Hi,

I'm looking for an internal sound card to use for recording. I'm a DJ and I record mixes, some of which are multitracked, and I also record scratching on hip-hop tracks. My PC is pretty high spec as it's a new Ivy Bridge build and it's running Windows 7 Professional 64 bit.

My requirements are good sound quality, zero latency (or as close to as possible) when monitoring the line in input and as low latency as possible while recording. My max budget is £150, although there may be some flexibility there.

Oh yeah - The reason why I would rather go internal is because I like to just plug the output of my mixer into the line in socket of my PC and then just forget about it, so I don't really want an external USB device.

Many thanks!

Steve.

Hi Steve, and welcome to the SOS Forums!

I'd recommend an RME DSPe AIO for the ultimate in low latency and audio quality in PCIe format, but I'm afraid you're not going to get really low latency for a budget of £150.

Perhaps you need to reconsider how low your latency really needs to go.

Anyone listening to their vocals in 'real time' will have headphones on, and therefore have the sounds 'inside their head', and a latency of even 3ms can be disconcerting in these conditions. Most drummers prefer to work with latencies of 6ms or under, which should provide an 'immediate' response, as should most keyboard players (after all, even on acoustic pianos there's a delay between your hitting a key and the corresponding hammer hitting the string), while electric guitarists can probably cope with a 12ms latency if they are used to playing away from their stack.

What are YOU aiming for?


Martin

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YewTreeMagic

At this budget, you need to stop using software monitoring and go for a device with either hardware monitoring controls or a monitor mixer control panel, you wont be able to put fx on your inputs, but as a dj, that shouldnt be a requirement.

The emu 0404 pcie has a monitor mixer, however the patchmix software is pretty un-user friendly to set up.

The M-Audio Audiphile 192 ( go for ths over the 2496, much better converters) also has direct monitoring if you have a pci slot.

personally, i'd go for a Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 if you havent got a pci slot, it might be USB, but much easier to handle than the emu.

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www.theautobots.com / www.scan.co.uk

Quote funkinlesson:

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My requirements are good sound quality, zero latency (or as close to as possible) when monitoring the line in input and as low latency as possible while recording. My max budget is £150, although there may be some flexibility there.

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+1 to what Martin has said.

However, you'll get a secondhand 9632 RME for around that budget, possibly even a Multiface Mk1 if you're lucky, and the latter will allow you to monitor with zero latency.

Thanks for the replies.

The main thing is that when I'm monitoring the input, there is no perceivable latency. I don't have an exact figure for what I'm looking for, but there can't be any noticeable delay. If there is a bit of latency when recording, at least I can compensate for that in Audition.

One of the reasons I'm switching from on board sound (aside from general audio quality) is because of interference. When I crank my speakers up high with no audio playing, I can hear both a kind of ticking noise and a weird sort of high frequency tone that fluctuates in pitch. Any idea what's causing that? I bought an Asus Essence STX sound card and fitted it, and with the speakers cranked up there was absolute silence - perfect - the sound quality was great too considering the price of the card, except when monitoring the line in input the latency was awful, so I've had to return the card for a refund.

My last 2 PCs had on board sound. I had no issues with latency at all. I've just built a new PC that also has on board sound (Realtek) and again, no issues with latency whatsoever although I am having interference issues as mentioned in the previous paragraph. So why is it that when I try and install a mid-range sound card, I get latency issues? I'd have thought that the performance would have at least matched the cheap on board sound in that respect.

Edited by funkinlesson (15/05/12 02:46 PM)

Quote funkinlesson:

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My last 2 PCs had on board sound. I had no issues with latency at all. I've just built a new PC that also has on board sound (Realtek) and again, no issues with latency whatsoever although I am having interference issues as mentioned in the previous paragraph. So why is it that when I try and install a mid-range sound card, I get latency issues? I'd have thought that the performance would have at least matched the cheap on board sound in that respect.

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I think, perhaps, we're all talking about different things. If onboard sound appears to have no latency to you then certainly posher audio interfaces won't either - ie you press play and it plays, you record and it's in sync with other tracks - so i'd say don't worry about it. If interference is a problem then consider going for an external USB box, also make absolutely sure you're not suffering from earth loops.

