea that the best way to acoustically treat your studio is to put egg cartons on the wall.

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Hi, S

Are you suggesting it wouldn't work?

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That's me buggered then....... and what on earth am I going to do with 8 dozen bloody eggs?!?!

Quote TheChorltonWheelie:

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Quote shufflebeat:

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Quote Scramble:

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The old send-it-to-yourself-in-an-envelope idea is the music law equivalent of the hoary old idea that the best way to acoustically treat your studio is to put egg cartons on the wall.

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Hi, S

Are you suggesting it wouldn't work?

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That's me buggered then....... and what on earth am I going to do with 8 dozen bloody eggs?!?!

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Ohmlette?

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Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

>Are you suggesting it wouldn't work?

It's more to do with this question: in what scenario would it really be of help? You would already have numerous other ways of proving it, and witnesses, etc., especially if the work is being put on the web and played on radio. Even in some incredible circumstance where it somehow goes to trial and you get a judge who suspected you were an evil genius who faked all that evidence, well, such a judge is also going to think you capable of faking the envelope evidence as well.

In the real world, meanwhile, such a case is unlikely to ever go to trial because these trials are usually a disaster (money- and time-wise) for everyone concerned, apart from the lawyers. And copyright conflicts usually involve something more subtle than proving who wrote a song first (eg. whether a small portion of a song counts as copyright infringement. Or whether the alleged copier had ever heard the original.) And no-one will steal the songs anyway because there are millions of songs on the web. Even if someone does, they most likely won't be worth suing because they won't have any money.

(Now that I have said all this I expect tomorrow's papers to be full of a musical copyright court case in which a composer sent an envelope to himself, and this results in him winning millions in royalties. So maybe send that envelope after all!)

It's perfectly true that the music business has changed dramatically over the last few years but speaking as someone who has personally had a tune with someone who was genuinely a co-author of the Belgian EuroVision entry I can confidently state that the system works for some people.

There are, I'm sure, many filing cabinets full of A4 envelopes containing masterpieces that will never see the light of day. In the end it will always depend on a combination of your songwriting talent and business acumen.

I do wish. however that I had an envelope addressed to my beloved Grandfather with half a dozen Beatles songs inside.

It is a truth universally acknowledged that nobody really gives a damn until there's already a pile of money at stake.

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Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

Quote shufflebeat:

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Quote TheChorltonWheelie:

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That's me buggered then....... and what on earth am I going to do with 8 dozen bloody eggs?!?!

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Ohmlette?

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Nice work!

The envelope thing has been thrown out of court in just about every jurisdiction in which some Wally tried to use it. Having such an envelope held by a third party (lawyer, MU, the bloke next door) is little better and does nothing to establish date of authorship and the various copyright registration bodies are on par with the envelope myth and not even as good as having a friend say that he heard you play that song or spout those words or write that article, or whatever it is that you are trying to protect.

There is ONE WAY and ONE WAY ONLY to establish copyright.

Publish.

Quote The Red Bladder:

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The envelope thing has been thrown out of court in just about every jurisdiction in which some Wally tried to use it. Having such an envelope held by a third party (lawyer, MU, the bloke next door) is little better and does nothing to establish date of authorship and the various copyright registration bodies are on par with the envelope myth and not even as good as having a friend say that he heard you play that song or spout those words or write that article, or whatever it is that you are trying to protect.

There is ONE WAY and ONE WAY ONLY to establish copyright.

Publish.

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I stand corrected.

If publishmg is not an option?

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Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".