Good Morning!

I'm at my wits end with my new LTS ESP EC1000 - Left handed. I got the guitar from Thomann.de - no problems apart from an horrible plastic nut and some open string buzz. The locking tuners, tone pro locking hardware and emg's are all working just fine.

So I took it to a luthier close to my place of work - whom I have not used before and got a new tusq nut fitted. Job done - I thought.

Get the guitar back, and hammering on the high e from 3rd to 5th fret produces a horrible warbling sound. Hmm, it's almost like the string 'choking'. Really, really annoying.

I noticed if I play the note over the neck pu it seems a little cleaner - moving back towards the bridge and the warbling and overtones really kill the sound. Eugh.

So, I tried lowering the EMG's - even though the magnetic field is supposedly weak - no luck.

I then took it into a luthier I have used before, bit more of a journey - but they have done some great work. I was convinced the high e string was touching the back of the bridge from the tailpiece - and this may be causing the sound.

I have since had the guitar setup and adjusted for 11-48 strings, tuned down a whole step D,G,C,F,A,D. Frets were skimmed over to avoid that 'gritty' sound when bending with jumbo frets. But, I was told the string noise issue was the EMG's themselves...

I now find that bending the 'F' (G) string at the 14th fret produces an almost ghost bend or note after it. And the 5th fret tone is still there...both notes are G.

Sound clip here - https://www.box.com/s/eee489f25e6869db14b4

What's even more interesting is that my Yamaha Pacifica which the close to workplace luthier put a nut on has the SAME ISSUE. Different tuning, diff pickups (BKP's) -

Hammer on from 3rd to 5th fret - high e - warble.
14th fret g string - ghost notes.

Now, I'm just about at my wits end. My old fender in b standard with knackered strings and not even intonated yet (messing with tunings) sounds just fine. Clear, clean fretting.

Is it possible he's messed up the nuts on both guitars? Being a lefty, people don't really give an axe a proper play before handing it back. I do play quite aggressively with a .88 dunlop pick.

Right now, I supposed to be recording some guitar tracks for an upcomming Ep, and the noises are driving me insane!

Please Help!

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-The Power Of The Riff Compels Me-
http://soundcloud.com/the-good-dr

In the current absence of resident experts I have two questions:

What does it sound like clean? (or just played unplugged for that matter)
Do you have a third guitar that sounds OK pluggled into the same FX/Amp?

To me it sounds like some kind of wierd processing problem, surely if the notes are fretted the nut can't be introducing wierdness, unless it's getting up and dancing along with the beat?

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I've never liked a solo violin, you need at least five for a proper fire.

Hi Rhino,

Thanks for tips - I have tried my ESP and Yamaha - same issues. But, my Fender is fine.

I play through an Eleven Rack, so can turn off any effects tonight. The issue is not apparent clean, only with distortion. Had the unit almost two years, no problems atall to date.

I will also try a new instrument cable tonight, and check all lighting nearby incase something weird is interfering with it.

Only other thing is the action is low, and I do hit pretty hard. Might look at beefier strings and raising action. But, never had the issue in the past with other guitars.

Can also try guitar/s direct into my bass amp for another comparison.

Any other hints/tips gratefully received? Tech who replaced the nuts had no idea as to the cause.

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-The Power Of The Riff Compels Me-
http://soundcloud.com/the-good-dr

Hi Riffmagus,

These are among the most frustrating problems to track down, as you are discovering. And what makes these warbles, buzzes, rattles, hums and wolf tones even worse is that once you notice them your ear gets tuned to finding them.

What makes the guitar so rewarding (and successful) is that the sound is actually quite sophisticated harmonically. It is built to be played in equal temperament but the strings generate natural harmonics. And because of the mechanical properties of strings, when they vibrate their harmonics get progressively sharper as you move up the harmonic series. This is known as inharmonicity and on a piano it is the reason why stretched tuning is used. But on a guitar it is more complicated because the inharmonicity varies according to both the thickness of the string and the vibrating length. So, not only is each individual string slightly out of tune with itself, the amount of out-of-tuneness is different for each string, and it is different for each note on each string.