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PC-Music.com hints, tips & reviews
Rain Computers UK - Creative Audio PC's

Thanks for the reply, robinv. Regarding this: -

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If onboard sound appears to have no latency to you then certainly posher audio interfaces won't either

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That really hasn't been my experience....

I installed an Asus Essence STX card yesterday and hooked an output of my DJ mixer up to the line in input on the card. To monitor the sound I had 2 options - either go into Asus's audio control panel and hit the "monitor" button underneath the line in volume slider, or via the control panel in Windows I could select the input, go to the Listen tab and place a check mark next to "Listen to this device". In both cases, there was a hugely noticeable amount of delay in between what I was doing on my turntables and what was coming out of the speakers. I also tried uninstalling Asus's drivers and installing third party unified drivers, both with and without the low latency option checked on install, but this made little difference and the latency while monitoring the input was still so bad that it was unusable for my particular needs.

With the on board sound, I plug my DJ mixer into the line in and I can hear the sound. I don't need to go into any control panel and enable "Listen to this device" or whatever - it just works - and there is no delay between what I'm doing on my turntables and what comes out of the speakers.

So that is the crucial difference. It may be an issue with the Asus card in particular, as there are a number of posts on Asus's forums from people with the same issue, but there is no response from anyone from Asus (or anyone at all in fact) with a solution.

Here is a review of the card I found on Amazon.com: -

Quote:

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I bought this card a week ago and initially loved it because the detail in sound playback was excellent. Then I tried to use it to record live audio through the line input and there is a totally unacceptable latency issue. You hear the sound about a half second after you play something. I have NEVER had a audio card do that (not even onboard audio). I called tech support and they were completely useless.
At the ASUS website this is part of the specifications listed: "ASIO 2.0 Driver Support:
Supports 44.1K/48K/96K/192KHz @16/24bit with very low latency"
Very low latency, NOT!!!!!!!!!!
If you do any recording of live audio, DO NOT BUY THIS CARD!

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Edited by funkinlesson (15/05/12 04:34 PM)

You may need to configure the sound card driver to achieve an acceptable latency by adjusting hte number of buffers. There's usually a slider or data entry box to do this. In general, higher buffers are used during replay to allow more processor power to be devoted to handling tracks and signal processing, whereas fewer buffers are used during recording to reduce latency.

I'd second the nomination of the RMS AIO card -- I use one myself and find it excellent.

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote funkinlesson:

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That really hasn't been my experience....

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Aha, well thanks for sharing - i think we might be getting to the bottom of things.
With normal regular Windows drivers you will get a delay of about 500ms - that's half a second. With more up-to-date WDM Windows drivers that's more like 50-100ms which is still very noticable, but it varies. Latency only applies to audio signals routed through the software and back out again - it's the conversion, processing and reconversion that needs the processing buffer. What it sounds like to me is that the Asus card you tried is routing everything through the software and so you encounter a delay. Your on-board sound is probably routing the input directly out again bypassing the software and so not experiencing any latency - this is what we call "direct monitoring". When it talks about "ASIO" drivers for the Asus this is only applicable in a piece of software that supports ASIO drivers, like Cubase or Ableton Live - Windows ignores these drivers completely which is why they are not helping.

So, if you install any audio interface and monitor through Windows you will probably encounter some latency as they are all using WDM Windows drivers. It's only in Cubase (etc) running the ASIO drivers will you get very low latency (5-10ms). However, it sounds like what you need is to monitor directly, not going through the software, so that you can have essentially zero latency - you need a card with "Direct Monitoring" - most decent, made-for-audio soundcards and interfaces will have this.

I'd still recommend an external box. If you are DJ-ing then i'd recommend checking out the Native Instruments Traktor Audio 6 http://www.native-instruments.com/#/en/products/dj/traktor-audio-6/ or if you are recording other sources like mic/guitar then the Komplete Audio 6 would also be worth a look.

I hope that helps

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PC-Music.com hints, tips & reviews
Rain Computers UK - Creative Audio PC's

Quote robinv:

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Your on-board sound is probably routing the input directly out again bypassing the software and so not experiencing any latency - this is what we call "direct monitoring".

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Right, that makes sense. The Asus card would have been superb for the price had it not suffered with latency when monitoring the line in input, and I've since found several posts on different forums from people who have returned the card for the same reason as me - great for playback, awful for live recording.

