I'm making some progress - found a great teacher and am starting the churn out demos - lots more in the pipeline so in a year I'll have a collection of various original tunes (in theory).

My question in this...

How far should I take it when producing my demos? Is a tune which is not offensive to listen to (not boring or out of tune/time) good enogh as a demo or should I work at bringing it up to finished standard?

I want to compose and not be a studio technician so if I'm spending my time perfecting every detail it's time not spent inventing original music which I feel is worth more.

I hope to get someone to listen to my stuff when I have a collection and suggest what I might do with it - (get it recorded properly/it's crap give up now) etc etc..

In the meantime - any suggestions for my 3 - 4 min tunes?

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Skiving off work for a year to try composing - I'll need some good luck.....

i always thought the best way to use demo's is for gigging - or for showing a band a structure of a song etc (in which case a simple recording into a phone can suffice.)

very few people i've heard of and/or known will do anything with an artist without seeing them live....

so - i'd get your demo's to the standard of a gigging musician - enough so the bar/pub will book you....

....then you can think of recording them again if you so desire...

...another use for demos is to back catalogue your work....so this can be fairly rough and ready imho....

and to play the grandkids!

make them as good as you need - make sure everything is in tune, there are no glaring issues that effect what's being heard in a negative way (like everything to the left/bad distortion/technical aspects really)....and let the song shine....that's what i'd do.


then, if you like doing it - you can 'get into mixing' - if you want.

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http://soundcloud.com/seaapes

Hey thank you.

I'm not a musician and my music is so varied it would be played by a variety of people. I have no desire to get onto any stage and perform (unless I can be a Commitmentette - my dream). So the verdict so far is imperfect but comfy to listen to?????

Is there a way of connecting with bands who are looking for original tunes?

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Skiving off work for a year to try composing - I'll need some good luck.....

If you want to write for other artists, then your 'demos' really have to sound close to the finished article. Competition is so fierce that you'd be at a massive disadvantage otherwise.

It's maybe a little different once you've established a track record of writing commercial material. Then contacts may well listen to musical sketches.

Co-writing could be a way in but you would probably need someone to hook you up e.g a publisher.

Another possibility is to collaborate with a producer who can take your ideas to the required level.

fierce indeed. Met up with one high profile music pitcher not long ago - he spent 5 figures on the DEMO!!! Unbelievable. I am relieved his work went all the way!!

I am sadly reminded of the story, told onstage by Steve Harley (who is a pretty good raconteur as well as singer/songwriter) about how Cockney Rebel got their record deal by him and the violin player busking a couple of songs in the office of the head of A&R at EMI. The days are gone when an A&R person could recognise quality songs, and potentially good performers, in this way. And popular music has suffered, in my opinion.

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Gear List: reverse only.

Quote nerdle:

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I'm making some progress - found a great teacher and am starting the churn out demos - lots more in the pipeline so in a year I'll have a collection of various original tunes (in theory).

My question in this...

How far should I take it when producing my demos? Is a tune which is not offensive to listen to (not boring or out of tune/time) good enogh as a demo or should I work at bringing it up to finished standard?

I want to compose and not be a studio technician so if I'm spending my time perfecting every detail it's time not spent inventing original music which I feel is worth more.

I hope to get someone to listen to my stuff when I have a collection and suggest what I might do with it - (get it recorded properly/it's crap give up now) etc etc..

In the meantime - any suggestions for my 3 - 4 min tunes?

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Hi there, saw your signature.

You're taking a year out to try and become a composer? Wow! That's brave! Muchos respect.

Would like to hear more about your plans. I hope this is an informed decision based on gradually increasing profile and performance royalties and not just something done a whim!

Because it is a very difficult occupation in so many ways. The actual composing - which has to be brilliant but that goes without saying - is only a part of it.

Be good to hear some of yer choons! You can get some well informed, honest opinions on here that might help you in your future plans.

Good luck!

Quote narcoman:

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Met up with one high profile music pitcher not long ago - he spent 5 figures on the DEMO!!! Unbelievable. I am relieved his work went all the way!!

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I can go to six with one (now successful) producer! But I have a five figure deal going on right now, but I very much doubt they will go anywhere, simply because the musicians involved are not good enough.

And there is the lesson for the OP.

Get together with other people and get together with a really good arranger in particular. Let him/her have half the writing credits in exchange for doing all the heavy lifting in ProTools/Logic/Reaper whatever and making all the noises. That way, you MIGHT just get a half of something, rather than just all of nothing!

Between you, get a fantastic front person, preferably one with breasts (and I don't mean a Pavarotti look-alike) and let that person be your draught horse, pulling you all as a team to success!

Thank you all!

My last career was photography - I just ignored the competition and did my thing.

