I not sure I am sufficiently informed to have a view on this but I'm interested to hear those of people who actually work in the business. Universal's bid for EMI is the highest profile antitrust case at DG Competition in Brussels right now. The question is would Universal/Vivendi be creating too dominant a market position in Europe if it were allowed to acquire EMI? Universal say what with piracy and the general kicking the industry has had in recent years, efficiencies in scale of operation are the only defense. Brussels are worried that if Universal were to acquire EMI they might be in a position to rig the price of CDs and downloads, and somehow be anticompetitive in how they set studio costs. Which seems a slightly daft argument but anyway, what do you guy's think?

--------------------
Strictly project and just for fun

I thought Universal already had EMI records .. and Sony had pub ..(Sony wins)

Quote blue manga:

---

I thought Universal already had EMI records .. and Sony had pub ..(Sony wins)

---

Yeah I thought that too dewd.

They do but its been referred to the competition authorities, who can make them sell things.

--------------------
Strictly project and just for fun

Quote Frisonic:

---

They do but its been referred to the competition authorities, who can make them sell things.

---

Indeed. I have a feeling, though, with the incredibly diminished value of EMI AND the huge asset sell off that it won't be an issue. EMI records have a small catalogue compared to Universal and others.

EMI publishing, however. Now THAT has value.

Well the production music labels must be worth millions. They bring in megabux.

Quote White Car Man:

---

Well the production music labels must be worth millions. They bring in megabux.

---

they are owned by the publisher, not the record label.

Point of fact, Vivendi (Universal) have contracted to buy EMI from Citigroup, deal to be closed by September. So they don't actually own it yet. As in they haven't yet paid for it (presumably, they might have handed over some of the money - not clear). That's what I'm seeing in the financial press anyway. But I must admit, the Financial Times have not mentioned any distinction (over several articles) between the production bit of EMI and the publishing bit. It is not even clear that DG Competition have gleamed this distinction! Although I'd be amazed if they hadn't. Probably just sloppy reporting by the FT. The bid in sterling is £1.2bn, considerably less than Guy Hands paid for it back in his day (or is it? If its just the production arm)?

--------------------
Strictly project and just for fun

Quote Frisonic:

---

between the production bit of EMI and the publishing bit. It is not even clear that DG Competition have gleamed this distinction!

---

There isnt a distinction. The masters are owned by the publisher.

yes indeedy .. I know it's a point aside (wasn't aware of the monopoly commissions thing - but yeh - find it a bit irrelevant - actually prices are not set so much by competition but black market, these days) - but yeh - EMI publishing - amazeballz .. EMI Records - I kind of imagine inheriting it like one would inherit a lead weight around one's ankles .. let alone paying good dollar for it .. weird ..

Quote Frisonic:

---

The bid in sterling is £1.2bn, considerably less than Guy Hands paid for it back in his day (or is it? If its just the production arm)?

---

It's not the production arm - it's the record company. Publishing end has been cleared, apparently. Dont see EMI records being a hold up....

I expect the record company will be cleared too. I just can't see any justifiable objection. Nobody here thinks there is any good reason to block it anyways, so why should DG Competition?

--------------------
Strictly project and just for fun

Quote narcoman:

---

Quote White Car Man:

---

Well the production music labels must be worth millions. They bring in megabux.

---

they are owned by the publisher, not the record label.

---

Oh thanks for pointing that out, I had absolutely no idea whatsoever.

Quote White Car Man:

---

Quote narcoman:

---

Quote White Car Man:

---

Well the production music labels must be worth millions. They bring in megabux.

---

they are owned by the publisher, not the record label.

---

Oh thanks for pointing that out, I had absolutely no idea whatsoever.

---

Like I said in my first post, I am not at all certain I am sufficiently informed to have an opinion about this myself (I've already stood corrected) which was why I asked for informed opinions. But I'm even less certain that the competition authorities are any better informed!

--------------------
Strictly project and just for fun

Quote Frisonic:

---

Quote White Car Man:

---

Quote narcoman:

---

Quote White Car Man:

---

Well the production music labels must be worth millions. They bring in megabux.

---

they are owned by the publisher, not the record label.

---

Oh thanks for pointing that out, I had absolutely no idea whatsoever.

---

Like I said in my first post, I am not at all certain I am sufficiently informed to have an opinion about this myself (I've already stood corrected) which was why I asked for informed opinions. But I'm even less certain that the competition authorities are any better informed!

---

Well, speaking for myself, I am certainly alot more enlightened now because, as I say, I had absolutely no idea that the production music labels were owned by the publisher.

