Any suggestions for the pro master recorder that I might find from ebay etc. (industry standard?) ? I have recorded my mixes back to ableton ( I use also outboard stuff), but I am not happy with the results. Mix is just not as good as it was before recording. Could be my converter or ableton or whatever, anyhow, I would like to record somewhere else, with bulletproof results. Usb should be there for file transfer I guess. Anyone?

Can you not bounce internally on Ableton? Or are you using outboard equipment in conjunction with it? I record all my outboard into Cubase before bouncing internally.

Might be worth thinking about upgrading your audio interface.

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http://soundcloud.com/richie-royale
http://www.mixcrate.com/richieroyale

I don't use Live personally, but I have heard other producers whom I respect complain that sonically it falls apart if you mix with it. They work the tracks up in Live and then mix in pro tools. But I really don't know how valid that is. It'd be interesting to print the mix to another DAW with the same converters and see if it makes a difference. Or try bringing stems from Abelton into another DAW. It's hard to recommend a solution without working out exactly where this problem is coming from. There's nothing inherantly wrong with printing the mix to some sort of master recorder, but it costs you one of the great advantages of the DAW, which is multiple mixes, aligned, properly labelled and stored within your session. Of course you can achieve those things but it's a long way around. And we'd need to see if Live somehow compromised your printed mix in the same way as it does if you print it back directly.

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www.jackruston.com

Only Master recorder I have come across, is the Masterlink, which is still relatively expensive unless bought used on eBay, it does a very good job, but is crying out for a USB connection. I have also toyed with thye idea of buying a hardware multi-track recorder, which has a built in CD Recorder for mastering.

I did have a Marantz CD Recorder which was supposed to be the business, but although sonically it did a good job, half the CDs wouldn't play on a car CD? but the Masterlink CDs seem to play on anything

Thanks everyone. Have to check masterlink. Have tried bouncing in ableton, not good in my mind. Also tried to record to wavelab, doesn´t help so much, bass and some high frequenzys doesn´t come out so well. Adi-2 should be fine converter, but who knows if it is that or the pc environment. I think I got better recordings with my minidisc back in the days, that´s why I would like to try master recorder.

here is example recording, no mastering, synths and drums are outboard, if u compare that to comercial stuff u hear the difference, there is cut in bass and highs are wierd

http://www.mikseri.net/artists/akk/haus/511414/

I used to use MiniDisk as well and was quite impressed with it, but always sort of mindful about it being enforced compression, but sometimes I think it is a case of let your ears be the judge. It is unfortunate that particular format became extinct.

What player do you use on your website, as soon as I click on the player, the song starts up, I wish MySpace player would do that!

Is it just ordinary Flash Player?

I might add that there are other master recorders, which I think nowadays record onto SSD, but I think they are quite expensive

Would you not consider changing your DAW? Maybe Reaper? Seems to me to be a lot cheaper solution

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Sam

Quote whis4ey:

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Would you not consider changing your DAW? Maybe Reaper? Seems to me to be a lot cheaper solution

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Another plan is to stick with Ableton, and record to another recording app running on the same PC. I think this has already been tried (wavelab) and not liked. Presumably mixing is done out-of-the-box. Maybe a better soundcard is all that's needed, but that too is apparently thought theoretically not the case.

So perhaps the OP is hoping a master recorder is going to do something magical, other than faithfully record what it's given. But then again, the OP states the "Mix is just not as good as it was before recording. . So I'm struggling to see where the problem can lie. Some weird PC setup problem - seems unlikely. So if everything else the OP stated is correct, I guess it has to be the soundcard. Either that, or the OP has such golden ears s/he can hear the effect of even the best convertors. In which case, a cheapish hardware unit "master recorder" (which cheap convertors) seems unlikely to satisfy.

Yes, i think it is flash player. It is just site for musicians to load songs just like myspace etc. Reaper might be fun to try, but I have already changed DAWs and I think my problem ain´t there.

.....hardware unit "master recorder" (which cheap convertors) seems unlikely to satisfy.

Yes, this is true, that´s why i am not buying one. I am trying to find quality one. I guess it comes down to converter then. Just hard to invest blindly 1000euros without knowing the results. This RME ADI-2 was already considered as high end, but it is not satisfying. And I am not waiting "magig" just same sound as before recording. Sound is "thinner" after recording.