Are there some discrete sound cards that do direct monitoring? Why would any of them not do this, as it only introduces latency?

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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I'd second the nomination of the RMS AIO card -- I use one myself and find it excellent.

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Do you mean the RME DSPe AIO card that Martin suggested above? Unfortunately, that's nearly triple my maximum budget here in the UK.

As for the external USB route, several people have suggested this to me, but I'd be happier with an internal card mainly cos I just want to plug my mixer into the line in and hook up some powered speakers to the speaker out, so having another box connected via USB that's outside the machine seems unnecessary. That said, there seem to be more suitable products that are external and in my price range, but surely there is something good I can use that's internal and within my price range? I'm not looking for professional level recording. I'm just a hobbyist looking for a way to record mixes with minimal latency when monitoring the line in input.

Thanks a lot for the replies gents.

Edited by funkinlesson (15/05/12 07:40 PM)

Quote funkinlesson:

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great for playback, awful for live recording.

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Yeah, we found that as well. Great convertors and signal path, sounds awesome in playback for the price... and the ASIO buffers are locked, and no real time monitoring. It's a great home theater card and little more. I've even had it out with a number of Asus engineers over beer regarding writing some proper drivers, and they are all for it but no one seems to be able to convince head office to spend the time on it, so it's unlikely to ever happen.

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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Do you mean the RME DSPe AIO card that Martin suggested above? Unfortunately, that's nearly triple my maximum budget here in the UK.

As for the external USB route, several people have suggested this to me, but I'd be happier with an internal card mainly cos I just want to plug my mixer into the line in and hook up some powered speakers to the speaker out, so having another box connected via USB that's outside the machine seems unnecessary. That said, there seem to be more suitable products that are external and in my price range, but surely there is something good I can use that's internal and within my price range?

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The's a few bits but we've found the NI drivers to be rock solid and great performers. Development of internal cards has fallen by the wayside the last few years as everyone rushes to maximise sales by being to sell the same interface to every type of user, be they PC or Mac, Desktop or Laptop so external interfaces have become far more common these days.

The NI KA6 that Robin mentioned above is the unit I'd go for under £200 for this sort of application with the Traktor Audio 6 (the dj edition) being the more suitable and cheaper choice of the two models coming in at about £170.

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ScanProAudio & 3XS Audio Systems
ScanProAudio Blog

Cheers, Pete.

I've ordered an E-MU 0404 to try, but if that's no good then I'm pretty much out of options for PCIe (my MOBO has no regular PCI slots) cards that have direct monitoring and are within my budget.

Would you recommend still getting a good internal card for playback, but using a USB option for recording? I'm a bit confused on how USB cards work to be honest, as I've never owned one. Do they do playback as well?

Thanks.

Nope, a single external or internal interface is all you need as either solution should do recording and playback (the are a few exceptions the NI KA2 being an example that only does playback)and as such you'd only choose to run one interface no matter where it's located. The Emu's suffered by a rather sizable delay in getting win7 drivers sorted, and whilst they've got them now performance is very much in the middle of the pack.

That said I imagine perfectly acceptable for your requirements, so should see you fine so just wait for it now you've ordered it and see how you get on with it when it lands.

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ScanProAudio & 3XS Audio Systems
ScanProAudio Blog

Thanks!

Last questions then.....

Is the Traktor Audio 2 worth considering?

If I was to go for the Traktor Audio 6 I may as well get the A6 package that comes with the external sound card, control vinyl and everything, so I could switch to using Traktor instead of Serato. I could then sell Serato to partly fund it. Sounds like a plan?

I've got a E-MU 0404|USB interface for daily use when i'm around and not in studio. as an interface at such low price [comparing to other stuff in its range] i think the sound quality and options are quiet good. Of course when i compare it with the quality of M-Audio Audiophile 2496, it stays lower. but generally it's ok since it gives you everything you need in a compact external box.

