The time has come to give up my collection of CAD drum mics (although I may keep the overheads for now, they're nice) and get some nicer mics. I have several bands that I'm working with now and I'm trying to get the best sound that I can for a cheap price. I already have 2 SM58's (soon to be 3), a few EV Cobalt vocal mics, 4 SM57's (soon to be 5-6), and the CAD mic kit. Here's my plans to purchase for the rest...

Kick/Bass: e602 ($159)
Guitars: e609 ($109)
Toms: e604 ($139)

I'm stuck on what to use for the snare, although I have had good luck with SM57's before. Didn't know if there was a nice clip-on solution that would work. I'll eventually be purchasing a nicer set of condensers for overheads, but for the time being the CAD overheads work fine.

Suggestions? Budget is key here, but I do want something nice, as I will be doing live recording via my Presonus very soon.

Another question: what's the easiest way to combat feedback? It seems like the SM58's are a lot more susceptible to feedback than my EV Co7 vocal mics. Can anyone explain this to me? I like the sound of the 58's (as everyone does) but they seem so much harder to deal with.

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Ice Cold Entertainment DJ/Live Sound Services Ashland, KY, USA
Coming Soon: Presonus 32.4.2AI, QSC KW153/KW181 FOH, EV ELX Foldback

Sounds like a good solution to me re the new mics. However, if you're not using all 5/6 57s, i'd save the money from the 609s and use the 57s on gtr cabs. Also, you mention using a 57 on snare, if you don't want to use a stand, just buy a rim clip and stick the 57 on it. Placement with decent ones isn't usually a problem.

What would you say is wrong with your cad set that you want to improve? perhaps replace and upgrade one mic at a time if budget is the huge issue? If you go that route, i'd start with the kick drum - usually the weakest point in these mic sets (i've found). The e602, Shure Beta52a, Audix D6 are all worth a pop - see which one you like best.

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www.sda-audio.co.uk

Can't fault your Sennheiser choices. I have used a 604 for snare bottom before, but prefer an SM57 on a short stand to be honest, with a beta 57 for the top.

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Gear List: reverse only.

Quote Mike Sullivan:

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I'm stuck on what to use for the snare, although I have had good luck with SM57's before. Didn't know if there was a nice clip-on solution that would work.

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Nothing wrong with a 57 in that application. I use the Audix kit which is pretty good - all the mics come with sturdy clips; the i5 works well on snare too. You can also buy mountings that will attach to the drum rims and to which a standard mic clip will screw.

Quote Mike Sullivan:

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Another question: what's the easiest way to combat feedback? It seems like the SM58's are a lot more susceptible to feedback than my EV Co7 vocal mics. Can anyone explain this to me? I like the sound of the 58's (as everyone does) but they seem so much harder to deal with.

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I don't think everyone does like the sound of 58s... They were designed at a time when PAs were pretty low quality so the mic was voiced to help vocals cut through the sound of the rest of the band. Things have moved on a lot now in PA world; through a good system, a 58 can sound pretty harsh compared to other more recent offerings.

Consider what causes feedback - it happens when the loop gain (mic->mixer->amp->speaker->air->mic) is greater than 1 at a particular frequency. If the mic has a big presence peak at, say, 6kHz, and the speaker also has a bit of a boost at 6kHz, that's the frequency that's going to feedback. Better (often more expensive) equipment tends to have a flatter frequency response and so is less prone to feedback than more budget kit which can have significant dips and spikes in its response. When using really good kit, it's very difficult to make things feed back - you can point a mic right at a wedge and not have any issues. Looking at the spec sheets, the Co7 has a much smoother response than the 58, hence it's more resistant to feedback.

Study the polar patterns of your mics and speakers and use that knowledge. For example, make sure the rear nulls in the vocal mics are pointing at the wedges and that the FoH speakers are aimed fully at the audience and not spilling on to the walls and ceiling.

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There's nothing we can't face... Except for bunnies

I'm not a big fan of the Sennheiser guitar mics so I'd go along with the suggestion to use the 57's on guitar. I would also suggest that you try a 604 on the snare but I would mount it on a short stand rather than use a clip as I can never quite get the position right with the Sennheiser clips.

The normal SM58's have a wider polar pattern than many modern mics but they have a null right behind them if I remember rightly. So you need to place the monitor behind and in line with the mic axis. Other mics with narrower patterns tend to have lobe directly behind them so you should place 2 monitors at around 140 degrees to the mic axis for best feedback rejection.

James.

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JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

You're miking drums and guitar and getting feedback on vocals? Could it be that the sound is too loud for the vocals?

I doubt that your mics are the problem. You have a nice selection.

You can easily get better sounds by drum-tuning, drummer-tuning (really!), mic-positioning, subtractive EQ and mixing techniques ... rather than 'better' mics. I kid you not.

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PA stuff on FB

I really wish I could multi-quote on here, lol.

