Hi folks - it may just be that I'm in a period of re-adjustment/rehab, but I'd like any ideas/suggestions/examples from your own experiences.

For last year, been in a 5piece (drums, bass, guitar, piano/hammond, female vox) doing covers (Hallelujah, FreeFalling, Somewhere only we know, let it be etc). Drummer & guitarist have commitment issues so we've split. I'm intending to carry on "unplugged" as it were with the vocalist. I'm piano/hammond and know my way around Reaper with the home studio where I did my music before the band took over, so could do some backing tracks (but I have a slight "not really playing live" issue with too much of that, although it may have its place).

Only looking at small venues, so reckon my LD Dave G12 that I used for keys monitoring can handle that instead of the mahoosive PA. Mics (SM58s) and the keys signal chain up to where it hit the band's Studioline mixer are all the same as before. I have a Xenyx 1002FX which did for my keys sub mix (main outs DI-ed to the Studioline, CtrlRm to my G12 as monitors), and am intending to use the 2 mic inputs on this for the vocals.

At rehearsals in studio (to learn the new arrangements) we use this setup sending the main outs to my studio monitors (Fostex PM0.4s instead of killing the neighbours with the G12). For gigs, we'd take the main outs to the G12, and possibly find some other powered amp for stage monitor from the CtrlRm outs.

My crisis of confidence is that rehearsal in my studio just sounds very "thin" with just vox and keys and I'm worried about how it's going to sound at our first (duo) gig. I've dialled in some parallel compression on the vocals (mixer is too basic to have it as an insert) and also some reverb on the uncompressed channel.

I may be answering my own question by typing this: get a big rehearsal space and try with full kit and then see, as there's only so much you can do on studio monitors which are supposed to make everything crisp!

But are there any other standard tricks to thickening things up a bit so that there's more guts to it (but without getting muddy)? Or a change to the setup (ideally without throwing money at it, as this may not ever work live!) If nothing else, an indication for what I should roughly be looking at for the compression and reverb settings - obviously to tweak at the actual venue, as clearly don't want to be flailing blind during soundcheck!

Cheers, Matt

Quote Matt_Moose:

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...could do some backing tracks (but I have a slight "not really playing live" issue with too much of that, although it may have its place)...

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I had similar reservations about this, though I recently played in a trio using some backing tracks for the first time and realised that the audience don't care. In fact I think they preferred the numbers with backing tracks. Maybe some string arrangements on some of the tracks could warm things up and help you through rehab. If you use something like Live and trigger stuff via the keyboard it might feel more integrated.

Compression is a case of what fits the vocals. Default for me is a ratio of about 2.8:1 and just enough to knock the corners off the peaks.

Reverb needs to match the room. For me, it's a case of dialling in something *slightly* more resonant than the room itself, but not by very much.

EQ on keys might help. Piano can be quite spiky and get in the way of vocals. Winding out some mids is often useful for making it take a more appropriate position in the mix. And perceptually, if there's less clamouring for attention in the midrange, it brings out the balance across the rest of the frequency range. (Hell, you might even be able to turn it up a bit more.)

But in general, the beauty of a small act is the smaller scale of it. It usually *should* feel close-up and intimate, instead of being in-yer-face. Make that work for you.

Matt, have you considered one of the vocal processors/harmonizers/loopers to flesh out some vocal parts? We've asked around, and while most performers we've talked to aren't keen on them, audience reaction says differently. (Similar to the common view of backing tracks, as we've had to adjust and realize it's not about how we musicians view using them, but how the crowd enjoys the overall performance.)

It would take a ton of gigging to pay for one of these units with what they're selling for these days however.

Rick

Quote Matt_Moose:

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So reckon my LD Dave G12 that I used for keys monitoring can handle that

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I have a G12 too, it's pretty much full range and it's exactly what I use to do the preliminary "live" mix of my backing tracks on. I regularly use it for smaller gigs too, so that's more than up to the job of providing good reference.