Now, when a guitar is properly set-up and when a nut is properly cut and fitted, what a luthier is doing is optimising all the places where tone is lost by poor transfer of energy from the string vibration. What the luthier is doing is restoring all the upper harmonics that are lost to a poor set-up, however that means inharmonicity raises it's ugly head.

OK... if there was a problem with the cutting of the nut you would expect the symptoms to be mechanical buzzing in the slot and it would be consistent on all notes. Using your fingernail to press the string firmly into the string slot would help you identify a poorly cut nut.

You have a fine guitar and I don't think there is anything wrong with it. However, it is possible that there is something about the way you like your guitar set-up that doesn't suit it. A very low action can sometimes cause problems, even if the strings aren't buzzing against the frets they can be damped by being so close to the fretboard.

What I would suggest is raising the action a fraction. Then look at the break angle over the saddles, I would suggest raising the tailpiece until the break angle at the bridge is the same as the break angle at the headstock. Next I would intonate the G string about one cent flat at the octave and tune it about one cent flat (this string always seems sensitive if it is sharp so forcing it very slightly flat helps avoid that).

Basically, we are making a few subtle changes that will make the strings vibrate subtly differently and remove some of the higher harmonics.

No guarantees of course, two experienced guys have already had a look at this, but a small compromise in the set-up you want might be enough.

Andy

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When the going gets weird, the Weird turn Pro.

Thanks Zen, there's some great info there!

That's what I'm leaning towards - with 11-48 things are rather loose and spongey in D standard. I have some 12-54's *with a wound G* to try also.

No pain, no gain.

I'm *hopefully* taking the ESP to my tried and tested place tomorrow - they are happy to listen to my woes and see what can be done. If it's just an action tweak, I'll do that myself. They did a good job with the setup, but not being southpaw's they can't play it properly to see how it sounds.

Will also raise action a tad on my Yamaha Pacifica *same issues!* and see if that helps. That's in Eb with 10-46 - so same soft string boat!!

Cheers, and thanks again.

-Riff

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-The Power Of The Riff Compels Me-
http://soundcloud.com/the-good-dr

You are very welcome Riff...

Try not to focus on details like string gauges and action, instead concentrate on getting the guitar as good as it can be. Problems like this tend to arise when you are pushing an instrument to be something that is on the limits of what it can do,and to be honest the tendency is to try and get the action too low. It's tempting, I know, but set-up is always a trade off and while an ultra low action can be possible sometimes the trade offs just aren't worth it.

Andy

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When the going gets weird, the Weird turn Pro.

SORTED!!

Turns out to be a slight bump in the frets over the 1st - 6th frets. The B and E strings were the only ones to not have enough clearance to cause 'zinging' after playing a notes.

And, the warble when hammering on from 3rd to 5th fret was G string sympathetic resonance. Nut slot cut too loose - which is the same on my other guitar. Holding the string above the nut sorted this out - nice and clean slides and hammer ons!

Got to wait a week for it to be sorted though, putting 12-54's on as 11-48 are too spongy when tremelo picking.

Just glad I'm not going mad, and it can be sorted!

Now, should I bother complaining to the tech that cut my nuts? Both have a badly cut G string which has caused this issue to drive me insane! Or, do I chalk it up to learning that you should only go to those who have done you well in the past...

Just going to be greatful to sit down and rock out when it's back!

-Riff

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-The Power Of The Riff Compels Me-
http://soundcloud.com/the-good-dr

I wouldn't say that you should complain to the tech... but it is worth having a conversation. If people don't get told what they are doing wrong they can't put it right. There's always a risk when cutting nut slots that you get them too deep, or too wide, especially when you are chasing a very low action. And it does sound like you do like a very low action. There are techniques to fill the slots with superglue and bone dust that can solve those little problems

But glad you've identified the problem. Although it is a bit concerning that there was a bump in the frets especially as you had some fret work. However, I'm not quite sure what you mean by skimmed, I am assuming you mean having them stoned a little flatter and in that case there really shouldn't have been any high spots.