Quote akkk:

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And I am not waiting "magig" just same sound as before recording. Sound is "thinner" after recording.

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Right - but there's no reason "same sound as before" can't be achieved on a PC.

Yes, I understand, have to figure something out.

Quote akkk:

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nd I am not waiting "magig" just same sound as before recording. Sound is "thinner" after recording.

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Sort out what's going wrong with the internal mix-down then, or how you're monitoring it differently. You don't need external gear.

My feeling is that this is a monitoring issue too.

Andy

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When the going gets weird, the Weird turn Pro.

Monitoring is not the issue. I don´t listen thru converter while mixing, everything goes to summing mixer and from there to speakers, and sound is beatiful and sparkiling. Yes, I could listen thru converter and boost missing frequenzys etc. , but that doesnt solve the overall flatness of end the result. Don´t know what to do.

Ah ok so you're monitoring directly off your summing mixer...Well in that case you are always going to hear some difference when you print that mix back to the computer. How is it THEN monitored? Back through two channels of the summing unit?

Personally I prefer to always monitor everything after the final AD conversion. There are two reasons for this...firstly, as you are finding that final process can cause problems (or at least differences), either through the AD or something to do with the software; and secondly you might want to apply some sort of automation or process to the mix after it returns to digital, which you would need to monitor.

J

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www.jackruston.com

Quote akkk:

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Monitoring is not the issue. I don´t listen thru converter while mixing, everything goes to summing mixer and from there to speakers, and sound is beatiful and sparkiling. Yes, I could listen thru converter and boost missing frequenzys etc. , but that doesnt solve the overall flatness of end the result. Don´t know what to do.

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Yeah... I've seen that before. Was fooled into it for a while - but from digital sources.... it's level matching (with the caveat that you have GREAT conversion going back in). You will find that ANY of the mastering recorders are inferior (technically) to high end conversion.

Quote akkk:

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I don´t listen thru converter while mixing, everything goes to summing mixer and from there to speakers, and sound is beatiful and sparkiling.

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So what you're saying is that the A-D converting your analogue mix output back into the computer and/or the D-A handling the mix replay back into the monitoring chain are degrading the signal quality.

That's not unusual... And the obvious solution is a better converter. As to whether The converters of a 'master recorder' would be sufficiently better is only something you can judge as it is largely subjective. Personally, I would doubt it.

Perhaps a more pragmatic (and affordable) solution would be to monitor the mix after it's conversion back to digital through the computer and back out again. That way you will be able to adjust your mix to optimse the sound quality.

RME converters are very good for the money... but they aren't 'perfect' and there are better converters at a cost which is inevitably pretty high!

H

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

I cant see how any converter that changes a mix from 'beautiful and sparkling', to one that is 'thinner', producers a cut in bass and make 'highs weird' is worth anything.

I dont believe it can be just the RME unit.

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I don`t know people. It is just so sad that I get so far, sound is crazy good, old synths sounds great thru that passive summing box and then the final stage ruins everything. Maybe I could borrow something from somewhere and try, don´t know, small town hard to find.

Btw. This RME unit goes thru adat to emu1212m, don´t know if emu is weak point. But they say that emu has no effect cause rme does the conversion. Also emu has analog inputs, but the results are almost the same, quite ok but still not good.

Edited by akkk (13/05/12 07:36 PM)

If I had the money I would buy lavry ad and independent pc or recorder box with spdif in for master recording. Should be bullet proof i guess, but costs 2000euros, so not gonna happen. Somekind of old fostex etc. master recorder from ebay would be option but hard to transfer files back to pc. Annoyng case, hard to solve. Ofcourse I could carry all my crap to pro studio and record there, but I am just hobbyist so no point in that.

And yes, I could monitor thru converter and maybe adjust bass and highs litle better, but this doesn´t really get me there, I have tried. Overall sound is still just not there.

Well to be honest that sounds like a very confusing set up, and since it is not clear what is going on you will get various answers to your questions. But it is for certain that none of those units by themselves, used in accordance with the specs, should degrade an incoming signal to the point that it is unusable.

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Quote akkk:

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Somekind of old fostex etc. master recorder

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It really wouldn't be!!! None of those old units sound any better than a DAT machine - and none of them where much cop compared to what's on offer today by (even) RME. Skip this idea..... !!

I'm suspecting "euphonic confirmation bias".... !!!

