I'm thinking of moving to new tops (2 per side?) for my part time work for bands performing a variety of music (rock, pop, blues, metal, folk). I ordinarily expect to have to cover a maximum 250 people indoors and occasionally 500+ outdoors (I don't consider myself a 'festival' provider).

My questions:
1. What products has anyone used and can provide a real world review of within the range of JBL VRX932LAP, EAW JFL210, and Mackie KLA12?

2. Has anyone had a chance to use more than one of these products in live music situations? If so, how did they compare?

3. If you are an owner can you tell me anything about their reliability (especially the VX932LAP and KLA12) - I'm concerned about onboard electronics failures or inferior digital processing.

All input is appreciated. For reference, I currently use 4 Community RS325's (yep, fairly old but still sound good and loud) as well as Community SLS960's (very loud, but hard for me to setup solo).

Thanks in advance,
Tom

Quote ac30boy:

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I'm thinking of moving to new tops (2 per side?) for my part time work for bands performing a variety of music (rock, pop, blues, metal, folk). I ordinarily expect to have to cover a maximum 250 people indoors and occasionally 500+ outdoors (I don't consider myself a 'festival' provider).

My questions:
1. What products has anyone used and can provide a real world review of within the range of JBL VRX932LAP, EAW JFL210, and Mackie KLA12?

2. Has anyone had a chance to use more than one of these products in live music situations? If so, how did they compare?

3. If you are an owner can you tell me anything about their reliability (especially the VX932LAP and KLA12) - I'm concerned about onboard electronics failures or inferior digital processing.

All input is appreciated. For reference, I currently use 4 Community RS325's (yep, fairly old but still sound good and loud) as well as Community SLS960's (very loud, but hard for me to setup solo).

Thanks in advance,
Tom

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My question for you, what benefit do you think you are getting out of using line arrays at 2 boxes a side compared to good point sources?

Seablade

My goal would be easier coverage and scalability. In reality, I assume I would probably move to 3/side for larger gigs. I don't do the kind of work that would require 'real' line arrays. Also, I like the smaller footprint I think I could achieve with the curvilinear line arrays.

Now, for full disclosure - I have never actually used these kinds of boxes. But, I have heard them in action (the VRX932LAs - passive, not powered) and thought they did very well at an outdoor event at a church carnival with a 9 piece band doing rock/dance material (5 guitar players!). The tent held about 400-500 people and I was surprised at the coverage, sound quality, and SPL. Of course, one listening experience is hardly scientific evidence.

Quote ac30boy:

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My goal would be easier coverage and scalability. In reality, I assume I would probably move to 3/side for larger gigs. I don't do the kind of work that would require 'real' line arrays. Also, I like the smaller footprint I think I could achieve with the curvilinear line arrays.

Now, for full disclosure - I have never actually used these kinds of boxes. But, I have heard them in action (the VRX932LAs - passive, not powered) and thought they did very well at an outdoor event at a church carnival with a 9 piece band doing rock/dance material (5 guitar players!). The tent held about 400-500 people and I was surprised at the coverage, sound quality, and SPL. Of course, one listening experience is hardly scientific evidence.

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Well here is the thing, even with 3 boxes per side you are getting almost no benefit from the 'line array'. Much less 2. I see these things tossed out so much when they are not the proper solution it is ridiculous. There are points where they may provide some benefit, but most of that has to do with acoustic shadowing, etc. and the only powered line array boxes I have seen handle this well is the QSC boxes IIRC, and really that would be most beneficial primarily in situations where the coverage area is slanted, not so much with flat areas.

The best thing you can do in a 'typical' situation where your audience is not seated in an area that is raked, is to get your speakers up high and point them down. There isn't any way around this really. These 'mini-array' solution do little to improve things over a well placed point source box other than increase the price tremendously over an equivalent quality point source solution.

If your audience is in a raked configuration primarily, then yes these boxes combined with acoustic shadowing can provide some benefit. In which case I would suggest looking at the newest QSC powered solutions for this(The KLA12 which I assume is what you were referring to when you said Mackie KLA12), which have built in processing to handle this well. You will want to pair them with their sub of course.

But yes once again I would suggest you look strongly over whether you are truly getting any benefit from array solutions for the extra money you would be paying. I strongly suspect you are going to find the answer is no, despite what the marketing tells you.

Seablade

So perhaps I should be looking into better lift technology for my existing speakers (which do, btw, get many compliments - nobody believes these are nearly 20 year old designs)?

The elevation is usually the issue - trying to get them to fire down at an angle. Not an impossible task, just more challenging with simple stands. Since most point source boxes have around a 40+ degree vertical dispersion you certainly don't want to waste sound going up into the air (or worse yet, reflecting off of a hard ceiling).

Perhaps we need to invent something like the pole mounting hardware installed on many of the newer curvilinear units - they usually have a 15 degree down angle pole socket in addition to a level one. Think we would have customers for that who don't want to invest in more expensive tower/mount point hardware?

Quote ac30boy:

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Perhaps we need to invent something like the pole mounting hardware installed on many of the newer curvilinear units - they usually have a 15 degree down angle pole socket in addition to a level one. Think we would have customers for that who don't want to invest in more expensive tower/mount point hardware?

