Hi,

I've been reading this months SOS article about stage capacitor mics and I'm looking to buy another Sennheiser E935 and after reading the article I'm considering maybe trying one of the cheaper capacitor mics?

I did a quick search on these and was surprised to find how cheap these mics are. Some of them were marked as £199 in the SOS article but after searching around I could buy one for £79!
I could possibly stretch to £200 . Because of this I'm considering :-

Sontronics STC6 £59
SE Electronics H1 £79
AKG C5 £112
Samson CL5 £120
Rode S1 £186

Does anyone know how either of these compare to the Sennheiser E935? Any ideas on how any of these mics compare with spill and feedback rejection?

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www.richardpenrose.com

From Paul White's review of the Sontronics STC-6 in "Performing Musician":

"Tests with the STC-6 — first with no filters or pads in place — showed it to have a well-balanced tone with plenty of low end, as well as a more airy high end, and the output was noticeably higher than from the STC-80. However, the impressive low end of the STC-6 microphone also meant that vocal popping was a real problem, so I switched in the 75Hz low-cut filter. This fixed the popping, but it left the mic with a noticeably bass-light sound.
For comparative purposes, I hooked up an old LD1011 back-electret vocal mic, which cost around half of what the STC-6 does, and it had almost as much low-end vocal warmth as the STC-6 without its filter switched in, yet it remained resistant to popping, making it a more practical choice for most singers. Potentially then, the STC-6 is a very good microphone, but the tonal changes imparted by the low-cut filter, which is necessary to avoid popping, do compromise the tone to a noticeable degree."

I considered; I read; I moved on...

I can't speak about any of the others you mention. 'grab' (well-known poster of this parish) and I both have a soft-spot for the Audio-Technica stage condensers...

Hi Mike,

Thanks for the reply. I've been having a quick read up on some of these condensers and am unsure if it would be a good idea to go for a condenser or not!?

On the Sontronics website they quote the self noise of the STC-6 as 14db but in the reviews I've read they say it's 24db?

Also, I'm not sure how the noise performance/output will compare to the E935? The SE H1 has a self noise of 18db and a sensitivity of 2 mV/Pa but I'm not sure of the E935's self noise? Also it would appear that the E935 has a higher sensitivity 2,8mV/Pa but I'm not sure how this will affect the amount of gain needed as the SE H1 is phantom powered!?

Some of the other mics have a higher self noise such as the AKG C5 - 25db-a but also has a higher sensitivity 4 mV/Pa. Would this mean that at the same gain setting as the SE H1 the C5 will be noisier but louder?

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www.richardpenrose.com

First up, self noise is unlikely to ever be an issue with a stage vocal mic.

The decision to go with a condenser on stage instead of a dynamic, or any particular microphone choice for that matter, is related to what you're trying to achieve; what are the on stage levels like? How much feedback rejection is necessary? What are the voices like?

Here's a few examples of where I'd use different mics:

Concert situation, female vocal, reasonable levels of foldback, few bleed issues: Neumann KM105, Electrovoice RE510/RE410, N/D767, or Senny e845 [e965, KSM9]

Concert situation, band with drums, female/male vocals, medium levels of foldback/bleed issues: e935, e840, e845, maybe RE510 (if they work it close), SM58 (if they want nasty vocals or are swinging the mic on its cable) [Beta58, Beta57]

Concert/band situation, high levels of foldback/bleed: Audix OM7, EV N/D967

If feedback and bleed are issues you can't go past the Audix OM7, it eats anything else, but must be worked close.

I've only talked about mics I own [or have used in these brackets].

Bob

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www.bickerton.co.nz

I have a Peavey CM1, an LD1011, and two Audiotechnica AE3300s. (One was sold as an AE5400 on eBay, but on opening it up, it's physically identical to the AE3300. Which didn't bother me, since I like the AE3300. None of them have great feedback rejection. If the stage level is low-to-middling, you'll be OK. High stage levels, forget it.