I wonder if Blue Manga was aware of this?

I know nothing.

I did not say this.. I am not here ...

The money in the production labels are in the residuals which lies mostly in the publishing. A record label is a very narrow thing. They aree about the commercial exploitation of recordings at a point of sale. Production music is often adapted,edited and reworked frostems to fit in with a project. this isn't something that a label wants at a point of sale.... They're two fairly distinct areas of business and require very different business structures.

Library/production music is for things that are not artist driven and do not seek the approval of writers for use.

Quote narcoman:

---

The money in the production labels are in the residuals which lies mostly in the publishing. A record label is a very narrow thing. They aree about the commercial exploitation of recordings at a point of sale. Production music is often adapted,edited and reworked frostems to fit in with a project. this isn't something that a label wants at a point of sale.... They're two fairly distinct areas of business and require very different business structures.

Library/production music is for things that are not artist driven and do not seek the approval of writers for use.

---

Hey thanks for that, that really clarifies things. So production music and record labels are like two separate distinct entities then? And the production music is sorted by the publishing side?

I'm interested in this as I've heard there's megabux in production music (I read that some is even used in films!) and I fancy having a bash at it - friends and family say I'm good with jingles and would maybe write really good theme tunes given the chance.

Just need to find out where to send my demo to.

There isn't mega bucks in it any more than anywhere else. there IS if you own the publishing company that operates in those areas(:)) or you have a library on one of the big publishers. It's as hard an area to make work as composing for film, games or adverts. Getting noticed is very very difficult as it's a hugely oversubscribed market.

Secondly - there are very many aggressive strategies out there from sync and production companies and having a track record (the eternal catch 22) is the only real way of getting into it. Sending a demo wont work (well - it MIGHT). You'd be better off looking at promotional strategies and doing something very niche. But niche costs and therefore it's a gamble. For example - there is remarkably little interest in stuff recorded with virtual instruments so playing it for real is a good option.... welcome to the world of spending £10k !!

Quote narcoman:

---

There isn't mega bucks in it any more than anywhere else. there IS if you own the publishing company that operates in those areas(:)) or you have a library on one of the big publishers. It's as hard an area to make work as composing for film, games or adverts. Getting noticed is very very difficult as it's a hugely oversubscribed market.

Secondly - there are very many aggressive strategies out there from sync and production companies and having a track record (the eternal catch 22) is the only real way of getting into it. Sending a demo wont work (well - it MIGHT). You'd be better off looking at promotional strategies and doing something very niche. But niche costs and therefore it's a gamble. For example - there is remarkably little interest in stuff recorded with virtual instruments so playing it for real is a good option.... welcome to the world of spending £10k !!

---

Ah interesting! No I don't use stylus or anything like that. I only use real instruments - i.e East West gold and / or Omnisphere's real strings section patches - not synthetic in any way just totally 'real' (recorded in a studio in LA with top players). This way my music sounds fairly realistic. It is quite niche too - kind of minimalism with dub beats - lots of strings. Fairly contemporary I think.

I know there is quite alot of money in it though as I have a friend who makes 15k a year at it! Hence my interest. Unfortunately, he's keeping his contacts to himself ( which is understandable) so at the moment I don't know who to send the demo to but may do some googling later.

My old mate Phil tried to get me into library music back in the 80s. I was quite abusive really. I told him that it was a load of old rubbish, that it was like hanging around outside McDonald's waiting for someone to throw half a hamburger away. He told me that there would come a day when the only way to sell music would be if was tacked onto some commercial or somesuch other cornflakes.

I told him that I was a proud artist, that I would never sync so low as to prostitute my gift and sign a pact with the devil and compromise my channel to god, and the universe of beautiful music.

Last I heard of him he owned about 1/32th of habitable Norway. I have a two up two down cottage near the airport

I can't even give my stuff away!

If I had my time again I'd definitely be a plagiarising prostitute like you guys.

Quote ow:

---

If I had my time again I'd definitely be a plagiarising prostitute like you guys.

---

Good point. I had heard this, that to be really succesful at it you have to be very good at 'plagiarising' - and good enough to stay on the right side of the law!

There's obviously no real skill to it (well you don't have to be Trevor Horn) I just think you've got to be really good at self-promotion and marketing.

Anybody with cubase and a workstation can do it, it's just difficult to get a foot in the door. But that's true of anything nowadays - even McDonald's are choosey. I say quality doesn't matter because when was the last time YOU paid attention to the background music on Come Dine. The quality is pretty much irrelevant.