Andy

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When the going gets weird, the Weird turn Pro.

Ok, so I now have the ESP back in my possession...
12-54 strings. Action raised a little.
I have added Gruv Gear Fret wraps behind the nut to stop sympathetic vibrations, and used for recording tapping passages. Make a BIG difference!

High E still 'zings' a little when played open. Picking it on the upstroke there is no issue - but downstroke and 'zing'. It's not a deal-breaker. But there - and I'm used to looking for these tones now.

When I change the strings next, I'll raise the action on the treble side a tad. Should give enough clearance. Not pumping anymore £££ into it, just want to play! Wish I knew of a southpaw luthier near me. Don't mind higher action and having to dig into the strings more.

It's a fantastic sounding guitar though. Awesome tone and sustain.

Would it be possible to order a fret file to fit the jumbo ESP frets and stone them myself? Guess I should learn to do more maintenance,

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-The Power Of The Riff Compels Me-
http://soundcloud.com/the-good-dr

Good fretwork requires a decent bench, a selection of stones and files, and proper training. It is possible to teach yourself, to some extent, and still do reasonable work but it's a lot more complicated than it seems.

And this really isn't a southpaw issue. Please, let go of that idea. It is nothing to do with whether the tech is right or left handed, the problems come from the decision making process, techniques, and mindset.

Andy

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When the going gets weird, the Weird turn Pro.

Apologies Andy, I don't wish to come across as negative.

I have spent around £120 having this guitar worked on since March, which is funds I do not really have. But, I shall chalk this up to experience.

I'm very happy with the work the second luthier has done, and there's just one issue remaining, which I feel is a combo of the lower action on the treble side and my playing style - I used to use dunlop 3mm stubbies, and now on the green .88 tortex. I'm not a light player - so accept part of these issues are my own fault.

The main thing I'm going to concentrate on now is writing, recording, jamming and playing music - which I love.

Thanks again for your help with this.

-Nick

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-The Power Of The Riff Compels Me-
http://soundcloud.com/the-good-dr

Don't worry Nick,

You really aren't being negative, I don't see that and I don't respond with that in mind. I promise. I'm just sorry that you've had to jump through some hoops to get what is a decent guitar right for you.

And yes, I'm a Tortex Green 0.88 user too. With stubbies, and assorted other picks, in the jar as alternative tools. But yes, green tortex is the bread and butter pick

Andy

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When the going gets weird, the Weird turn Pro.

Hi Zen,

More woe I'm afraid!

Spent the weekend trying to record some tracks and playing guitar through some REAL amps. Sympathetic string vibration was happening to the extent it was audible on the E,A,D and G strings.

For instance, play the 9th fret on the g string - causes the low E to physically vibrate to the extent it can be heard through the amp, and more importantly when the guitar is UNPLUGGED.

So, to play the g string at 9th fret and hammer on to the 10th and bend - causes the E string to vibrate and sounds a horrible dissonance. Yes, creative muting can kill this, but if I want to play a passage clean or let the notes ring, it's a mess.

The issues appears to be whenever a note is played on the neck that matches the pitch of an open string it causes it to vibrate and be heard.

I have some Gruv Gear fret wraps behind the nut to help there, and even put some from the tailpiece to bridge to see if that helps with the ringing. No dice.

If I get someone to touch the string infront of the nut and play - no issues at all.

Please, this whole issue is driving me nuts! Totally at a loss as to where to go now.

-Riff

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-The Power Of The Riff Compels Me-
http://soundcloud.com/the-good-dr

Hi Riff,

Sorry to hear about your latest problems, but lets sit down and think about what's going on and see if we can find a resolution that works for you.

