As stated in my post about small mixers, I play in a guitar duo and we are upgrading some of our setup.

We make our own backing tracks which consist mostly of programmed drums and bass... some keyboard here and there.

At the moment we use a rack mounted Tascam minidisc player which has always been fautless, in this world of MP3 players or devices that use SD cards do any of you have experience or views on us changing what we use. I feel these players might reduce the size and weight of our gear...be more versatile etc, but I know very little about whats out there.
We would also need it to have an auto pause function after each track.

The one drawback of the minidisc is having to change discs depending on the set we play or changing the order we play on the night.

Thanks again in advance
Dave

www.the2fbs.co.uk

I've used minidisc for playback for many years (Sony pro model) but I'm just changing over to iPad. There are a number of playback apps that are compatible with the 'Airturn' Bluetooth foot pedals, which make for a much more flexible solution. You can playback uncompressed WAV files, and I'm picking the iPad converters whilst not ideal are OK for most live work. In addition you can use apps like the unreal book to give you lyrics at the same time as music playback.

Alternative would be flas drive players like the Tascam rack mount models which would offer auto pause.

Bob

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www.bickerton.co.nz

I've been on a similar journey to Bob...

Used to use rack-mount mini-disc with the track auto-stop/cue-to-next engaged, then 'upgraded' to rack-mount CD - but without auto-stop cue.

Have recently switched to PC laptop and Multiplay. Very happy with the result and it's easy to create and store set-lists.

Mike

The laptop option just does not feel to safe to me, also its something else to have to have next to you while playing.... I guess you have to have it next to your mixer?

We also have a footswitch adaption on our minidisc for me to start the next track.

I have just come accross this unit
http://www.dv247.com/studio-equipment/denon-dn-f300-professional-solid-sta te-audio-player--68472

Not sure about the playback options though.... I will keep looking, there has to be something out there that will work for us

But then apart from the amount of tracks we can fit on 1 minidisc, maybe what we already have is still the best option?

There are some very good devices on the Market now, some with keyboard support etc if you want that kind of thing

I use a simple citronic sd player which also has a USB slot for various things. Cheap and cheerful but it does the job.


http://www.htfr.com/p/333850/citronic_mpsd_1_dual_sd_card_media_player

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I eat kebabs when i'm sober!

It depends on how much you want to spend really. I have seen all sorts of successful methods including iPad applications etc.

I went from dual tascam 2424 units (sync via smpte/ wc) running exact copies to Pro Tools a few years ago. This has functioned fine and dare I say it, more reliable than the tascams which would start to show flaws after about 800 shows.
I now run dual pro tools rigs. Which gives the convenience of quick editing and a multitude of ins/outs.

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Control room to be finished summer '12

Edited by BWSE (12/05/12 12:39 PM)

Dave, As for the smaller devices, I've found they can be more difficult to navigate while on stage. A laptop using Multiplay gives a larger display and can be placed where you can actually see it - not in a rack. That being said, assuming your playlist is set in order, you might use a remote to trigger the tracks. I use the Logitech N305 remote number pad - and Multiplay lets you assign the keys however you'd like.

As for the reliablility of a laptop, there are far too many acts using them for that to even be a question any more. Turning off wireless and turning on presentation mode will set you up. The only problem I've had is forgetting to plug in the power cord and having the battery running low. That won't happen again!

I'm sure the other options mentioned work equally as well depending on personal preference.

Best,
Rick

Quote artzmusic:

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As for the reliablility of a laptop, there are far too many acts using them for that to even be a question any more.

---

Rick

I'm sure your right, and I guess if we went this way we might wonder why we never took the plunge long ago....

I still like the idea of everthing being in a rack though.

Thanks for your thoughts....

Just for the record you can mount the iPad solution on your mic stand so you have direct control from your performance position including very good visual feedback. I know it's essentially a pc, but it feels much more like a dedicated playback solution.

It really is the ultimate, flexible, secure Playback solution.

Bob

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www.bickerton.co.nz

Quote Bob Bickerton:

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It really is the ultimate, flexible, secure Playback solution.

Bob

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That's fantastic, Bob.

Now hold it up to the camera and... smiiiile!

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Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

Bob doesn't know it but he's about to sell me on the iPad. Just when I said I wasn't going to do any more to upgrade my rig! @##$%

Rick

Quote artzmusic:

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Bob doesn't know it but he's about to sell me on the iPad. Just when I said I wasn't going to do any more to upgrade my rig! @##$%

Rick

---

You have to watch that man Bickerton... a few weeks ago I came here looking for a sub-£100 mic and went away with a £1000 mixer!