Ok, thanks, lets skip fostex then

Btw. I am listening this great wide beatiful soundstage here, sadly I can´t record it anywhere Well.....life is.....and then u die.

Edited by akkk (13/05/12 08:39 PM)

Quote akkk:

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..This RME ADI-2 was already considered as high end,

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.... most certainly not High End!!! But quite capable of rendering pleasing results unless you are very discerning; which of course you might be!!

Really carefully check your levels... 1dB louder could sound like better bass etc etc.... Of course, there could be some other unseen problem.

Why dont you outline fully how you try to tap this fantastic soundstage, then people might be able to help.

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Yes, levels are important, but there is something else here.

One cheap funny try out would be something like this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Edirol-R-09HR-Professional-WAV-and-MP3-Recorder-/2 30790532886?pt=Voice_Recorders&hash=item35bc300f16#ht_990wt_1187

and then connect rme to it with digital cable and see what happens and record there. If is still shite, then I can´t complain pc environment then it is the RME.

well - whilst I'm no fan of RME gear I'm pretty sure it should be capable of at least rendering your capture to "near as dammit" quality. Yeah - there will be some bass change (ALL converters exhibit a change of phase of parts of your signal but most of this shouldn't be too detrimental) and I've no doubt the high end may suffer too.... but it should be slight and only really hearable on world class monitoring (a GREAT room with £20k plus of gear; my monitoring, for example, can reveal the difference between a positive kick drum and it's polar opposite). Are you clipping the inputs?

One further thing, though - it is foley to monitor a signal at source - one should always listen back via the recording mechanism; whether high end converters or from the repro head. NO recording system is perfect.

...how you try to tap this fantastic soundstage, then people might be able to help.

well, output of my summing mixer goes to monitors, all good

then I remove monitor cables and put them to ADI-2 inputs, then I record that incoming signal to ableton or wavelab, doesn´t really matter, maybe wavelab is little better, but issue remains.

Quote akkk:

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...how you try to tap this fantastic soundstage, then people might be able to help.

well, output of my summing mixer goes to monitors, all good

then I remove monitor cables and put them to ADI-2 inputs, then I record that incoming signal to ableton or wavelab, doesn´t really matter, maybe wavelab is little better, but issue remains.

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Is it a "night and day" thing or just a "yeah - that's lost something".... If its the second the it's most certainly the ADI-2. They're pretty low end; even when new. Yes - hit records have been made with them, just as hey have with ADATs and O2Rs... (been there, done that!! ) but it doesn't change the fact that they DO have a sonically negative impact at AD for those with fussy ears (me included but I'd still use them if I had to).

What about the adat and emu you mentioned?

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- one should always listen back via the recording mechanism; whether high end converters or from the repro head. NO recording system is perfect.

Yes, I understand benefits and have tried this but because my conversion sounds stupid I rather listen without it while creating

that rme goes thru adat to emu, emu has digital card with spdif and adat

Is it a "night and day" thing or just a "yeah - that's lost something"..

last one, but it is enough to make it not pro

here, listen, this is made with this setup, no mastering or compression, hihats turn nasty, sound is boxy, just wierd

http://www.mikseri.net/artists/akk/haus/511414/

this one is open, wide and beatiful before recording

Edited by akkk (13/05/12 09:12 PM)

You mean you use the ADAT out to the emu? Have you tried spdif or RCA?

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I use the ADAT out to the emu


sound with spdif is the same

Edited by akkk (13/05/12 09:16 PM)

Quote akkk:

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Is it a "night and day" thing or just a "yeah - that's lost something"..

last one, but it is enough to make it not pro

here, listen, this is made with this setup, no mastering or compression, hihats turn nasty, sound is boxy, just wierd

http://www.mikseri.net/artists/akk/haus/511414/

this one is open, wide and beatiful before recording

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Sure your not listening back to the mix back through the same output whilst recording it? IE - is the channel MUTED that you record to OR is it going out to an output that is not part of the summing mix.

He he - done that plenty of times - its amazing how things can 'sneak back in' when you have complicated monitoring....

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Sure your not listening back to the mix back through the same output whilst recording it? IE - is the channel MUTED that you record to OR is it going out to an output that is not part of the summing mix.

Nothing is coming out from rme while recording, there is no loop, I remove all the output cables, only recording inputs of RME. I listen with headphones out of rme headphone socket if I need to, but don´t make any adjustments at this point.