Quite right White Van Man. Another good tip is that when they ask for revisions, just send them back the same bloomin file a few days later! They never notice and are too embarrassed at their own cloth ears to say anything!!!

Great tips guys, great tips !

Quote narcoman:

---

You'd be better off looking at promotional strategies and doing something very niche. But niche costs and therefore it's a gamble. For example - there is remarkably little interest in stuff recorded with virtual instruments so playing it for real is a good option.... welcome to the world of spending £10k !!

---

1. There still is some mileage in library music for beginners, but you will have to be able to churn out good stuff at the rate of several tunes every day and pitch extremely low, for the crap end of the market, like home and cheap corporate videos.

2. There is NO interest (at real prices!) in virtual stuff. £10K? Mates rates perhaps!

3. Money in music anywhere? Yep, loads of it! Oodles, in fact. Selling stuff to bedroom musicians. Remember, you are just one piece of gear away from that huge hit!

4. Failing that, you might try talent! Talent and ticking all the boxes! That means you have to be young and good looking, able to play brilliantly, have songs with at least five melody lines in each song, able to play anything, prepared to work 16 hour days, surround yourself with only the very best people and dump the ones who are not pulling their weight, get an agent who eats broken glass and above all - play music people want to hear!

5. Put on a fantastic live show!

Quote The Red Bladder:

---

Quote narcoman:

---

You'd be better off looking at promotional strategies and doing something very niche. But niche costs and therefore it's a gamble. For example - there is remarkably little interest in stuff recorded with virtual instruments so playing it for real is a good option.... welcome to the world of spending £10k !!

---

1. There still is some mileage in library music for beginners, but you will have to be able to churn out good stuff at the rate of several tunes every day and pitch extremely low, for the crap end of the market, like home and cheap corporate videos.

---

Btw, I'm sure you weren't referring to me Red, but for the record I'm not a beginner. Hope I haven't given that impression! Friends and family think I have some genuine talent. Maybe I should post an example of the kind of tunes I do to get your opinion? I had one played on local radio (Southern Counties) a few years ago.

Not bragging or anything but I did get a high grade B at O level back in the day and was in fact recommended to do A level by my music teacher. As for instruments? I'm no Roy Castle but I do play guitar reasonably well (approx grade 4) and a little piano too.

So no, not a beginner.

So you're suggesting start low end - corporates and the like - and gradually work my way up the ladder to the likes of Yooka Music and Pump?

What sort of timescale am I looking at? (I am 58)

Thanks for the advice btw.

p.s. I wouldn't be able to do several tunes a day as you said as I have a full time job. More importantly though, I am a perfectionist and would want to spend a full day on a track rather than just churning them out like in a biscuit factory.

Cheers,

Steve

Quote ow:

---

the only way to sell music would be if was tacked onto some commercial or somesuch other cornflakes.

---

There is no finer, purer or more anonymous way of generating revenue from music than lucking out by somebody using it in a widely distributed advertising campaign! I would far, far rather people knew who was making cornflakes, which were making money for me, than for anybody to know who I was, what I looked like or be able to recognise me in the street. Keep your No.1 single, crawling up to the BBC etc. and your adoring fans, who want to own you for free, as if you were their slave whilst mistakenly thinking you were in some way lucky or privileged. I'd take an invisible slice of bona fide advertising revenue over that nightmare any day. Your friend was a wise man indeed!

--------------------
Strictly project and just for fun

Quote Frisonic:

---

Quote ow:

---

the only way to sell music would be if was tacked onto some commercial or somesuch other cornflakes.

---

There is no finer, purer or more anonymous way of generating revenue from music than lucking out by somebody using it in a widely distributed advertising campaign!

---

+1

Ads is really the thing to be getting into. That pays like 10 quid each time it's shown! If it's shown 5 times a day, 7 days a week...

Well you do the math!

Quote White Car Man:

---

Quote Frisonic:

---

Quote ow:

---

the only way to sell music would be if was tacked onto some commercial or somesuch other cornflakes.

---

There is no finer, purer or more anonymous way of generating revenue from music than lucking out by somebody using it in a widely distributed advertising campaign!

---

+1

Ads is really the thing to be getting into. That pays like 10 quid each time it's shown! If it's shown 5 times a day, 7 days a week...

Well you do the math!

---

Now hold on a New York minute there WCM, that may well be true (and if my maths is correct, that works out to be 250 a week) but not every track is going to earn you mega bucks like that. I know of a few very very successful media composers - real top drawer, these guys have maybe 50 or more tracks placed with top libraries - and they say that maybe 10-20% of their tracks will EARN NOTHING AT ALL! So right away you're looking at 200 quid a week, tops!

