Okay, at the moment This is my plan/learning structure

Learn F major
Then its relative natural minor D
then the Harmonic D minor (seventh note up a semitone?)
Do I have to go melodic too

repeat this with all major keys

Any learning tips , is this a correct method and is there another ,major variation /
Im practising fingering, arpeggios, and as much cresendo as my 2 octave midi keyboard will alow

Have you practiced major scales through the cycle of 5ths (F C G D A E B F# C# G# D# A#)?

If you're struggling with knowing the scales, you can learn a lot by thinking of the patterns even when you're not at a keyboard.

What you need to learn depends on what you want to do with it. There are players who just play pieces of music, and rarely do any other practice. Music itself contains scales, arpeggios, chords, etc, in the right proportion, but you could also just learn pieces (more enjoyable!) and then maybe do a bit of analysis of the music. That is, practice the underlying scales and arpeggios in the pieces.

But... if you're using a two-octave MIDI keyboard, it's not going to be enough. Is it full-size keys? Most pieces of music require more than two octaves. Learning scales isn't going to strengthen your fingers much, getting an even tone on that is going to be very different than on an acoustic piano.

If you want to learn chord improvisation, a two octave keyboard might be a good starting point though. The jazz pianist George Shearing used to play very effective harmonies within two octaves. I suppose it encouraged good voice-leading between chords. You could learn lots of chord progressions within two octaves until you get a new keyboard. If it's got full-size keys, at least you could be learning to play chords with relaxed fingering.

Thanks for the reply
Didn't play all the major scales through the cycle of 5ths but chromatically , will take the cycle of 5ths approach , tonight C+Amin /easy

I really am looking to get a sense of the building blocks of music , the a.b.c s, watching synth demos on you tube with keyboardists just going free style without much effort , its really cool , I play a few pieces on the side and try and work out chords and such as limited as this keyboard is , I plan to go for a good size master in a short while , weighted action etc, , so learning the scale , the chords etc ,

good tip to think of it all while not at a piano keyboards TTTSTTS?

็Hi
I've been playing piano on and off as hobby for many years,the virtuosity of pianists come from playing it more than many years.
I suggest you play any coversong you like along with practising scales,you dont have to play every keys.
Along with the scales try classical pieces like the easy part of fur elise,practise each hand slowly ,separately.Keep doing it,you will gain a solid mastery over it along the years.

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Quote J.A.S:

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Have you practiced major scales through the cycle of 5ths (F C G D A E B F# C# G# D# A#)?

If you're struggling with knowing the scales, you can learn a lot by thinking of the patterns even when you're not at a keyboard.

What you need to learn depends on what you want to do with it. There are players who just play pieces of music, and rarely do any other practice. Music itself contains scales, arpeggios, chords, etc, in the right proportion, but you could also just learn pieces (more enjoyable!) and then maybe do a bit of analysis of the music. That is, practice the underlying scales and arpeggios in the pieces.

But... if you're using a two-octave MIDI keyboard, it's not going to be enough. Is it full-size keys? Most pieces of music require more than two octaves. Learning scales isn't going to strengthen your fingers much, getting an even tone on that is going to be very different than on an acoustic piano.

If you want to learn chord improvisation, a two octave keyboard might be a good starting point though. The jazz pianist George Shearing used to play very effective harmonies within two octaves. I suppose it encouraged good voice-leading between chords. You could learn lots of chord progressions within two octaves until you get a new keyboard. If it's got full-size keys, at least you could be learning to play chords with relaxed fingering.

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Great response. It is undoubtedly important to learn scales, particularly for understanding theory and technique. However, for practical purposes you should mix things up a bit. As a jazz pianist, I improvise a lot, and I find practicing a mixture of arpeggios, patterns and scales very useful. I almost never sit down at the piano and play all 12 major scales as a warm up.

Also, you will need to get a new keyboard at some point

Have fun practicing!

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Seems like a logical approach.
Master Major/Minor...
Then get into Modes.. Dorian, Mixolydian, etc.

Also... learn CHORDS... this will be a big help.

Quote Neon Dark:

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Thanks for the reply
Didn't play all the major scales through the cycle of 5ths but chromatically , will take the cycle of 5ths approach , tonight C+Amin /easy

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As it turns out, most keyboard players prefer keys with a few flats which lie under the hand far more naturally than keys with fewer.

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Daniel Davis
Edinburgh Recording Studio Windmill Sound

Quote Josif A. Soterίou:

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What you need to learn depends on what you want to do with it. There are players who just play pieces of music, and rarely do any other practice. Music itself contains scales, arpeggios, chords, etc, in the right proportion, but you could also just learn pieces (more enjoyable!) and then maybe do a bit of analysis of the music. That is, practice the underlying scales and arpeggios in the pieces.

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That's true, but also consider that learning scales on a keyboard is about developing fingering and dexterity more than learning notes. If you can play scales and arpeggios fluently you can apply that fluency to any piece. The idiosyncracies you pick up in one piece may not be so applicable to all pieces. Most pros consider scales dull but necessary - a bit like gym work for the athlete.

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Daniel Davis
Edinburgh Recording Studio Windmill Sound

Quote Daniel Davis:

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As it turns out, most keyboard players prefer keys with a few flats which lie under the hand far more naturally than keys with fewer.

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Aaah, if only 6-6 keyboards were the norm. All keys neutralised, all patterns the same, all chords the same. What a wrong-turn history did make. But Xylophones in 7-5 too? That's just bonkers!

Quote Josif A. Soterίou:

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Quote Daniel Davis:

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As it turns out, most keyboard players prefer keys with a few flats which lie under the hand far more naturally than keys with fewer.