Quote Matt_Moose:

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My crisis of confidence is that rehearsal in my studio just sounds very "thin" with just vox and keys and I'm worried about how it's going to sound at our first (duo) gig. I've dialled in some parallel compression on the vocals (mixer is too basic to have it as an insert) and also some reverb on the uncompressed channel.

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I may be answering my own question by typing this: get a big rehearsal space and try with full kit and then see, as there's only so much you can do on studio monitors which are supposed to make everything crisp!

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When I do the initial mix of the backing tracks, in the studio, I deliberately don't mix it with a view to "How would this sound on CD?", i.e. commercial release, I mix it from the perspective that I imagine what it'd be like on a stage. I also use headphones quite a bit too, probably 90% headphones and 10% monitors, as I find that the headphones give me a more accurate mix when it comes to how the backing tracks will sound live on stage. Once I'm happy with the mix I'll run it through the G12/G15, making any small changes, and they generally are quite small/subtle, and then finally I'll run it through the big PA. Always, without exception, there'll be something that stands out on the big PA (a JBL line array) that didn't stand out on the G12. Most bizarrely, when I change the mix on the JBL, then re-reference on the G12, the G12 mix doesn't sound any different to the original mix. Odd, I know, but that happens quite a bit.

When I'm recording the backing tracks in the studio I use minimum compression, i.e. far less than you'd normally use for a commercial release, as in the back of my mind I'm trying to get the backing tracks to sound like a live band/real musicians. I think that's the key, using the least amount of EQ/compression at the recording stage. After all, you can EQ/compress when you're mixing through the PA, or you can apply compression/EQ across the masters.

I have it down to an art now, the final mix on headphones on the PC is normally not that far off the mix that I'll end up with on the JBL, all because I know what to adjust on the tracks and what not to adjust. It's trial and error I'm afraid, there are no real magic answers.

Hi all - thanks, some good thoughts there.

Quote BJG145:

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Maybe some string arrangements on some of the tracks could warm things up and help you through rehab.

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Strings/Pads - I sometimes fade these in via layered midi using a foot controller in latter stages of some songs. But I think too much might get wearing. The fun halfway house is midi sequenced stuff where the patch for the main keys "swaps" with the solo instrument - I'm thinking Heart and Alone here for a great Oberheim 80's-synth-instead-of-guitar solo then flicking back to the DX7 Rhodes to finish.

Quote BJG145:

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I recently played in a trio using some backing tracks for the first time and realised that the audience don't care. In fact I think they preferred the numbers with backing tracks.

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Yeah - worried that might be the case, hence the "fear of sounding thin"

Quote grab:

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the beauty of a small act is the smaller scale of it. It usually *should* feel close-up and intimate, instead of being in-yer-face. Make that work for you.

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Thanks for pointers on comp/eq and rev. Quite like the parallel comp as it does mean quiet vocals are up front and clear, but then the reverb makes the loud bits sing.

Quote artzmusic:

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have you considered one of the vocal processors/harmonizers/loopers to flesh out some vocal parts?

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Not if they're as much as you say they are But if that's what it takes...! Our (my?) singer is very good tho - they come to see her, not me! (There's a line from a Billy Joel song there somewhere that I might have to cover....)

Quote TheChorltonWheelie:

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I have a G12 too, I regularly use it for smaller gigs too

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Just worried the cross-over is a little too high because of the small tops, so a lot of the mids end up in the sub and so get's muddy. I've wound that volume back and it gets a lot clearer, but worried I'll lose the bottom end.

Where do you set your sub volume?

Quote TheChorltonWheelie:

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When I do the initial mix of the backing tracks, in the studio, I mix it from the perspective that I imagine what it'd be like on a stage.

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Found that already. I know how my studio monitors sound, so I'm upping the bass, but one track had a terrible string section cutting through - weird it just hit that.

Quote TheChorltonWheelie:

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I'm trying to get the backing tracks to sound like a live band/real musicians. I think that's the key, using the least amount of EQ/compression at the recording stage.

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Seem to have that right - the last gig where I tried out one of my sequenced ones with just me signing/playing, the wife only "tuned in" halfway thru saying after "I thought it was all of you playing".

Quote TheChorltonWheelie:

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or you can apply compression/EQ across the masters.