It's a good job I know that he knows what he's talking about.

Bob
Where do you take the output from?
I have been using an adapter at the bottom to give me a line out, but it's not that stable and I keep losing the left channel. Tried a couple of different adapters. Last night I used the headphone out,and it sounded fine. When I used my old iPod classics I always found the headphone output poor. But the iPad 2 seems pretty clear.

Comments?

Thanks

Shame I'm not on commission for all my suggestions.

But buyers beware! When I suggest something, it is only my opinion, I do try to be as objective as possible and relate to my own personal experience, but there will always be alternative options.

In this case I like the iPad because it seems pretty foolproof, but mainly the interface and playback app options give excellent feedback, it's what Apple do well. I wanted to move from minidisc because of its inflexibility. Need to add to a set, you need to rerecord the disc, or at least add another track in real time. Flash or iPod/iPad solutions are just more manageable. Also I'm amazed my minidisc has lasted as long as it has given its a whizzing disk relying on a clean laser to pick up the info.

A pro flash player may have better converters (not a huge issue for gigging live situations IMO), but in terms of interface usability you can't beat the iPad.

Bob

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www.bickerton.co.nz

Quote SparkyG:

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Bob
Where do you take the output from?
I have been using an adapter at the bottom to give me a line out, but it's not that stable and I keep losing the left channel. Tried a couple of different adapters. Last night I used the headphone out,and it sounded fine. When I used my old iPod classics I always found the headphone output poor. But the iPad 2 seems pretty clear.

Comments?

Thanks

---

I use headphone out, but I'm really careful not to place tension on the lead. I use one of These K&M stand holders and also a right angle jack plug. I Velcro the cable to the mic stand, but leave sufficient slack so that the plus doesn't get pulled or tensioned. Seems to be secure.

Bob

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www.bickerton.co.nz

Quote Mike Stranks:

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Have recently switched to PC laptop and Multiplay. Very happy with the result and it's easy to create and store set-lists.

Mike

---

Mike, i used the Multiplay software at a rehearsal a few weeks ago. While it did perform very well, i found it used a lot of CPU when it was running a track on my dual core laptop. Did you notice this? Good program though & free.

To the OP, i just switched to using the ipad 2 a few weeks ago for backing tracks & its perfect. Only done a dozen or so gigs with it but really impressed so far. I am using the rather delicate looking headphone jack at the moment but, as Bob says, if you are carefull not to trip over it (ROADIES!) or snag on it you'l be ok. Though i am considering the Alesis I\O dock as a more sturdy solution.

This is the app i use and cannot recommend it highly enough.

All i need now is an app that will control the lighting rig too.

Quote Bob Bickerton:

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A pro flash player may have better converters (not a huge issue for gigging live situations IMO), but in terms of interface usability you can't beat the iPad.

---

Not quite true for the record, some of those, namely the Tascam players, but a few others, all have direct track access remote 'keypads' that can be placed much closer than the unit itself, and would make it relatively easy to launch tracks as well while having the unit in the rack. Of course this adds to the cost. And of course you could always do similar with a computer which has already been mentioned, even to the point of launching tracks from a keyboard on stage if you really wanted by tying it to MIDI.

All that being said, the point is there are a half dozen ways to accomplish this on stage and several 'good' ways, or at least 'not bad' ways, including sticking with MD as well.

Seablade

Quote Bob Bickerton:

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I wanted to move from minidisc because of its inflexibility. Need to add to a set, you need to rerecord the disc, or at least add another track in real time.

---

I realise this has been obsolete for some time but there was a way to put songs on minidisc in a "drag and drop" kind of way over USB. It was a Sony music management system that was totally useless for a hundred other reasons but did keep one of my regular gig partners using minidisc while everyone else and their Granny had moved on to mp3 players.

I suppose it could still be found if one was masochistically inclined.

--------------------
Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

Quote seablade:

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Quote Bob Bickerton:

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A pro flash player may have better converters (not a huge issue for gigging live situations IMO), but in terms of interface usability you can't beat the iPad.

---

Not quite true for the record, some of those, namely the Tascam players, but a few others, all have direct track access remote 'keypads' that can be placed much closer than the unit itself, and would make it relatively easy to launch tracks as well while having the unit in the rack. Of course this adds to the cost. And of course you could always do similar with a computer which has already been mentioned, even to the point of launching tracks from a keyboard on stage if you really wanted by tying it to MIDI.

All that being said, the point is there are a half dozen ways to accomplish this on stage and several 'good' ways, or at least 'not bad' ways, including sticking with MD as well.