Suddenly that career in retail management - where you'll get to travel and possibly even have a company car - doesn't look so bad! lol

Is it 15k?

Quote Nutshell Cavities:

---

Quote White Car Man:

---

Quote Frisonic:

---

Quote ow:

---

the only way to sell music would be if was tacked onto some commercial or somesuch other cornflakes.

---

There is no finer, purer or more anonymous way of generating revenue from music than lucking out by somebody using it in a widely distributed advertising campaign!

---

+1

Ads is really the thing to be getting into. That pays like 10 quid each time it's shown! If it's shown 5 times a day, 7 days a week...

Well you do the math!

---

Now hold on a New York minute there WCM, that may well be true (and if my maths is correct, that works out to be 250 a week) but not every track is going to earn you mega bucks like that. I know of a few very very successful media composers - real top drawer, these guys have maybe 50 or more tracks placed with top libraries - and they say that maybe 10-20% of their tracks will EARN NOTHING AT ALL! So right away you're looking at 200 quid a week, tops!

Suddenly that career in retail management - where you'll get to travel and possibly even have a company car - doesn't look so bad! lol

---

Yes, but multiply that up times ten - 500 tracks and then it looks amazing! 2k a week!!!!

But I guess it would take maybe decades to reach that number.

Quote White Car Man:

---

...So no, not a beginner.

---

We are all beginners every day, are we not?

btw your stuff must be good because i've been bombarding BBC Southern Counties for ages now and not even a sniff.

You do all that minimalist stuff though, they love all that.

It was a sad day when payola was exposed because at least there was a route in. Now, well, you can't just buy young and cool. I have tried ringing up and talking to them in different voices but they just say that my music is ok but that they've already got one.

I don't know what to do now either now that i'm old too.

I have come up with one new weeze though that you might like to consider. I call it RA Marketing or Russ Andrews Marketing. You might see that I am asking rather high prices for my tracks on Bnadcamp The logic is that I couldn't sell any for a pound, so I may as well not sell any a a thousand pounds.

That's not a bad strategy there ow... I mean work it out, if one person downloads a track for £1000, well you'd need literally dozens of buyers at £1 each to achieve the same amount.

Quote ow:

---

Quote White Car Man:

---

...So no, not a beginner.

---

You do all that minimalist stuff though, they love all that.

---

I think you've hit the nail on the head there OW. My music is in a similar style but strictly minimal.

As I say, I do the beats stuff that's more cutting edge and 'hardcore media friendly' (would be ideal for computer games etc) and perhaps what I'd do if I got a library on board.

But the 'classical side' of me is experimental minimal - I just expand it rather than repeating the same phrase, just develop it and take it to different keys. That's what's wrong with minimalism - they don't go to different keys so it becomes boring. And also, I try and make all my music - without exception - euphoric! This is because there's simply too much serious, depressing, minor-key stuff about. Turn on any BBC documentary and it will surely be some depressing, angst-ridden piano dirge.

Here's one I did recently - again, uplifting. Has to be a market for this somewhere I would have thought even if it's Sunday morning religious shows! As I say, no one listens to music that's on in the background of a show anyway.

Wondrous Dawn

Cheers.

That brought a tear to my eye. It's exactly the sort of thing that i wish i'd written but i just don't have the skills. I can hear the training there, the 'O'Level. It's the difference you hear when George Martin got involved with the Beatles.

Quote Nutshell Cavities:

---

That's not a bad strategy there ow... I mean work it out, if one person downloads a track for £1000, well you'd need literally dozens of buyers at £1 each to achieve the same amount.

---

I did the math and i liked it.

White Car Man - that's superb, I can see it working with the current Halifax adverts for example, what with the choir in there. Also, it's a clever choice of key - if D minor is the saddest of all the keys, D Major is surely the happiest ...

Ok, I agree - now hold that thought right there (because this is an excellent real-life test-case), where would 'white car man' send that demo right now to have it considered for the Halifax ad campaign?

Quote ow:

---

Ok, I agree - now hold that thought right there (because this is an excellent real-life test-case), where would 'white car man' send that demo right now to have it considered for the Halifax ad campaign?

---

Thanks OW, that's precisely what I've been trying to find out.

And thanks for the positive comments guys, like I say, I'm no expert but I'm getting there.

OK, gotta go now as the nightshift beckons. I hate delivering when it's raining

Quote ow:

---

Ok, I agree - now hold that thought right there (because this is an excellent real-life test-case), where would 'white car man' send that demo right now to have it considered for the Halifax ad campaign?