The AE3300s, they reproduce what they hear, no more and no less. If your voice cuts through naturally, or if it's something like a solo singer and guitar, then they're wonderful. If you need a bit of help to cut through a full band though, something else would be better. The Peavey and LD are not great mics, but I (and my band) prefer them to yer basic SM58 or similar. For an example, we've just had a flip-flop of singers, where our first singer stepped back for a bit, we got someone else, then she got work on a tour and the first one is back in again. The first-and-current singer uses the CM1 because the high-mid peak helps her voice cut through, even though it's not nearly as good a mic. The second singer is a trained stage performer, so she used an AE3300 because her voice didn't need any help.

I don't have enough experience on a wide range of mics (specifically the ones you mention) to say how they compare, though.

Edit: Just saw Bob's posted, so my comments are probably superfluous next to his.

Quote grab:

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Edit: Just saw Bob's posted, so my comments are probably superfluous next to his.

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All grist to the mill Grab! I can only comment on what I've used and I haven't used Audio Technical stuff, but it sounds like AT make some mighty stage mics, so all comments are useful.

There's also Heil, but I can't comment as I haven't used them. Good by all accounts.

Bob

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www.bickerton.co.nz

Thanks for the help again guys.

I am looking for decent versatile live mics that sound and perform great. I play in a 5 piece band:-

2x female mezzo soprano gospel vocalists
1 male tenor vocalist (who is also the bass player)
1 male tenor vocalist who is also the drummer
Keys

With this band we play in a wide variety of venues such as ballrooms, hotels, marquees and a couple of beach bars.

Sometimes we have to cram into tiny spaces and the vocalists are sometimes right in front of the drums. We are using a Sennheiser E935 on the lead female vocalist and this has been a clear improvement to the SM58 and beta 58. This mic has pretty good feedback rejection yet sounds clearer and smoother than the Shure mics.
Our other female vocalist is using a Shure SM58 at the moment which is ok but dull compared to the E935. The bass player is using an AKG dynamic mic but can't remember what. This mic can sound quite honky. The drummer is using an SM57.

I have tried the Audix OM6 and really liked that mic but preferred the tone of the E935 on our vocalists voice. Don't know how the OM7 sounds compared to the OM6?

I also use my pa to do sound for other people on occasions so something versatile would be good. I have been really impressed with the sound of the E935 compared to any other live mic I've tried so far but I still find I have to boost the top end a little on this mic and also have to use a lot of gain.

So what I would really like is something that has a little more top end without sounding thin and harsh with a higher output, as good or better feedback rejection and be as quiet (noise) or better than the E935?

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www.richardpenrose.com

In my experience there is no magic bullet, which is why I'm always a potential sucker for a new vocal mic!

I have about six different vocal mics - some dynamic, some condenser. Exhibit 'A' that sounds great with Voice 'A' will just not hit the spot with Voice 'B' - and that's about much more than male/female voices. Because I work with several individuals/groups the versatility I need comes from the selection of mics I have.

I've found I have to get to know the characteristics of my mics as well as I can in order to match mics and voices... and it's quite common for me to swap mics during soundcheck if the voice/mic combination isn't doing the biz.

(... and I'd agree with grab's assessment of the AT condensers - and I'd say the same about their dynamics I've used. Great for acoustic-type sets and souly stuff, but not for rock on busy, loud stages.)

I've used the Samson CL5, the SE H1, the Sontronics STC6 and the AKG C5. I probably prefer the C5 (its dynamic cousin, the D5, is also very good, especially for the price). The Samson and Sontronics ones are also very good (IIRC the Samson is slightly brighter, and the Sontronics feels slightly better built). All three of those are quite neutral sounding, and if you've not used a condenser for live vocals before you might just find that one of these is a revelation! The extra clarity and definition compared with a 58 can be a godsend, especially if you're using a crap system or you're in a muddy-sounding room.