Seablade

---

Yep, in fact that's what I've been using until now, Sony MD, remote access by keypad and footswitch for start/stop has been rock solid, but having a large touchscreen attached to your microphone stand with 'named' key pad start buttons, easy scroll set lists, lyrics displayed on playback, well it simply doesn't compare. The only reason I was holding off on the change was because I wanted footswitch start/stop functionality, which is now available with the bluetooth air turn pedal.

Interestingly, I'm still using the minidisc for my music theatre productions in schools, because the sets never change and I don't have to look at the display to see what's next!

Re computers, happy enough to use them when I'm engineering, but never fancied them for when I'm performing.

As usual it's horses for courses......

Bob

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www.bickerton.co.nz

Quote shufflebeat:

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Quote Bob Bickerton:

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I wanted to move from minidisc because of its inflexibility. Need to add to a set, you need to rerecord the disc, or at least add another track in real time.

---

I realise this has been obsolete for some time but there was a way to put songs on minidisc in a "drag and drop" kind of way over USB. It was a Sony music management system that was totally useless for a hundred other reasons but did keep one of my regular gig partners using minidisc while everyone else and their Granny had moved on to mp3 players.

I suppose it could still be found if one was masochistically inclined.

---

This wasn't Sonic Stage was it, I seem to remember this came with my earlier Sony mp3 players, maybe developed from the minidisc.. maybe not.

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"The tech gets better, the user error remains the same.." Roberts Plant

Since many acts are going totally wireless these days, (ours included) any suggestions on getting the iPad signal to the mixer sans wires?

The freedom this affords us in our presentation is vital these days.

Rick

Quote drargon:

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Quote shufflebeat:

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Quote Bob Bickerton:

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I wanted to move from minidisc because of its inflexibility. Need to add to a set, you need to rerecord the disc, or at least add another track in real time.

---

I realise this has been obsolete for some time but there was a way to put songs on minidisc in a "drag and drop" kind of way over USB. It was a Sony music management system that was totally useless for a hundred other reasons but did keep one of my regular gig partners using minidisc while everyone else and their Granny had moved on to mp3 players.

I suppose it could still be found if one was masochistically inclined.

---

This wasn't Sonic Stage was it, I seem to remember this came with my earlier Sony mp3 players, maybe developed from the minidisc.. maybe not.

---

That sounds familiar. I remember it putting up a hell of a fight when I tried to replace it with something more adaptable.

--------------------
Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

Quote artzmusic:

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Since many acts are going totally wireless these days, (ours included) any suggestions on getting the iPad signal to the mixer sans wires?

The freedom this affords us in our presentation is vital these days.

Rick

---

Now theres a thought.

I guess you could use Apple TV and take the optical audio out, but I've no idea what the quality would be like. If it was OK, then it would get around the issue of using the headphone out and potentially give you option to use better converters at the mixer end.

I wonder if anyone else could add to this?

Bob

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www.bickerton.co.nz

Quote shufflebeat:

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Quote Bob Bickerton:

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I wanted to move from minidisc because of its inflexibility. Need to add to a set, you need to rerecord the disc, or at least add another track in real time.

---

I realise this has been obsolete for some time but there was a way to put songs on minidisc in a "drag and drop" kind of way over USB. It was a Sony music management system that was totally useless for a hundred other reasons but did keep one of my regular gig partners using minidisc while everyone else and their Granny had moved on to mp3 players.

I suppose it could still be found if one was masochistically inclined.

---

While what you are referring to was a Sony specific solution, there was on many MD recorders of decent quality an ability to reorder tracks without needing to re-record the disc IIRC, and without hooking up via USB. It has been some time, but I am fairly sure I still have a couple of player/recorders with this functionality on them laying around.

Seablade

Quote Bob Bickerton:

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Yep, in fact that's what I've been using until now, Sony MD, remote access by keypad and footswitch for start/stop has been rock solid, but having a large touchscreen attached to your microphone stand with 'named' key pad start buttons, easy scroll set lists, lyrics displayed on playback, well it simply doesn't compare. The only reason I was holding off on the change was because I wanted footswitch start/stop functionality, which is now available with the bluetooth air turn pedal.

---

For the record, while obviously it doesn't do lyrics, what I was referring to wasn't the standard keypad remote access, but literally a direct access playback mechanism, meaning you had a button per track/sound and you had them labeled and just punched the one you wanted.

Seablade

Quote seablade:

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Quote Bob Bickerton:

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Yep, in fact that's what I've been using until now, Sony MD, remote access by keypad and footswitch for start/stop has been rock solid, but having a large touchscreen attached to your microphone stand with 'named' key pad start buttons, easy scroll set lists, lyrics displayed on playback, well it simply doesn't compare. The only reason I was holding off on the change was because I wanted footswitch start/stop functionality, which is now available with the bluetooth air turn pedal.