I still think my time is better spent inventing tunes than teccy perfecting - lots of teccys out there already......? Can't I just pay someone to do that for me?

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Skiving off work for a year to try composing - I'll need some good luck.....

Quote nerdle:

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Can't I just pay someone to do that for me?

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Of course! But you'll need deep pockets for the good ones and even half-a-crown spent on less than the best is half-a-crown wasted.

But yes, there are loads of them out there! I swear, if I lift a rock in our front yard, there'll be a would-be 'sound engineer' or producer under it. A few years ago, we couldn't move for DJs - perhaps they are the same crowd, who knows!

ooooh Mr Bladder - we crossed in the mail as they say!

I really don't want to co-own my music - I'll find a clever person with logic or whatever to polish it up for me for a fee. Can't be that impossible?

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Skiving off work for a year to try composing - I'll need some good luck.....

I'll do that for you. Would you like chili sauce?

Is that a eunphemism?

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Skiving off work for a year to try composing - I'll need some good luck.....

I'd be no good, i'd just sit there all day getting into the demos.

Planet Earth is full to bursting with 'brilliant' composers, noodling away in back rooms. I know of one guy (member of this forum as it happens) who can play piano, drums, guitar etc., etc. who actually can do everything himself, inc. techie stuff in Logic and even he gets people in to play other instruments, sing and all that sort of thing. He also works with other people in other ways.

In other words, making music is a team effort, if it is to reach more than just friends and family.

We think in terms of one genius who does it all - but that was never true (except in one or two very exceptional cases). Every composer had an arranger, orchestrator, conductor and other advisers, to get his 'genius' into the concert hall.

Working with others is known as the genius of the group. The sum of the members is greater than the sum of the individual parts.

Quote The Red Bladder:

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We think in terms of one genius who does it all - but that was never true (except in one or two very exceptional cases). Every composer had an arranger, orchestrator, conductor and other advisers, to get his 'genius' into the concert hall.

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I think the 'one-man-genius' scenario is more of where it's at with successful composers nowadays. Well, the one's in media music at least.

IM 'umble O

I currently beleive (until someone proves to me otherwise) that the real value lies in the original good musical idea. No amount of collaborating and polishing will make it good if its not.

Part of me wants to wait until I've got a collection of music but part of me thinks - well its a good tune - why aren't I selling it now?

I'm begnning to form my own opinion on what to do here. If the demo does its namesake and demostrates itself then it can be polished until it shines at the next stage - when its already sold itself.

I'd so love to stop learning Cubase and just bang out the tunes - they did it with just a piano/guitar in the olden days....

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Skiving off work for a year to try composing - I'll need some good luck.....

Quote Bob Shoes:

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I think the 'one-man-genius' scenario is more of where it's at with successful composers nowadays.

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Who?

Lady Gaga, Adele, Hans Zimmer, Philip Glass, you name 'em and they have teams round them. Arrangers, orchestrators, techs, the lot. Some have huge teams, all beavering away, some just have a handful. The OP is dead right to want to get someone in to do all that for him. How he goes about it is up to him, but there are very, very few people who have been able to do it all on their own and succeed.

The problem as i see it, with your aims (the three minute song format) is that all we really have now in the "selling songs" department is a recycling exercise. There's a scared industry that's reluctant to try anything too different, and when it comes to writing songs there are bundles of people out there who already do it, conveyer-belt style. They have this whole recycling lark down pat and can churn out songs in any style you like with all the arrangement tricks and beels and whistles that prick up the ears of people looking for a safe song. There are rules about chord progression, harmony etc that are known to rech the parts.

I see the commercial music arena as dead on it's arse. What is it that's been around recently that made you think "wow! that was brilliant!" Not, "wow, she's got a good voice" or "wow, he's a good painist!" bur just plain "wow!" It's not there is it?

There are "go to" composers and songwriters who service loads of artists and just do co-writes. How you would break into that i've no idea. It looks a bit like trying to break into the car market or the mobile phone market.

Not trying to put you off, like. It's jus what i see.

Quote nerdle:

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I'd so love to stop learning Cubase and just bang out the tunes - they did it with just a piano/guitar in the olden days....

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And they still do... I've spent the weekend studio building while listening to some great music played on just guitar and vocals.

When I was running a studio, we would often have composers come in and record their latest work. As the engineer, I would look after the computer and tape side of things while the composer played the keyboards and drafted in all kinds of other musicians to play other parts.

James.

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JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

Mr Ow - I'm not recycling anything. I'd discard anything that sounds as if I've heard it before. It's all rather uncool easy listening - but good tunes hopefully.

And as for you James - that's it - I'm buying lunch - when are you and Stella free????

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Skiving off work for a year to try composing - I'll need some good luck.....