---

Well this is the kind of place I imagine the Halifax people get their music from:

http://www.qwpm.co.uk/landing/qwpm_landing_018.html

I would think it's pretty competitive to get in, but pain no gain...

Quote The Red Bladder:

---

2. There is NO interest (at real prices!) in virtual stuff. £10K? Mates rates perhaps!

---

Blads, if you're paying a string quartet £10k you might be overpaying!!

I was referring to spending £10k on promo for three months to raise your industry profile. Employing someone like Franklin Rae.

Quote White Car Man:

---

Ah interesting! No I don't use stylus or anything like that. I only use real instruments - i.e East West gold and / or Omnisphere's real strings section patches - not synthetic in any way just totally 'real' (recorded in a studio in LA with top players).

---

hahah! nice try!!

Quote narcoman:

---

Quote The Red Bladder:

---

2. There is NO interest (at real prices!) in virtual stuff. £10K? Mates rates perhaps!

---

Blads, if you're paying a string quartet £10k you might be overpaying!!

I was referring to spending £10k on promo for three months to raise your industry profile. Employing someone like Franklin Rae.

---

I have never heard of the Franklin Rae string quartet. Are they London based?

That Quest outfit have no Country and no Folk when using their Genre selecion toool.

Do you think that's because nobody likes country or folk music, or do you reckon there's an opening there?

Quote ow:

---

That Quest outfit have no Country and no Folk when using their Genre selecion toool.

Do you think that's because nobody likes country or folk music, or do you reckon there's an opening there?

---

I like neither folk nor country. Ironically, living near a rural area as I do, I find I relate easily to country folk. In the main they are a resilient and friendly bunch.

(Unless you worry their sheep.)

Quote White Car Man:

---

I only use real instruments - i.e East West gold and / or Omnisphere's real strings section patches

---

Those are sampled instruments, not real ones and no end of people are using the exact same thing(s). That's what you're up against. But you're also up against...

Some library writers I know are using REAL strings and choirs, pianos, brass, etc., not sampled facsimiles. They might mock the tunes up with sample library but hire a studio and players in for the final thing (which may or may not be augmented with a hint of the original sampled material). They also hire arrangers, have managers and so on. Granted, these are the more successful writers who can command the budget but it's their music that will be selected over someone with a few nice sample libraries.

Others I know are working in the more electronic area but not with soft synths - with walls of analogue modular stuff. Others are working with software but crafting their own samples and sounds into unique soundscapes. Again, theirs is the stuff that will be chosen over someone dialling up some presets.

And some are combining all these elements...

And even they can wait years for a track of theirs to be picked up and then a further year before they see any income from it!

Sorry but that's the reality.

But the gear is just part of it - the music has to stand out from the crowd somehow. Ad agencies and production companies might be staffed by tone deaf simpletons but on the other hand, they have to sift through a lot of mediocre tosh so your stuff has to be really distinctive, unique, original ... or as good as (or better than) 'the big boys' in order to get a prick up the ears ... so to speak!

--------------------
Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Quote hollowsun:

---

Some library writers I know are using REAL strings and choirs, pianos, brass, etc., not sampled facsimiles. They might mock the tunes up with sample library but hire a studio and players in for the final thing (which may or may not be augmented with a hint of the original sampled material). They also hire arrangers.

---

That's refreshing to know and how it should be. Budget is a bitch but performance is performance. And why the world still needs great sounding rooms. I just hope DG Competition realizes this! Over the weekend I discussed the antitrust scrutiny of Universal's purchase of EMI with a few experts in that area and they all said it'll probably go through without any difficulty. But it is not unusual for DG Comp to use a specific deal as an opportunity to 'learn' an industry. They might well be doing exactly that with this one.

Interesting discussion though. Thanks for all the input people. Did a bit of learning myself!

--------------------
Strictly project and just for fun

Quote Frisonic:

---

That's refreshing to know and how it should be. Budget is a bitch but performance is performance. And why the world still needs great sounding rooms.

---

I should point out that this is the exception rather than the rule and it's (usually) only the more successful writers who are afforded such luxuries.

The point I was trying to make is writing a few nice tunes is one thing - having the contacts to place your outstanding track in front of the shakers and movers (even if they are idiots) is another...

That and the fact that you're up against people who have the contacts (or a manager who does) and have enjoyed enough success that they can afford real instruments, not sampled stuff, even if it's just paying a violinist or cellist, whatever, to augment and bring some life to an otherwise sample-based backing.

And these people are churning out a track a day and completing an album in a month. Maybe a little break in between projects but soon back into the next one ... unless they're also doing commissioned work as well in which case they're juggling they're commitments.