---

For the record, while obviously it doesn't do lyrics, what I was referring to wasn't the standard keypad remote access, but literally a direct access playback mechanism, meaning you had a button per track/sound and you had them labeled and just punched the one you wanted.

Seablade

---

Thanks for clarifying that, I wasn't aware there was such a device.

Bob

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www.bickerton.co.nz

Quote mick.n:

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Quote Mike Stranks:

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Have recently switched to PC laptop and Multiplay. Very happy with the result and it's easy to create and store set-lists.

Mike

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Mike, i used the Multiplay software at a rehearsal a few weeks ago. While it did perform very well, i found it used a lot of CPU when it was running a track on my dual core laptop. Did you notice this? Good program though & free.

---

I have a bargain-basement laptop - "the finest that Woolworth's could sell" - and I've never experienced any problems issues. Obviously, when using Multiplay, I have no other apps running...

Quote Mike Stranks:

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I have a bargain-basement laptop - "the finest that Woolworth's could sell" - and I've never experienced any problems issues. Obviously, when using Multiplay, I have no other apps running...

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Thank you for the info Mike. I also had nothing running (AV off, wireless disabled, etc, etc), but it still pulled around 35-45% cpu when playing a track. Although my I7 sandybridge desktop cpu barely moved running the same prog....but thats got a lot more grunt than my dual core Samsung laptop (Intel T2310 @1.47GHz).

May try it with a clean win 7 install & see what happens.

Thanks again for replying Mike.

Quote mick.n:

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To the OP, i just switched to using the ipad 2 a few weeks ago for backing tracks & its perfect. Only done a dozen or so gigs with it but really impressed so far. I am using the rather delicate looking headphone jack at the moment but, as Bob says, if you are carefull not to trip over it (ROADIES!) or snag on it you'l be ok. Though i am considering the Alesis I\O dock as a more sturdy solution.

This is the app i use and cannot recommend it highly enough.

All i need now is an app that will control the lighting rig too.

---

We are looking into this now....if we have any money left after getting a mixer and new cab's that is

Quote Dave.jj:

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The one drawback of the minidisc is having to change discs depending on the set we play or changing the order we play on the night.

Thanks again in advance
Dave

www.the2fbs.co.uk

---

Why on earth would anyone want to invest in a technology that has been dead for literally years is beyond me. I know people that still use MD, but that's because they see no need to upgrade, it works and so they're happy with it. However, if you're new to the backing track idea then I cannot see any reason why you wouldn't want to go for a laptop and software or an SSD recorder/player.

On that basis, if you use something like Ableton Live you can do all of the cueing that you need, pre-programmed pauses between songs, chain songs together into mini-sets, MIDI pedal to move to the next song in a set, etc, etc, etc. I've used it quite extensively, on a moderate spec laptop, and I've never had a moments trouble.

Quote TheChorltonWheelie:

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Why on earth would anyone want to invest in a technology that has been dead for literally years is beyond me. I know people that still use MD, but that's because they see no need to upgrade, it works and so they're happy with it. However, if you're new to the backing track idea then I cannot see any reason why you wouldn't want to go for a laptop and software or an SSD recorder/player.

---

I think you must have misread or misunderstood my original post, as I said we have been using MD with no issues, we are maybe looking to change due to the amount of tracks that one disc holds.

As I said MD works fine, its just the fact of having to change discs depending one how we play a set. We have not just invested in MD we have had it for sometime.

Cheers
Dave

Quote artzmusic:

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Since many acts are going totally wireless these days, (ours included) any suggestions on getting the iPad signal to the mixer sans wires?

---

You could try turning the problem round and have the iPad control a media player sitting next to the mixing desk.

James.

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JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

Like the majority of people out there, I used a Sony Mini-Disc for ages, although I do remember originally using CD..."skippety, skip". When I decided to get back into singing, I had a good Samsung NC10 netbook that wasn't getting used so decided to give it a go. I have around 750 backing tracks all in WAV format from full rate CD sources (about 26gb worth). My advice for what it is worth would be to firstly strip the laptop of all unnecessary programs that may hunt for an internet connection to update etc... and on that note turn off any windows update features and internet access. Once the netbook was running as lean as I could get it, I then installed a basic version of Winamp. I know that there are a lot of bells and whistles programs out there but be honest about what you actually want it to do and you should be fine. Windows Media Player used to be OK but it is now too resource hungry to be viable. Another good media player I considered was Foobar 2000 but I went for Winamp purely because it has been around for ever. I really like the simplicity of Winamp once you change the preferences to just show what you need. You can also increase font size of the song list view so that it can be easily seen at around 6 feet away. It also has a good colour pallet on the themes so that you can get a really clear view without it glaring too much on stage. Set list creation is a breeze with drag and drop and these can be saved for later reference. I have a USB footswitch that simply controls play/pause but Winamp lets you set up various "hot keys" on the laptop keyboard (I think "C" is play/pause). I can see where some people may be a bit nervous of laptop use on stage but I have never had a problem with it even only running Windows XP and only 1gb RAM. Just keep it simple, follow the rules about only using it as a music player and you should be fine.

