Hi All

I play keys, in a six piece band 80s tribute band.

We put the vocals, the drummers triggered drum brain.through the PA. The bass plays rig is 700 watts, my roland amp is 350 watts and the guitar amp 100 watts, Our pa is made up from allen heath zed 12fx mixer EV active ELX15p 1000 watts x2 and elx18p Subs 750 watts x2. Shure sm58 radio mics. I turn the speaker Amps to full power and then control the main volume with the master on the mixer.

The problems we are getting is distorted sound at some gigs, i can not stress nothing is clipping. when we play big venues 600 sq meters and larger, we are only filling the dance floor and beyond with sound, no problem. its the smaller venues.

The problem.
We played one, that was 25 x 25 meters sq, all plastered walls, stage 2ft high, come sound check (room is empty ) we got feedback problems, our singers stand in front of the speakers, because they get involved with the crowed. turn it down a little. but still sounded distorted. First set 60 to 70 people, in the room, only a few on the dance floor, still sounded distorted. come the second set, 100 to 130 people dance floor packed, sound becomes clear, we lose the guitar, half way down the room. Had a little bit off feedback during first set mainly because sing standing directly in front of speaker, none in the second half.

Any ideas whats going on ?

Could in be, we are two loud for the room, when it was empty, and the sound waves ars bouncing around to much ?

thanks
steve b

Hi Steve, If nothing is clipping, then the distortion you state is difficult to pinpoint without you going through every individual signal input/output and listening at these low levels. Is there a fault which is less noticeable when everything is turned up? It could be a cable, it could be a blown speaker, it could be a gain structure issue, but unlikely to be "bouncing waves" unless you are ridiculously loud , consistently, in every small venue...I doubt that!
Can I also suggest that the singers become more aware of their responsibilities in front of the speaker cabs...and maybe adjust your speaker placement to help their performance. Feedback is not cool and is in fact amateurish...once or twice is forgiveable but any more and it becomes an annoyance. Dave

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My head hurts!

It never hurts to devote a rehearsal to technical matters once in a while and this sounds like a good time to do it. Set up your stuff and as Turbodave says, test it one piece at a time, then start to add bits together and see how you go. Bearing in mind your backline is fairly beefy, you need to get that in scale for smaller venues and then add the vox and e-drums to get a good balance. This will probably be easier to balance if you start with vox then add backline. Have a look at the various threads here about stage levels and the best height and angle for amps on stage - this may sound like teaching granny to suck eggs, but it's amazing how easy it is to introduce what started as a temporary fix into your normal stage set-up. You might find it helps to have a different layout for the band to encourage you to look at things afresh. And even if you want to have backline running at FOH levels, you'd most likely find it works better with as much as you can get in the PA and as little as you can get away with coming from backline. Then the stage will be quieter, reducing feedback and giving the singers a chance tohear their monitors at reasonable levels.

While doing all this you have a good chance of identifying something that's amiss and contributing to the 'distortion' issue, and if you don't, you should be able to arrive at a decent setup that works in a smaller venue. Pay special attention to vocal mics and monitoring - try to use the minimum level and be very careful about positioning and being sure you know whether each mike is cardioid or hypercardioid, as that affect monitor placement significantly.

Start with flat eq and try to fix any problems with cuts rather than boosts - all this stuff is all over this site and the web generally - and make sure the monitors aren't putting out peaks that are contributing to feedback. I usually cut quite a bit of the bottom end and a little of the top end from the monitors and keep the rest pretty flat, but that might or might not work for you. In other words, avoid the 'smiley face' eq and trust your ears.

The likely outcome if you completely rejig your sound item by item is that you will have a quieter stage, but not by much as your backline is such a big part of the FOH sound. Ideally, you want to have as little backline as you can and put the rest through the PA - you should be able to put all the band through the kit you have for smaller venues. Obviously you'll need to hear what you're doing so you'll need monitors or something on the backline for the players to hear themselves. But if you're getting big feedback problems you have to tackle all this somehow so the vocal monitors can be audible at lower levels. More in FOH means it's in front of the stage and while it can bounce of the walls and come back to bite you, it's still a better game plan than having all those amps on stage firing into the vocal mikes.

I can tell you from experience, those EV's do not like being "all the way up". Set the main amp dial to around 1:00 to 3:00, and the channel input to unity (about 3:00). Check all your gains to reduce distortion. If you have room, it probably wouldn't hurt to throw a compressor in your rack on your most dynamic vocalists to compress the signal down slightly.

Feedback, it can be a combination of EQ and gain structure. If your gains are too hot, there's going to be more signal coming into the board. As I said before, compression/gating helps with those types of signals if you can set it up right.

P.S. Good choice on the EV's.

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Ice Cold Entertainment DJ/Live Sound Services Ashland, KY, USA
Coming Soon: Presonus 32.4.2AI, QSC KW153/KW181 FOH, EV ELX Foldback

Hi Dave

Thanks for the advice, reference to a faulty cable problem. i have a Behringer ct100 cable tester. this shows which pins are connected to where, not the resistance in a cable, could a cable show it has all the pins connected and no broken wires inside the cable, but has a fault, that could cause a problem.

thanks
steve b

Thanks Mike

Thanks for the advice, will try the levels on the EV's.

thanks
Steve B

Quote back2skool:

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Hi Dave

Thanks for the advice, reference to a faulty cable problem. i have a Behringer ct100 cable tester. this shows which pins are connected to where, not the resistance in a cable, could a cable show it has all the pins connected and no broken wires inside the cable, but has a fault, that could cause a problem.

thanks
steve b

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Unlikely, You have wire, shielding and outer skin...check visually for any issues on the outside , but a cable tester should throw up most issues internally. You may have more problem with the tester though..they aren't the best! Dave

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My head hurts!

Hi Tacltus

Thanks for the advice, the rehearsal sound a really good idea, especially in a empty venue, not a small rehearsal room, its hard to think when you have a problem at a gig, with all the adrenaline of setting the PA, lights instruments and nerves.

Will do my home work on the forum

Thanks
Steve B