It really is pretty bloody tough and not just dancing with the faeries and idling around indulging in your hobby. And even the successful ones can wait several years before a track 'bites' and earns some money. It can be an eye watering amount if it's a goodie ... like a theme used for a daily TV regular on a big network or a major ad campaign ... or could be a complete duffer if it's picked up by an ad agency in Bridgenorth for a local 'Cars R Us' dealer for an ad on the local FM radio and you earn £30!

It's a gamble (like everything in this biz) and you may or may not be lucky. Either way, you have to be totally committed and driven and determined and focused.

And it isn't prostitution - it's craft ... like a carpenter or potter or baker who just uses their artisanship to turn out quality product every day and there's no room for any arty farty pretentions or preciousness. It's a job and you have to be bloody good ... no - excellent ... at it to succeed!

--------------------
Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Quote hollowsun:

---

And these people are churning out a track a day and completing an album in a month.

---

Hmmm...yeah but if they're working that fast then I find it hard to believe the quality doesn't suffer. Maybe they are very short tracks!!

I think you're over-egging the pudding a bit mate. Like I say, you don't listen to the stuff in the background of 'Come Dine With Me' do you? - the point is, this music is meant to be mediocre otherwise it would be distracting! Would you notice real strings on a background CDWM track?

Can you imagine an episode of CDWM with Also Spracht Zarathustra playing in the background as Audrey serves her mushroom risotto to the guests? Or Air on a G string as Graham proudly unveils his plum surprise? It would simply be sooooo wrong.

Cookery shows are an excellent example because the music is always naff. It HAS to be! If it was brilliant then you'd be sat there contemplating how good the track is rather than seeing Arthur burn his sausage.

And anyway, isn't music subjective? I hate Coldplay, my neighbour loves them. Acker Bilk was popular for a time and don't forget the Nolans were huge. People thought that Dollar and Bucks Fizz were amazing at one time too and they sold alot of records! There is no right or wrong, and I think this is the real essence of music. I'm sure Red Bladder and Narcoman would agree on this point.

My mum thinks I'm brilliant and at the end of the day, who's to say she is wrong? Admittedly, she's 87 and a little hard of hearing nowadays but as she says, the sounds that DO get through are appreciated even more.

Quote hollowsun:

---

the successful ones can wait several years before a track 'bites' and earns some money. It can be an eye watering amount if it's a goodie ... like a theme used for a daily TV regular on a big network or a major ad campaign ... or could be a complete duffer if it's picked up by an ad agency in Bridgenorth for a local 'Cars R Us' dealer for an ad on the local FM radio and you earn £30!

---

Indeed. One friend spends all his time now making 'kids' stuff for a Persons/Disney educational project. The work never seems to run out. Being a multi instrumentalist himself he doesn't have to pay session musicians but certainly recognizes that he adds value by including live recordings amongst the sampled content. Nice steady work but he is very particular about quality. Then the lucky golden goose that comes along occasionally if, as you say, you are well enough connected and have what somebody is looking for: another friend of friend did the music for 'who want's to be a millionaire'. 23 minutes per episode! It was all the same music every week but he got paid just the same, by the minute per episode. Now that one I believe constituted a pension!

--------------------
Strictly project and just for fun

Quote White Car Man:

---

Cookery shows are an excellent example because the music is always naff. It HAS to be! If it was brilliant then you'd be sat there contemplating how good the track is rather than seeing Arthur burn his sausage.

---

An excellent point and one often overlooked. People often say "oh yeah, look how easy being a library writer must be - anybody could write the rubbish music that accompanies these shows!!". Well of course, it's not that simple. Everybody has their different theories about how to break into the business - I'm sure there are those who would say "it's not what you know, it's who you know". To offer a slightly different angle, one composer I know swears that the success of his tracks is down to what he calls them. Well, maybe there's something in it - he had a track called "Lazy 12-bar Instrumental Bed That Would Probably Sound Good on Cowbody Builders or some Crap Like That" - which basically paid for his house. And he lives in a well posh area as well!

Good story Nutshell - perhaps a few more aspiring library writers will stop and think before hitting that upload button eh?!

Quote Nutshell Cavities:

---

To offer a slightly different angle, one composer I know swears that the success of his tracks is down to what he calls them. Well, maybe there's something in it - he had a track called "Lazy 12-bar Instrumental Bed That Would Probably Sound Good on Cowbody Builders or some Crap Like That" - which basically paid for his house. And he lives in a well posh area as well!

---

We know the same people!