It records up to 192k\24-bit and on a 2.8 GHZ CPU laptop, it gives me up to 2mls of latency which is more than enough for what i do with it. there's a direct monitoring option too so you don't have any problem working at slower latencies if your machine is not fast enough. the rest of standard options are also there [SPDIF in\outs\phantom power on Hi-Z mic ins\...]. I've recorded audio, produced music in Reason and alikes and mixed with it and haven't had any problem yet. I even used it in several gigs to play backing sequencer tracks and everytime everything went so smooth and stable. In all of these occasions, the machine i was working with wasn't anything special. usuall 2.x ghz machines with 4g of ram.

Previously i had always been in doubt about using USB interfaces because of experienced USB horrible problems and stuff. but with this one and its USB v2, it's been stable and very fast.

the only thing i don't like about it is its 2 input \ 2 output layout. it would be cool to have 6 or 8 inputs so i could even record drum kits in different places. and i wish it could work without its power supply, relying on USB power. that would make it a completely mobile setup.

and aha.. its converters and input mic pre amps are so-so. converters are more ok, but i feel its preamps sound a bit hard and woody.

of course, we're not talking about a professional, top of the range interface. but it's ok in its size and range and options and PRICE :-)

You might find an ESI ESP 1010e cheap.

Worth a dabble?

Dave.

Maybe one of the participants in this forum can help me. I use Sibelius (a music notation program) and don't do any live recording (although I do plan someday to digitize my vinyl LPs, which means that I do need a sound card with at least one decent input).

According to the nominal specs, an ASUS Xonar Essence would give me all of the performance that I would need. According to the makers of Sibelius, however, the ASUS Xonar cards cause the program to crash because the ASIO drivers of the Xonar cards do not work. Not that I don't believe them, but they do have an interest in the matter, given that the company that owns Sibelius also owns M-Audio. I have asked about this issue at the ASUS site and have not received any response. Does anyone know if the ASIO issues with the ASUS Xonar cards were ever fixed? If not, are there any reasonably priced (I could go to £250 or thereabouts, I suppose) sound cards that meet my needs and that would fit into a PCI-e (not PCI) slot?

TIA.

Quote funkinlesson:

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Is the Traktor Audio 2 worth considering?

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Not in your case, as it's output only with no input options so wouldn't meet your requirements.

Quote funkinlesson:

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If I was to go for the Traktor Audio 6 I may as well get the A6 package that comes with the external sound card, control vinyl and everything, so I could switch to using Traktor instead of Serato. I could then sell Serato to partly fund it. Sounds like a plan?

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It would work, yeah. Depends how attached you are to Serato really!

Quote Balok63:

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According to the nominal specs, an ASUS Xonar Essence would give me all of the performance that I would need. According to the makers of Sibelius, however, the ASUS Xonar cards cause the program to crash because the ASIO drivers of the Xonar cards do not work. Not that I don't believe them, but they do have an interest in the matter, given that the company that owns Sibelius also owns M-Audio. I have asked about this issue at the ASUS site and have not received any response. Does anyone know if the ASIO issues with the ASUS Xonar cards were ever fixed?

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Whilst the ASUS range advertises ASIO support, it is very limited in it's functionality and for realtime recording pretty unusable. We've brought this up with a UK tech manager who just so happens to run his own studio on the side and understands the requirements of ASIO, and he filled us in on the fact that the driver/spec team on the audio cards don't tend to accept suggestions and don't really see the value in working on that side of the feature set any further.... so we're not expecting to see it improved anytime soon if ever.

I've never used it with Sibelius but having tried using it with Cubase, I wouldn't say it's great user experiance and would agree with Avid that it's perhaps not the best solution.

Quote:

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If not, are there any reasonably priced (I could go to £250 or thereabouts, I suppose) sound cards that meet my needs and that would fit into a PCI-e (not PCI) slot?

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The have been a number of interfaces mentioned above, so read through the thread and check out the solutions discussed.

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ScanProAudio & 3XS Audio Systems
ScanProAudio Blog

I decided to go for the Traktor Scratch A6 package in the end. It cost me £250 and I have someone lined up buy my Serato SL1 for £200, so I'm only out £50. Most importantly (after a bit of tinkering with the audio routing settings), it works absolutely fine, the sound quality is good, the latency is so low that I don't notice it, and I think that Traktor Scratch actually performs better than Serato for scratching, which is something I do a fair bit when DJing, so all in all it's been a decent upgrade.

Thanks very much to everyone that posted advice!