Hope that helps………..Mark

Back to the laptop idea, ive been running my acer extensa for over 3 years with a stripped down install of XP and 1gb ram. Has done over 300 gigs + occasinal home use for playlist and other audio related tasks. Its been knocked had the occasion dowse in lager. in the same time frame i have gone through 3 mixers including two Denon units.

Not done any windows updates for 2 years as its not a web machine and use virtual DJ with external multi channel usb soundcards for better audio.

as long as you have a plan b just in case - my wife kicks off if i even try to take the ipad out so i dont even go there, not worth the aggro!

--------------------
I eat kebabs when i'm sober!

Quote Dave71:

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my wife kicks off if i even try to take the ipad out so i dont even go there, not worth the aggro!

---

I had a similar need to play single tracks from a playlist on my iPod/iPad, and I was unable to find an app that would do the job, so I created One Track Mind. It plays one track and then stops (or, optionally, loops that track indefinitely). It can also be set to automatically advance to the next track after it finishes playing. It uses the same playlists as the iPod music player, so you can manage your playlists the same way you are used to in iTunes or on the device. I've heard from several musicians who are using it to play backing tracks, so you may find it useful.

Nice little app! I'll get that. Thanks.

For those wanting a bit more sophistication, PlayFadePause is a good little app. Designed as a simple theatre playback system & pretty easy to use.

Quote Dave.jj:

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Quote TheChorltonWheelie:

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Why on earth would anyone want to invest in a technology that has been dead for literally years is beyond me. I know people that still use MD, but that's because they see no need to upgrade, it works and so they're happy with it. However, if you're new to the backing track idea then I cannot see any reason why you wouldn't want to go for a laptop and software or an SSD recorder/player.

---

I think you must have misread or misunderstood my original post, as I said we have been using MD with no issues, we are maybe looking to change due to the amount of tracks that one disc holds.

As I said MD works fine, its just the fact of having to change discs depending one how we play a set. We have not just invested in MD we have had it for sometime.

Cheers
Dave

---

Curve ball....

For a time I used a Digitech Jamman footpedal for backing tracks. It takes SD cards. You can fit up to 99 songs on it. It's designed for looping, but works fine for this purpose too.

The main benefit, which was important to me at the time working solo, was that it's hands free, being a footpedal.

http://www.digitech.com/en-US/products/jamman

You do have to buy an additional add-on foot-pedal to move up through the 99 programs.

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Quote GlynB:

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Quote Dave.jj:

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Quote TheChorltonWheelie:

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Why on earth would anyone want to invest in a technology that has been dead for literally years is beyond me. I know people that still use MD, but that's because they see no need to upgrade, it works and so they're happy with it. However, if you're new to the backing track idea then I cannot see any reason why you wouldn't want to go for a laptop and software or an SSD recorder/player.

---

I think you must have misread or misunderstood my original post, as I said we have been using MD with no issues, we are maybe looking to change due to the amount of tracks that one disc holds.

As I said MD works fine, its just the fact of having to change discs depending one how we play a set. We have not just invested in MD we have had it for sometime.

Cheers
Dave

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Curve ball....

For a time I used a Digitech Jamman footpedal for backing tracks. It takes SD cards. You can fit up to 99 songs on it. It's designed for looping, but works fine for this purpose too.

The main benefit, which was important to me at the time working solo, was that it's hands free, being a footpedal.

http://www.digitech.com/en-US/products/jamman

You do have to buy an additional add-on foot-pedal to move up through the 99 programs.

---

Interesting... I might look into one of these

I use a Zoom R16 for my tracks. It works fine since 2009(or 10?) without error. It's true, I dont need a lot of tracks/songs, just maybe 30-40. I can also use it as a relatively good soundcard, as it can record as a standalone recorder, or a USB device.

When having opened too many tracks for record it gets a little slow to start playback, but once started, no problem

I wanted to point out a link which can be useful :
www.syncinside.net