Quote Stef Andrews:

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Sounds like a good solution to me re the new mics. However, if you're not using all 5/6 57s, i'd save the money from the 609s and use the 57s on gtr cabs. Also, you mention using a 57 on snare, if you don't want to use a stand, just buy a rim clip and stick the 57 on it. Placement with decent ones isn't usually a problem.

What would you say is wrong with your cad set that you want to improve? perhaps replace and upgrade one mic at a time if budget is the huge issue? If you go that route, i'd start with the kick drum - usually the weakest point in these mic sets (i've found). The e602, Shure Beta52a, Audix D6 are all worth a pop - see which one you like best.

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The kick drum, for sure. No matter how much I tweaked and mixed, you couldn't hear it at all. I've needed better bass mics anyways, and I've liked using the e602 in the kick when I was at school, so I was thinking picking two up, one for kick & one for bass.

Quote Mike Sullivan:

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Another question: what's the easiest way to combat feedback? It seems like the SM58's are a lot more susceptible to feedback than my EV Co7 vocal mics. Can anyone explain this to me? I like the sound of the 58's (as everyone does) but they seem so much harder to deal with.

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I don't think everyone does like the sound of 58s... They were designed at a time when PAs were pretty low quality so the mic was voiced to help vocals cut through the sound of the rest of the band. Things have moved on a lot now in PA world; through a good system, a 58 can sound pretty harsh compared to other more recent offerings.

Consider what causes feedback - it happens when the loop gain (mic->mixer->amp->speaker->air->mic) is greater than 1 at a particular frequency. If the mic has a big presence peak at, say, 6kHz, and the speaker also has a bit of a boost at 6kHz, that's the frequency that's going to feedback. Better (often more expensive) equipment tends to have a flatter frequency response and so is less prone to feedback than more budget kit which can have significant dips and spikes in its response. When using really good kit, it's very difficult to make things feed back - you can point a mic right at a wedge and not have any issues. Looking at the spec sheets, the Co7 has a much smoother response than the 58, hence it's more resistant to feedback.

Study the polar patterns of your mics and speakers and use that knowledge. For example, make sure the rear nulls in the vocal mics are pointing at the wedges and that the FoH speakers are aimed fully at the audience and not spilling on to the walls and ceiling.

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Yeah, we tried to aim FOH the best we could. The bar is about 50ft x 35ft main bar area (bar around the center) with a 40ft x 20ft "addon" where the band was. Speakers were out in the main bar area pointed at the bar so there was as little reflection back off the walls as possible. I think it may have just been a mic positioning problem. This was the first show with the band, so we're going to meet up sometime when they practice & play with mic positioning and such.

Quote James Perrett:

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I'm not a big fan of the Sennheiser guitar mics so I'd go along with the suggestion to use the 57's on guitar. I would also suggest that you try a 604 on the snare but I would mount it on a short stand rather than use a clip as I can never quite get the position right with the Sennheiser clips.

The normal SM58's have a wider polar pattern than many modern mics but they have a null right behind them if I remember rightly. So you need to place the monitor behind and in line with the mic axis. Other mics with narrower patterns tend to have lobe directly behind them so you should place 2 monitors at around 140 degrees to the mic axis for best feedback rejection.

James.

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I think it may have been a positioning problem. I was more focused on bringing the vocals into balance, plus a bad cable on one of the lead guitar's. We're going to meet up and work with it sometime and see what we can come up with. It's a work in progress, and I'm still learning.

As far as the drums, the clip-on mics actually aren't bad. The snare sounded really nice (could just be the snare itself), and the toms sounded good once I got them into balance. Still slowly working on perfecting my techniques. Of course, the band had a "roadie" (the bassist's son) and he wanted to help out. Needless to say things were messy for a little bit.

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Ice Cold Entertainment DJ/Live Sound Services Ashland, KY, USA
Coming Soon: Presonus 32.4.2AI, QSC KW153/KW181 FOH, EV ELX Foldback

I use an e602 II on kick, it usually works out great! I also have an SM91 to put inside if I need to, but I usually don't.

I use e604's all around for toms and snare

SM57's on guitars
58's on vocals

Rarely have any issues, lots of compliments in fact. I'm going to pick up a pair of e609's just for a bit of variety on guitar, more than anything.

Quote robare99:

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I use an e602 II on kick, it usually works out great! I also have an SM91 to put inside if I need to, but I usually don't.

I use e604's all around for toms and snare

SM57's on guitars
58's on vocals

Rarely have any issues, lots of compliments in fact. I'm going to pick up a pair of e609's just for a bit of variety on guitar, more than anything.

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Sounds about what I'm doing. I'd really like to do a comparison between Shure's wireless microphones & the Line6, because these cheap mic cables are a ***** to deal with. I've heard good about both.

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Ice Cold Entertainment DJ/Live Sound Services Ashland, KY, USA
Coming Soon: Presonus 32.4.2AI, QSC KW153/KW181 FOH, EV ELX Foldback

The answer to that is to get better mic cables, not to go wireless unless wireless is the only way to skin the cat....