Although it seems counter-intuitive, your latest problems are actually good news. In a good instrument you want all the materials and components to couple together as efficiently as possible so that the neck and body woods can interact and contribute to the tone of the guitar properly. When you set-up a guitar you are actually doing two things; the first is the subjective set-up that varies from player to player to accommodate their preference for action, string gauges, and playing style; the second is more objective and is all about making certain that everything is fitted together properly and is working as efficiently as possible. Things like bolt on neck joins, nuts, saddles, tailpieces, tuners etc, all transfer the vibration energy of the strings. The more accurately they are fitted, the more efficient they are at transferring the string energy into the guitar.

So the reason it is good news is that we know that all those things like the nut being properly fitted and slotted, the tone pros hardware being properly adjusted, the machine heads properly fitted, and so on are all good.

However, that still leaves you with a problem to resolve Riff, and we might need to look at the bigger picture to do that. You have a good guitar and some specific requirements as a player. You tune down a full step, and you have moved to 12-54 gauge strings because you need the higher string tension for your playing style. I've looked up some figures from D'Addario on string tension for comparison and done a few back of the envelope calculations just to get an idea what's going on.

Your ESP would typically be played in standard tuning strung with 10's. So we'll use that for comparison. Compared to the 10's in standard tuning, your 12's dropped down a full tone have about 11% to 14% higher tension and 38% to 44% higher mass. Increasing the mass of the string, or the tension, will increase the potential energy in the string. So when you play, there is more energy put into the guitar. And in turn, that is what is driving the sympathetic string resonances that are causing you so many problems.

There is nothing wrong with your guitar, nothing wrong with your string choice, nothing wrong with tuning down a whole step, and nothing wrong with your playing. The problems arise from the way that they all work together, and the way to find a solution is to either make a compromise somewhere, or make a change to one or more of the parts of the puzzle. I'm afraid you will need to make the final decision yourself, but here are a few suggestions that might give you an idea of the different ways to approach the problem.

Compromise your playing technique a little to work on damping the bass strings at the bridge with your picking hand.

If you can get away with not using open strings, try slipping a strip of felt between the strings and fretboard and against the nut. Or as a variation if you sometimes need open strings, use the felt strip but also tune down an extra half step so you can use a capo at the 1st fret.

Get a different guitar, perhaps with a bolt on neck. A slightly longer scale length and dropping to 11's instead of twelves would keep a decent tension but reduce the string mass. Maybe heavier, or different woods.

Switch back to 11's and experiment with a different plectrum for your tremolo picking.

Hope that gives you a few ideas about what is happening, why it does that, and some pointers where to look next.

Andy

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When the going gets weird, the Weird turn Pro.

Wow, Andy - that's a great post!

What I find interesting, is that the same issue on my ESP is also on my Yamaha Pacifica - which has had a new graphtec nut fitted by the same luthier. This has 10's in Eb - and exhibits the same open string vibrations when fretting other string notes.

In all my 15 years of owning this guitar - I have never experienced these issues before. Yes, it's a Fender style axe, and has a trem - so bolt on and trem will reduce tonal transfer across the guitar.

It's almost as if the ESP is transfering tone TOO well!!

I'm going to try a capo tonight @ first fret. Also dropping the tuning down a whole step to C standard with the same strings. Just to see if the resonance becomes more managable.

Muting is an option - but when wanting to hammer on from 2nd to 3rd fret openly on the g string - getting another string ringing out is a real pain.

Given these tones were not an issue when the ESP shipped with the bog-standard plastic nut. The only issue here was buzzing open strings when plucked.

I'm happy to adjust my playing style,action and anything to reduce this issue - but do wonder why I have never noticed it before. Could it be that a decent setup and graphtec nut brings these issues forward?

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-The Power Of The Riff Compels Me-
http://soundcloud.com/the-good-dr

OK, recorded some clips of the sounds I am hearing....

Please bear in mind, the tuning is one step down - D,G,C,F,A,D.
All standard string pitches noted in ( )


Main cluprit seems to be the F string (G) which causes the D (E) and G (A) strings to ring.