It's a sensible wheeze.

Good point made earlier about doing muzak for cookery, etc., programmes but that has to somehow stand out from the crowd (and have a suitable title! ). And, having done it myself in a previous life, creating a piece of unobtrusive blandery that just meanders in the background maybe for several minutes can be tricky - can't be too interesting but can't be mind numbingly repetitive, copy and paste job either ... and then you have to do 5, 10, 15, 30 second 'stings' of that as well.

--------------------
Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Quote White Car Man:

---

Quote narcoman:

---

Quote The Red Bladder:

---

2. There is NO interest (at real prices!) in virtual stuff. £10K? Mates rates perhaps!

---

Blads, if you're paying a string quartet £10k you might be overpaying!!

I was referring to spending £10k on promo for three months to raise your industry profile. Employing someone like Franklin Rae.

---

I have never heard of the Franklin Rae string quartet. Are they London based?

---

haha

Quote hollowsun:

---

And, having done it myself in a previous life, creating a piece of unobtrusive blandery that just meanders in the background maybe for several minutes can be tricky

---

I don't think creating 'bland' music is tricky tbh. I think creating that kinda trailer stuff is far more tricky as you have to have access to extremely large cymbals and gongs. If I wanted to do that I don't know what I'd do as no one round here owns even a medium sized gong, let alone an enormous 40-incher as used in the best trailer music.

I spoke to some guy on another forum about this (Music Library Report) and he reckons library music is the new X-Factor. I.e becoming really popular - he says that even Hans Zimmer and Quincey Jones are doing it. Allegedly...Zimmer has apparently given up scoring films just to solely concentrate on library stuff and Simon Cowell has mentioned setting up a music library himself.

Now if that's true, then I am even more serious about getting a piece of the action before it's too late!

If the big players are getting into it that's a good sign that it's a good money spinner. On the downside, the quality bar is being raised so high. I did hear a rumour of a library music piece that actually featured a hummable melody and some kind of AABA structure, not sure if it's true.

Now we're onto the vulgar subject of money, perhaps it's time to ask a question that's been tweezering my eyebrows for quite some time.

When ripping off some other composers' music to within an inch of a lawsuit, or plagiarising some "just out of copyright" piece (stealing the pennies of a dead man's eyes), what is the appropriate social protocol?

Should one flaunt their spoils, waving their wad like some recently graduated "loadsa money" comedy character, or is it more fitting to be humble and respectful with a nod to the creator, much like a lioness choking the final breath of life out of a young or slow gazelle?

I wouldn't want to make a fool of myself should my demos ever be accepted.

Quote White Car Man:

---

I think creating that kinda trailer stuff is far more tricky as you have to have access to extremely large cymbals and gongs.

---

There are libraries specifically for that kind of stuff.

Quote White Car Man:

---

an enormous 40-incher

---

--------------------
Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Library music sucks

--------------------
Support your right to arm bears!

Quote The Right To Arm Bears:

---

Library music sucks

---

Well it does if you're not doing it. If you are lucky enough to compose library (or production music) for a living then it most certainly doesn't suck.

--------------------
Stand by for action - we are about to launch Stingray!
Cue irritating bongo music ...

Quote White Car Man:

---

Like I say, you don't listen to the stuff in the background of 'Come Dine With Me' do you?

---

Well yes, in fact I often turn the TV volume down to hear the background music. This annoys my other half because she enjoys the witty banter but what can you do?

--------------------
Stand by for action - we are about to launch Stingray!
Cue irritating bongo music ...

Quote The Right To Arm Bears:

---

Library music sucks

---

Then you'd better get used to all music sucking... you'd be surprised how much film music is library source. Secondly - it certainly doesn't suck any more the multitude of rubbish out there NOT in libraries. Thirdly - some of the best loved pieces of music from 60s TV shows was library music.

Quote Commander:

---

Quote White Car Man:

---

Like I say, you don't listen to the stuff in the background of 'Come Dine With Me' do you?

---

Well yes, in fact I often turn the TV volume down to hear the background music. This annoys my other half because she enjoys the witty banter but what can you do?

---

Rustle up a Terrine and invite 3 friends round?

Quote narcoman:

---

Thirdly - some of the best loved pieces of music from 60s TV shows was library music.

---

+1

I believe Trumpton, Chigley and Camberick Green were all library tracks. If this is indeed true, there is an argument for suggesting that Brian Cant was perhaps the first library music 'star'.

Quote Commander:

---

If you are lucky enough to compose library (or production music)

---

Hmmm, the dilemma is which one to choose Commander. Production Music? or Library? I'm sure each has their own individual merits but which direction would be more appropriate for a newbie such as myself starting out?