Radio mics are an order of magnitude more of a pain in the arse then wired mics.

Regards, Dan.

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Audiophiles use phono leads because they are unbalanced people!

+1 for the e602 as a bass guitar cab mic.

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Gear List: reverse only.

Quote dmills:

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The answer to that is to get better mic cables, not to go wireless unless wireless is the only way to skin the cat....

Radio mics are an order of magnitude more of a pain in the arse then wired mics.

Regards, Dan.

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Indeedy!

Indeedy-Madoodly-Badoodly! ... ×∞

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PA stuff on FB

Wireless...smiless...fnar!

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My head hurts!

You guys make me worry sometimes, LOL. I do appreicate the help though, I know wireless microphones have had their low points, and I will be sticking to wired when possible, but there are a couple bands that have taken interest in renting wireless units for their rig at certain shows. (Some have them already, and sound better than most cabled rigs). It's just a matter of personal choice.

Hell, it would be nice if there was a stable enough system that would allow me to do main & foldback sends wirelessly. Can't wait for that day, lol.

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Ice Cold Entertainment DJ/Live Sound Services Ashland, KY, USA
Coming Soon: Presonus 32.4.2AI, QSC KW153/KW181 FOH, EV ELX Foldback

Quote Mike Sullivan:

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Hell, it would be nice if there was a stable enough system that would allow me to do main & foldback sends wirelessly. Can't wait for that day, lol.

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There was... it was called the Carlsbro Liberty. Great piece of reliable kit and I had one - but I think I was the only one who did! No longer available....

LD systems now do something similar, but receivers are battery-powered. No idea about quality.

As to your other comments about radio systems... I imagine that all of us who have commented negatively speak from bitter experience. However careful the set-up and testing, I always feel like I'm playing Russian Roulette when using radio mics live - the bullet fires all too often IME.

Quote Mike Stranks:

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Quote Mike Sullivan:

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Hell, it would be nice if there was a stable enough system that would allow me to do main & foldback sends wirelessly. Can't wait for that day, lol.

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There was... it was called the Carlsbro Liberty. Great piece of reliable kit and I had one - but I think I was the only one who did! No longer available....

LD systems now do something similar, but receivers are battery-powered. No idea about quality.

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There are other systems out there that are exceedingly high quality. However...

@Mike Sullivan

Speaking as someone that has coordinated a LOT of wireless, you are opening a much larger can of worms that you ever thought you would at this point. There are many reasons to avoid wireless, and the technical ones are a small part of that, and are very numerous in themselves. Are you even aware of the legalities of using wireless in the US at the moment? I can tell you it isn't nearly as simple as you would think.

Seablade

Quote Mike Sullivan:

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You guys make me worry sometimes, LOL. I do appreicate the help though, I know wireless microphones have had their low points, and I will be sticking to wired when possible, but there are a couple bands that have taken interest in renting wireless units for their rig at certain shows. (Some have them already, and sound better than most cabled rigs). It's just a matter of personal choice.

Hell, it would be nice if there was a stable enough system that would allow me to do main & foldback sends wirelessly. Can't wait for that day, lol.

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If a wireless mic sounds better than an equivalent wired one it's presumably because of the compression built in to the system. Otherwise, it's difficult to see how MORE information could be coming down a wireless link than a wired one.

I'm interested in your complaint that you sometimes can't hear the bass drum at all. Have you tried turning everything else down? This may seem unbelievable, but I see a surprising number of inexperienced engineers work on the basis of getting one element as loud as it WILL go, then trying to balance everything up to it!

It's really not about merely getting everything as loud as possible you know! Turn it all down a bit, your feedback problems on the vocals will probably go away too.

Quote Exalted Wombat:

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If a wireless mic sounds better than an equivalent wired one it's presumably because of the compression built in to the system. Otherwise, it's difficult to see how MORE information could be coming down a wireless link than a wired one.

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It is actually a compansion system in every wireless mic I can think of, not just compression, and yes it does affect the sound and I can't think of anyone that would describe it as 'in a good way'. So your point is even more appropriate.

Seablade

Quote Mike Sullivan:

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You guys make me worry sometimes, LOL. I do appreicate the help though, I know wireless microphones have had their low points, and I will be sticking to wired when possible, but there are a couple bands that have taken interest in renting wireless units for their rig at certain shows. (Some have them already, and sound better than most cabled rigs). It's just a matter of personal choice.

Hell, it would be nice if there was a stable enough system that would allow me to do main & foldback sends wirelessly. Can't wait for that day, lol.

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I picked up a Line 6 XD-V70. I l've only used it a couple times but I like it. I rented a second one, for the one particular metal band with 2 singers. They are up & down and all over the place. At the end of their set, the mic cords were all twisted to hell, so the wireless mics make so much more sense. I rent a second one when they play. I'm waiting until I can get an XD-V75 which will let me update the V70.