The H1 is rather bright and also (as far as I can tell) more sensitive than the others I've used, which can lead to HF ringing if there's a wall close behind the performer. For female vocals, however, especially quite breathy singers, it can be absolutely brilliant, so I'd probably recommend that to a girl singer who wanted her own mic to take from gig to gig.

Oh, and as I said in the article, keep your old dynamics! Having a different type of vocal mic on each singer (where you're dealing with more than one in a band) really does help when you're trying to make vocalists sound distinct from each other (something I tend to have to work at a bit when everyone on stage is singing through an SM58).

Cheers!

Chris

Hi Chris,

Do you have any idea how any of these mics compare to the E935 regarding self noise and feedback rejection?

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www.richardpenrose.com

Anyone know anything about the Blue Encore 300?

Also, as for Audio Technica mics the AE5400 looks like a good potential but a little out of my budget.

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www.richardpenrose.com

A big 10-4 (it's how they used to say +1 in the olden days) to Bob's suggestion of EV re410 but I wouldn't restrict it to female vocal (not that I'm suggesting you are, Mr B.) I've used mine on certain male voices, the ones that know how to keep a respectable distance but like to express their inner Beyonce and complex textured sounds, accordion in particular.

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Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

Quote dickiefunk:

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So what I would really like is something that has a little more top end without sounding thin and harsh with a higher output, as good or better feedback rejection and be as quiet (noise) or better than the E935?

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From what you've said I'd be thinking EV N/D767 or RE410, with the 767 having slightly more feedback rejection. But what Mike says is absolutely true, it is a question of matching the mic to the voice. I haven't tried the OM6 so can't compare to the OM7, but they probably have similar characteristics. And just to state again self noise will not be an issue.

Having said all of this, if you like the e935, why not buy another? They are great mics.......

Bob

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www.bickerton.co.nz

Thanks Bob. I hadn't heard of those EV mics but will keep on eye out for them.

The reason why I'm possibly considering upgrading the E935 is because I am needing to add some 5k eq to get the vocals to cut and am having the gain on around 2 o'clock! I would prefer to get the sound I'm after without having to eq the mic too much or boost it with as much gain.

Whilst I'm not expecting noise to be a major issue, I would like to get the best performing and sounding mic that I can afford. Whilst noise on one or two mics is not really noticeable, when you have 4+ mics it can become more noticeable so I would like to get the quietest mic whilst sounding great aswell as having a high output.

Saying that, since buying the Presonus Studiolive desk, I now realize that my old Yamaha 01V was the biggest cause of noise!

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www.richardpenrose.com

Dynamics tend not to specify noise figures because noise is inherently negligible with them. I've never had an issue with noise from stage condensers, even running 12 or more at a time, because the signal to noise ratio tends to be high - but I'm happy to be corrected on this one by some out technically literate friends!

Bob

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www.bickerton.co.nz

My experience tells me the same - SNR for miles, I've never found noise to be a problem with several capacitor mics on stage either.

I haven't had any experience with the E935 I'm afraid, so can't really compare.

Cheers!

Chris

With the sort of capacitor/condenser mics you're considering you really can forget about inherent noise. It is absolutely not going to be an issue with those - or most of their more modest brethren either.

Gain at 2 o'clock doesn't strike me as a problem on a decent desk - assuming the gain-structure is OK.

If you're adding boost at 5K with the 935 then look at mics that have a boost in this area. You could do worse than try the cheaper Samson - the C05 - already mentioned by Chris (Korff). I have a couple which I use when I need 'cut-through' but want to use a condenser.

Quote dickiefunk:

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Whilst noise on one or two mics is not really noticeable, when you have 4+ mics it can become more noticeable

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Either you are using extremely cheap electret mics that are on their last legs or you are pointing the finger at the wrong cause. With any of the microphones mentioned on this thread, noise will not be a problem - even if you have 10+ mics all open at the same time.

James.

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JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net