Quote The Red Bladder:

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Quote Bob Shoes:

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I think the 'one-man-genius' scenario is more of where it's at with successful composers nowadays.

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Who?

Lady Gaga, Adele, Hans Zimmer, Philip Glass, you name 'em and they have teams round them. Arrangers, orchestrators, techs, the lot. Some have huge teams, all beavering away, some just have a handful. The OP is dead right to want to get someone in to do all that for him. How he goes about it is up to him, but there are very, very few people who have been able to do it all on their own and succeed.

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Well yes, at the very top of the tree you're entirely right, I'm sure a large team is the order of the day. But there's all types of composers making a living from all manner of composing these days. Slightly lower down the ladder the landscape is a tad different.

I'm thinking of the successful composers I know in my own particular field. Erm, off the top of my head...let's see...7+ on here? (Although I don't think 2-3 of them log in anymore). One man band musical/composer/geniuses that make a very healthy living (100k +) from their talents. You can compose, make good money and do the lot yourself quite nicely if you are working full time on it.

In my 'umble experience.

I could name names but I think this would cause embarrassment.

Are you a composer yourself Mr. Bladder?

Quote:

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My question in this...

How far should I take it when producing my demos? Is a tune which is not offensive to listen to (not boring or out of tune/time) good enogh as a demo or should I work at bringing it up to finished standard?

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I was pitching recently - (very unsucessfully! ) - to a publisher who had been a songwriter in the sixties and seventies. His view is that the word 'demo' is the mark of the amateur and he strongly advised me never to use it.

You'll probably get a different answer from everyone you ask, but here's some feedback/advice I've had.

Some people will listen to what Nashville writers call a 'work tape'. In other words, a basic voice/guitar or voice/keyboard recording which captures a clear performance. By the way, this still needs to be well recorded and with a committed vocal. It really does pay to keep this as basic as possible - a name record producer told me that as soon as a second instrument comes in he stops hearing a demo and starts hearing a bad production!

After that, there's no real middle ground any more. Ideally, co-write with the artist and produce a finished track. If you look at a lot of recent albums one or more of the songwriters will also be credited as the producer for their song.

Any way, best of luck!

That's interesing Gary thank you.

Mine are instrumental but keeping them simple. I hear someone on Jools' show said to just keep on writing - have a good portfolio ready for when the chance comes.

There must be so much writing going on - why is the radio churning out rubbish and so little fresh new stuff coming along...? Is the industry stifling creativity? I thought the internet had made anything possible.

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Skiving off work for a year to try composing - I'll need some good luck.....

Quote nerdle:

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why is the radio churning out rubbish and so little fresh new stuff coming along...? Is the industry stifling creativity? I thought the internet had made anything possible.

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Mainstream radio is pretty much irrelevant these days. Most of the work that I do is for niche labels who seem to be doing fine by catering to specialised markets. No-one gets really rich but it keeps things ticking over. Occasionally something breaks out of the niche and into the mainstream but no-one is relying on selling lots of records.

I like having the occasional dig around Soundcloud or Reverbnation to find something new.

James.

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JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

Quote nerdle:

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why is the radio churning out rubbish and so little fresh new stuff coming along...? Is the industry stifling creativity? I thought the internet had made anything possible.

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The 'industry' is risk-averse IMO. It's like any other business whereby money is invested in the anticipation of a profit. Radio stations need large numbers of listeners to attract advertisers*, so why take risks on playing 'unusual' music and risk losing listeners? Play music that you think appeals to the majority of punters through past experience and take no chances, hence the 'same old rubbish' keeps being recycled. Same with record labels, invest in what has a proven history of selling large numbers. Promoting an artist and a new tune takes a lot of cash, you don't invest cash in something risky, especially when people aren't buying records any more.

In the 70's when the industry was relatively rich, the big labels could afford to take a chance on something unusual and if it took off they'd reap the rewards. Those times have gone forever.

The industry aren't stifling creativity, they just aren't investing in it on the whole. The creative gap is filled by specialist small scale outlets in production and media, but not mainstream.

*That's why it's annoying to me that the BBC don't take more risks and play non-mainstream stuff as they're guaranteed funding, but that's another thread entirely.

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There are a lot of talented young people bursting at the seams to have their music heard. SOS at least has a medium to promote them. I am a fan of North Atlantic Ocillation and posted a link to their music. Surely it is time for the Internet to dictate to Radio 1 instead of giving in to Autotuned tracks? Being defeatist is giving in to the likes of Simon, and don't you think we can do better than that?

"No-one gets really rich but it keeps things ticking over"... Actually they do in the gig scene, especially dance, but that is no excuse for good music being denied to everyone else.