F (G) string 9th fret muted -
https://www.box.com/s/c94c1e5443ea0f889389

F (G) string 9th fret unmuted, resonance from open D (E) string -
https://www.box.com/s/41f903e92073b24299d0

F (G) string 2nd fret muted -
https://www.box.com/s/ec9f906294a5c68421f2

F (G) string 2nd fret unmuted, resonance from open G (A) string -
https://www.box.com/s/ef6e5be81c063d39f0cb

F string (G) trill on 2nd and 3rd frets - resonance from open G (A) string -
https://www.box.com/s/2b9a4754354e5948d4b9


A serious thanks for those who take time out to listen to this. This is just the guitar input recorded. Nothing else. The 'naked' guitar tone if you like.

It seems the resonance is worse the closer to the nut you get. But, I have tried using a capo, tuning down the guitar to C standard - and I STILL get the same issue.

I guess, as it's happening with a capo, it's not the nut - Could it be anything on the string saddles??

It might be my poor technique brough out by a decent guitar. But even with my previous Gibson, Schecter and Jackson guitars that were all the same price or more £££ - I have never had this issue.

Sorry to sound like a broken record - wanted to put clips up so people can hear. Obviously these are clean - with distortion it's a lot more noticable.

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-The Power Of The Riff Compels Me-
http://soundcloud.com/the-good-dr

Thanks Riff,

Quote Riffmagus:

---

It's almost as if the ESP is transfering tone TOO well!!

I'm happy to adjust my playing style,action and anything to reduce this issue - but do wonder why I have never noticed it before. Could it be that a decent setup and graphtec nut brings these issues forward?

---

Nope, not transferring tone too well just doing it properly.

And yes, a decent set-up does highlight issues elsewhere. I think the issue has always been there but far less noticeable. Now you have both guitars working better, and have also been practising your critical listening skills for a few weeks tracing down the original buzzes on the ESP so your ears are working better too.

Personally, I prefer bone for nuts and saddles. The Graphtec nuts and saddles are very good too, but I believe unnecessary most of the time. However, they are a good option for an extreme trem user having tuning problems, and they offer a very subtle tonal difference (a tad brighter than bone). And I wouldn't go looking at the bridge to find a problem either.

I haven't listened to your soundclips, I don't listen to any audio online and don't even have any speakers for my PC, but I think that the improvements to your guitars have highlighted an area of weakness in your technique. You've worked hard and practised the parts involving the strings you are playing very well, but the part of your technique that deals with the strings you aren't playing at the time has lapsed behind because you haven't had the need to work on it so much until now.

I think the give away is that now you have had both guitars properly set-up you are hearing it on both, despite them being different designs/woods/constructions/tunings/string gauges. The one constant is the player. As well as looking at right and left hand muting and damping techniques, look at how hard you are fretting the notes on the fretboard. If you have worked hard on clean and accurate fretting you might be hitting the fretboard harder than ideal with your fingertips, that would put enough energy into the neck to make resonant open strings ring.

Give that a try and see how it goes.

Andy

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When the going gets weird, the Weird turn Pro.

Ha! This is turning into a self-help column!

I had my own epiphany last night when I dropped the tuning from D standard to C#.

Whilst the tones are still there, if I LET them happen, the loss in string tension means my muting hand covers and stops it happening.

Then, I did a strange thing - Played guitar for 2 hours!! I had fun, and a smile on my face.

So, now my nut is cut for 12-54 - I'm going to work out optimum strings for similar tension @ e standard in C# - that's my old 'goto' tuning - which is a fine and happy place.

I'd like to apologise for being grumpy, and I should have looked to myself to correct this problem. But hey, it's all about learning on the tone journey...I got myself so frustrated at the notion of having to spend more £££ fixing an issue - I didn't look at the player!

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-The Power Of The Riff Compels Me-
http://soundcloud.com/the-good-dr

Don't be so tough on yourself Riff,

These things can get very frustrating, but you've always been very open-minded about finding a solution. And more than once you have said that you are happy to look at your choices and technique as well as the equipment.

I would say that despite the frustration you've worked through the issues systematically, sought advice, and listened to it it to come to a resolution that works for you. Well done mate

Andy

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When the going gets weird, the Weird turn Pro.