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Aaah, if only 6-6 keyboards were the norm. All keys neutralised, all patterns the same, all chords the same. What a wrong-turn history did make. But Xylophones in 7-5 too? That's just bonkers!

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one of several virtues of the fretted instruments: no white key/black dichotomy. and, for those so inclined by pursuit of simplicity or simple laziness (i'm guilty of both in roughly equal measures) key change via a capo. brilliant! try that on a piano, hah!

cheers,

d

btw, if you really want someone to pity, try woodwind players. there's a reason why so many jazz and r n b songs were in eflat or bflat. it was not for nothing that in jazz jam sessions, when the pro's wanted to test out a newby, they'd call a std like 'cherokee' in a strange key like c# ;-)

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"Patsy had the drug tolerance of Keith Richards and the moral rectitude of Brian Jones." - Dr. Walter Bishop, "Fringe"

you simply need to read plenty of music in a bunch of keys. your eyes will learn to see the keys signatures and implied key signatures through the accidentals.

get music database for piano (and guitar):

http://theoreticalharmony.com/Home/Featured.html

You can also combine approaches.

Much depends on the chosen piece of course, but get the music you like, and then practice its principal scales (and or scales) and chords, as well as the piece itself, and you will start to develop a sense of how the piece is 'built', at a deeper level than just acquiring motor repitition of the piece...

Quote Neon Dark:

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Okay, at the moment This is my plan/learning structure

Learn F major
Then its relative natural minor D
then the Harmonic D minor (seventh note up a semitone?)
Do I have to go melodic too

repeat this with all major keys

Any learning tips , is this a correct method and is there another ,major variation /
Im practising fingering, arpeggios, and as much cresendo as my 2 octave midi keyboard will alow

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You've chosen to start with a scale that has irregular fingering. I suggest you first learn B major in the right hand. The black notes make it impossible to finger incorrectly - they force you into 123 12345 (or turning over to 1 again for another octave). Get it fluent, smooth and (eventually) fast. This is all about finger dexterity. F# major is another good one, which forces you into consistent fingering. You'll never be able to play a "tricky bit" if you do a different fingering each attempt!

There's lots more. If you really want to play you'll need a better keyboard and a few lessons.

Quote dubbmann:

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it was not for nothing that in jazz jam sessions, when the pro's wanted to test out a newby, they'd call a std like 'cherokee' in a strange key like c# ;-)

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But that's only two flats on an alto sax!

Playing remote keys on reeds is not as hard as they make out. You just have to build up some strength in your little fingers for sax. Bottom Bb to B (written) tends to be difficult because the keys are heavy. Otherwise it is just a matter of familiarity.

However, the note just below the octave shift on sax and clarinet is weak. Clarinettists work hard on playing through this area (called the "break") with good tone. On a clarinet the worst note is A# (written ) while A is little better. On sax it is a written C# in the middle of the range but it is less of a problem on sax.

Plus, depending on the sax, you can put most of the right hand fingers down that you'd use for the D a semitone higher and get a more stable note. Some saxes go a bit flat when you do this, so it depends on the instrument and your embouchure as to whether it's usable. For C# - D trills it's worth knowing.

Playing in C# on Eb saxes isn't so hard, with the proviso already mentioned on the bottom notes (especially on Bari!). If you keep the G# key down with your left little finger most of the notes come out about right and the fingerings you need for a C# scale are not too bad on top of that. But, also as advised, familiarity is all. If you scream and run off to do something else when you come across 'difficult' key signatures, you'll never learn.

Also, some people 'simplify' accidentals or notes in remote keys - e.g. Bb for A#, which I hate! I can quite easily convert A# to the correct fingering in my head and having the 'proper' note names helps you to work out what's going on.

MInd you, I played a wind band piece on bari the other week which finished in E, so I had fast semiquaver runs for several bars in C# to cope with. I can't guarantee I got all of them exactly right!

As for playing chords... is it always worth trying to stick to the correct finger placement? I find my fingers falling into more comfortable positions. For example C Major (right hand) uses thumb, middle finger and little finger, but after a bit of playing I tend to find I drift to thumb, index finger and little finger.

Will I find it detrimental when my playing gets better/quicker and I've got into the habit of playing comfortably, now?

Thanks.

Quote Dilithium:

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As for playing chords... is it always worth trying to stick to the correct finger placement? I find my fingers falling into more comfortable positions. For example C Major (right hand) uses thumb, middle finger and little finger, but after a bit of playing I tend to find I drift to thumb, index finger and little finger.

Will I find it detrimental when my playing gets better/quicker and I've got into the habit of playing comfortably, now?

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Fingering isn't static. It's about setting yourself up for where you want to go next. What if after playing the C triad, the melody needed a D? What if the next note was the C above? 1,3,5 for the C chord would facilitate the first one, 1,2,3 might be better for the second.

Whatever you decide, don't "tend to drift"! Be in control.

It is very useful to be able to use both sides of your hands more or less independently. Its one of the main features of James Booker's left hand technique, for example and in a lot of R&B the key to a passage is playing it in one position. Because R&B players were not always classically trained (though Booker was) they often don't have an effective thumb turn and they are much more willing to slide fingers from black keys to white ones - something that is fairly rare in classical music, although it seems clear that Chopin occasionally did it.

So, anyway, using the entire hand to play a triad is not always conducive to playing the rest of the passage fluidly.

Quote Neon Dark:

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good tip to think of it all while not at a piano keyboards TTTSTTS?

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If you want to get into the A B C's of music maybe doing some self study of harmony would help. Pick up a used copy of Piston's book and do 30 min each day. I guarantee you will learn how to think of scales and music in abstract ways while away from the piano. Do the exercises at the end of each chapter and in the back of the book.

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