Edited by atechnogirl (22/05/12 10:28 PM)

Quote GlynB:

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Quote nerdle:

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*That's why it's annoying to me that the BBC don't take more risks and play non-mainstream stuff as they're guaranteed funding, but that's another thread entirely.

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And they just rejigged the nations sunday night radio 1 show, in a fashion which is not good for new music... and Tom Robinson's 6Music Fresh On The Net got bumped off the air too.

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Piet Haag

We seem to have drifted into another thread....
I saw this a while back... maybe the t'internet can get music straight from artist to audience and the talent can break though..... in which case a polished finished sound is what I should produce....


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/internet/8624055/The-top-10-places-t o-discover-new-music-online.html

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Skiving off work for a year to try composing - I'll need some good luck.....

From a strictly business point of view: If you are looking to make something your profession, start making money at it as soon as you have the opportunity. If someone is willing to buy your wares get the money ASAP, don't wait. Anyone who says differently doesn't run their own business.

Quote nerdle:

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unless I can be a Commitmentette - my dream

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I thought they called the CommitmentTits in the film !

If I could comment on your - the real value lies in the original good musical idea.

Personally I would disagree with this, taking an original idea, then developing, arranging, so the tune takes the listener for a ride, up and down, keeps their interest etc… (think this is called hooks) is probably as or more important than the original chords and melody – an arrangement can make or break a good tune. And personally I think Demos should have a lot of attention paid to developing the arrangement so its close to the final product.

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Madman_Greg

Quote Madman_Greg:

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Quote nerdle:

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unless I can be a Commitmentette - my dream

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... taking an original idea, then developing, arranging, so the tune takes the listener for a ride, up and down, keeps their interest etc… (think this is called hooks) is probably as or more important than the original chords and melody – an arrangement can make or break a good tune. And personally I think Demos should have a lot of attention paid to developing the arrangement so its close to the final product.

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Totally agree with this.
Never assume that the average listener will be able to imagine how the song would sound if it was really well produced, they won't be able to. They will judge on what they hear, and if that's a very rough demo chances are they'll be turned off the song, which is a shame.

An established artist's fans may enjoy listening to rough cuts, demos and out-takes, that doesn't apply to songs by unknowns.

Analogy... no use showing people a rough sketch of a painting in pencil on a piece of note paper and asking them to appreciate what would be your masterpiece when it's finished, they'll only judge it on what they see, they don't have your artist's vision. You need to colour it in and frame it for them before you have any chance of them 'getting it'.

Doesn't mean every tune needs an orchestra, but even if it's simply acoustic guitar and vocal it should be a great performance well recorded.

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Got a horrible feeling you are right. After years of photography and telling clients that the photo would look great in black and white and cropped 'here' - they just can't visualise it as I can.

I've run some new tracks past friends to get feedback and they like the polished finished ones and not the 'sketch' with is a far stronger piece imo....

Had a good listen to Gaga pokerface and coud hear all the clever production input (two simulaneous voices with diff EQ etc) and I'm wondering when I can reach the stage where I can produce to that standard. It's a whole profession in itself.

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Skiving off work for a year to try composing - I'll need some good luck.....

Quote GlynB:

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Quote Madman_Greg:

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Quote nerdle:

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unless I can be a Commitmentette - my dream

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... taking an original idea, then developing, arranging, so the tune takes the listener for a ride, up and down, keeps their interest etc… (think this is called hooks) is probably as or more important than the original chords and melody – an arrangement can make or break a good tune. And personally I think Demos should have a lot of attention paid to developing the arrangement so its close to the final product.

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Totally agree with this.
Never assume that the average listener will be able to imagine how the song would sound if it was really well produced, they won't be able to. They will judge on what they hear, and if that's a very rough demo chances are they'll be turned off the song, which is a shame.

An established artist's fans may enjoy listening to rough cuts, demos and out-takes, that doesn't apply to songs by unknowns.

Analogy... no use showing people a rough sketch of a painting in pencil on a piece of note paper and asking them to appreciate what would be your masterpiece when it's finished, they'll only judge it on what they see, they don't have your artist's vision. You need to colour it in and frame it for them before you have any chance of them 'getting it'.

Doesn't mean every tune needs an orchestra, but even if it's simply acoustic guitar and vocal it should be a great performance well recorded.

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Whatever happened to the days when someone like Daniel Johnston (song writing genius) could just go out to his local beach in L.A. and give away crappy sounding cassette tapes of just himself singing and playing an old piano ('worried shoes' anyone) which btw he had just recorded standing in front of a cheap 70's stereo casstte recorder and by doing so eventually came to the attention of those that mattered in the music biz at that time.. to later go on and be hailed as a true song writing genius? All that.. and he was suffering from severe depression too!

Eh.. Whatever happened...?