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You mean something like these things? ...

http://products.k-m.de/us/Speakerlighting-and-monitor-stands-and-holders/A ccessories-for-speaker-stands/19670-SPEAKER-TILT-CONNECTOR-black

Or that the dual functionality sockets (15 vs 0 degree incline) which exist on some point source speakers for this very reason?

Really how much you have to worry about this varies depending primarily on the acoustical properties of the venue you are in. Personally I have covered large outdoor crowds just doing ground stacked cabinets before, it all depends. However if I was in a very reverberant setting then yes I would worry much more about the downward facing angle to make sure that I not only had even coverage, but also that the coverage was not on the walls and ceilings.

But really when dealing with height required for decent, even, coverage of a large area you are beyond the point of using simple speaker stands anyways and are rigging cabinets, etc. So again it depends on your particular situation.

Seablade

Exactly the idea! Now, if they make one for a 75lb box I'm set. Obviously, ya gotta think about the physics of leaning a box that's top heavy a little too much on a stand - time to crunch some numbers - I knew that year of engineering physics in college would eventually be worth more than a bunch of credits on my transcript.

THIS one gets around the 'tipping' issue.... I use them more often than not.

Sadly they're only rated at 66lbs.

About the two or 3-unit arrays ... apart form thoery, I've noticed some nice systems that work well, the Logic-System stuff:


VA



CA



They work well, I noticed them in a few medium sized venues ... nice I thought ... and I bought a few CAs with subs and monitors, and have been very pleased. Not generally well-known, but good kit with an interesting designs by Chris Scott. Good after-sales service, made in Britain, and ... good value.

I have nothing to do with the company by the way, just a happy customer with happy clients.

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PA stuff on FB

Hmmm... perhaps if take my boxes to a cosmetic surgeon for some liposuction I could get them on those adapters.

I cant understand how a line array can ever be better than a point source period. Speaker systems go thru fashion trends and line array is just that. I recently saw a massive line array at an outdoor gig. The same result and even better coverage could have come from 2 of the OLD Martin M300 Phiilies 3 way systems, with half the amps and a point source.

The only way modern speakers are any better than those of years ago is light weight period. The rest is just trendy bullshit. My venerable JBL 4726(2206+2426 on 2344 flare) monitor rig utterly blows away every self powered plastic box system I have come across. Users constantly tell me they can hear subtle detail the have never heard before in their voices with these cabs. Yeh it takes a bit more work on EQ'ing than a digital plastic fantastic but its well worth the effort!

Quote Falconhell:

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I cant understand how a line array can ever be better than a point source period. Speaker systems go thru fashion trends and line array is just that.

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Sorry this is just wrong. While I am the first to say Line Arrays get used because they are the 'new' product and because of marketing more than because of their merits, that isn't to say they don't have merits, particularly in the application you just mentioned. The biggest merit is due to physics, namely the fact that you lose approx 3dB per doubling of distance instead of 6dB per doubling of distance that you get with point sources. You also have ease of traveling, rigging, etc. as well. The ability to shape the coverage by changing splay angles, etc. to match the needs of multiple venues, heck with more advanced systems you can even do this digitally. There are many advantages that when used properly can make line arrays a better choice than point sources.

All that being said, as I mentioned above, point sources are very often the better choices especially for shorter throws where the inverse square law is not as big of a factor. You also get less phasing issues, etc.

Seablade

The company I work for uses the VRX932LA's overtop of the powered VRX subs for the owner's band and for small shows. 2 on a stick over two subs, it gets loud and can throw far. I've heard about the same from the QSC KLA, except the KLA's highs slack off just a bit more than the JBL's, but still great cabs nonetheless.

Another food for thought, how about the dB Technologies DVA T4? I've been looking at their line arrays, they're extremely light, and they have hardware to mount 2-3 boxes on a pole, plus you can always buy more later. They're around the price of the KLA's IIRC (maybe less, I got a quote from a dealer here in the US) and they draw little power (they say up to 8 boxes can be deployed on a 15A (US 120v) circuit.

Just some food for thought.

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Ice Cold Entertainment DJ/Live Sound Services Ashland, KY, USA
Coming Soon: Presonus 32.4.2AI, QSC KW153/KW181 FOH, EV ELX Foldback

Quote Mike Sullivan:

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The company I work for uses the VRX932LA's overtop of the powered VRX subs for the owner's band and for small shows. 2 on a stick over two subs, it gets loud and can throw far. I've heard about the same from the QSC KLA, except the KLA's highs slack off just a bit more than the JBL's, but still great cabs nonetheless.

Another food for thought, how about the dB Technologies DVA T4? I've been looking at their line arrays, they're extremely light, and they have hardware to mount 2-3 boxes on a pole, plus you can always buy more later. They're around the price of the KLA's IIRC (maybe less, I got a quote from a dealer here in the US) and they draw little power (they say up to 8 boxes can be deployed on a 15A (US 120v) circuit.

Just some food for thought.

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See all my above comments about misusing line arrays vs using point sources.

Seablade

Edited by seablade (03/10/12 10:48 AM)