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And that's probably what I'm missing - EQ across the masters, as this was done by the big PA before as on-stage sound was only really about hearing the important bits, and not _how_ they sounded.

Quote Matt_Moose:

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Just worried the cross-over is a little too high because of the small tops, so a lot of the mids end up in the sub and so get's muddy. I've wound that volume back and it gets a lot clearer, but worried I'll lose the bottom end.

Where do you set your sub volume?

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I've never looked at the cross-over point on the LD, but I don't imagine it'd be too far off the general rule. I have tried the same mixes on the Alto Truesonic rig I use, they're fairly similar save for a tad of the top end that I roll off on the Alto's. I have the LD sub at 2/3 normally, I'm not a massive fan of too much bass.

Quote Matt_Moose:

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but one track had a terrible string section cutting through - weird it just hit that.

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That's exactly the point I was making earlier, it's often odd/bizarre sounds that create the issue when you go for the full live mix through the PA. What I'd normally do is make a note of the offending sound, for example a full range piano, modify the source piano sound so that it doesn't stand out in the live mix, and then I'd go back to my other tracks and change the piano sound to the "new" sound that sits in the mix. I have a set of 15-20 various sounds that I normally always stick to for that very reason, they sit well in the mix. Using that method also makes the backing tracks sound more realistic in that they sound like the same musicians/band.

Quote Matt_Moose:

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the wife only "tuned in" halfway thru saying after "I thought it was all of you playing".

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You're not far off then: I generally ignore what most musicians say about backing tracks, they sound flat etc, etc, as my audiences are normally made up of 99.99% punters, 0.01% musicians that think they can do it/play it better. I always appeal to the masses.

Quote Matt_Moose:

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And that's probably what I'm missing - EQ across the masters, as this was done by the big PA before as on-stage sound was only really about hearing the important bits, and not _how_ they sounded.

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Use the force wisely, it's too easy to rely on over-EQ on the masters, rather than attending to the source issues, and that becomes a problem when you change venues. Not only are you having to ring/EQ the new venue, but, you're also going to have to do the same on your tracks again.

Quote TheChorltonWheelie:

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I have the LD sub at 2/3 normally, I'm not a massive fan of too much bass.

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Hmm - I had it around 1/2 and had to wind it back. May have been the floor I last checked it on was a wooden/sprung hall one, so might have been getting some "boom" going on. I think x-over is about 150Hz.

Quote TheChorltonWheelie:

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I have a set of 15-20 various sounds that I normally always stick to for that very reason, they sit well in the mix. Using that method also makes the backing tracks sound more realistic in that they sound like the same musicians/band.

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True - with all the patches available, it's possible to forget that a 5piece is only variations around those 5 core sounds. What is entirely possible to get carried away by is _trying_ to use lots of different patches just to sound different - but this is a live band, not a studio album.

Quote TheChorltonWheelie:

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You're not far off then - I always appeal to the masses.

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Ah - but I didn't say if my wife was musical or not!

Quote TheChorltonWheelie:

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Use the force wisely, it's too easy to rely on over-EQ on the masters, rather than attending to the source issues

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Oh, I think you're right about addressing the source tracks, and knowing what the reference is that you're aiming for. But because I know what the tracks can sound like, I think I'd feel happier about having the safety net to tweak the EQ on the masters for any problem venues.

Also if I'm basically the SE too, and I've got a good reference track, then it makes it much easier for me sound check FoH without actually needing to play. This has been a bug-bear of mine for the last 12months, that it's always been another band member (usually bassist, or drummer) who's gone FoH and said "Sound's great" - I've just had to trust them. I guess they were pretty spot on, but I never ever heard it myself.

Pedalling technique combined with a piano sound with good harmonic resonance modelling and a number of layers can make a big difference to how "thick" a piano sound you get. You need the layers so that the sound doesn't just get louder as you play harder, it also gets richer. I think it means going to a computer based softsynth for your piano sound.

A patch with an exagerated bass can help too.

On Hammond, you want to go Stereo to FOH as a Leslie sim really does not work in mono.