My instinct is library because you bracketed 'production music' (which would indicate that in your opinion it is somewhat inferior).

But I do now appreciate that both areas are difficult to break into.

Like my dad says, if it was easy everyone would be doing it.

Thanks

Quote hollowsun:

---

Quote White Car Man:

---

I think creating that kinda trailer stuff is far more tricky as you have to have access to extremely large cymbals and gongs.

---

There are libraries specifically for that kind of stuff.

---

Hmmm, but didn't you say earlier that the really good composers use real instruments? Now I am confused. So a gong isn't a real instrument then? Or are you saying it's somehow inferior to strings and that it's OK for gongs to be virtual?

I'm sure my cousin Roger (a drummer) would be interested in having a chat with you about that. Plus the fact that ANY instrument that is named after a cult band deserves not only admiration, but a good deal of respect too.

Something which I find sadly lacking from your above post.

Quote White Car Man:

---

...Like my dad says, if it was easy everyone would be doing it.

---

My dad says, if my auntie had bollocks she's be me uncle.

Quote White Car Man:

---

I believe Trumpton, Chigley and Camberick Green were all library tracks.

---

I don't mean to burst your bubble but I think you'll find all of those tunes were played afresh each week by the Trumpton Fire Brigade band.

--------------------
Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

Quote White Car Man:

---

Hmmm, but didn't you say earlier that the really good composers use real instruments? Now I am confused. So a gong isn't a real instrument then? Or are you saying it's somehow inferior to strings and that it's OK for gongs to be virtual?

---

I'm not saying anything of the sort. You're putting words into my mouth.

In the post you refer to, I said that some composers are able to use real strings, choirs, etc., if budget allows and this, as someone wanting to enter this area of the business, is what you're up against. For trailers, budget doesn't allow so sampled instruments are often used. Even when budget might allow, getting one's hands on real Taiko drums, etc., (which are frequently used for those big dramatic hits ... and which have become something of a cliché) is difficult so one has to resort to sampled instruments.

Other times, if real instruments have been used in the actual score, they edit together bits from the score and augment that with sampled instruments.

It all depends on the production, budget, composer.... and also the deadline - if the trailer has to be done in two days, you can't spend two weeks arsing around trying to locate Taiko drums, whatever, and a place to record them.

Regarding your comments on drums/drummers, one of the most successful composers I know is a drummer and he uses sampled drums where necessary - you use the tools most suitable according to budget, requirements and deadlines.

--------------------
Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

I understand there is one library that only uses real instruments, can't remember which one now but i do seem to remeber reading or watching an interview withthe owner who mentioned this.

We have a very old bugle here, wartime vintage, not sure where it came from but it's a lovely old thing. I wanted to use it but i can't actually play it. I checked round the house for the best sound and natural reverb...

One evening i had the pleasure of having my horn sampled im the bathroom, fantastic slap with a nice tight tail.

Quote narcoman:

---

Thirdly - some of the best loved pieces of music from 60s TV shows was library music.

---

Like this one!

De Wolfe booked a day (and a small orchestra/band) to record an album of library music but, being the consummate musicians they were, they rattled through it all quickly and finished early. Because everything was set up and everyone was assembled, the producer asked if anyone had any ideas for another tune.

The vibes player started playing this little theme he'd been working on. The drummer joined in then the bass player and the guitarist ... a quick run through, tapes rolled and so that tune (and an iconic tune) was made... essentially out of a quick jam session with sh!t hot musos!!

It was released as a single (the fictitious band being 'The Leftones' --- I forget the significance of the name) but not much happened with it. Then it was picked up by Vision On for the background music to their 'gallery' and the rest, as they say, is history!

A fascinating listen HERE - a history of library music on Radio 4. Also an insight into how some of the most famous tunes (many of which are a part of our daily lives) were written and recorded ... common to record six pieces in a three hour session! Also an insight into how things have changed from then to now... and an amusing rant from an old school library composer on the modern use of drones!!

Really worth listening to.

--------------------
Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Quote ow:

---

One evening i had the pleasure of having my horn sampled im the bathroom, fantastic slap with a nice tight tail.

---

--------------------
Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Library still sucks

--------------------
Support your right to arm bears!

I'm with the bear.

Loibray sux bawlz.

Any budding composers out there thinking of giving it a go ..
.. seriously .. think of your dignity.
Leave well alone.

No really.

You're 'artists' not office workers .. go be creative somewhere ..
Writing for library is like the dead end office job of the music industry ..
Seriously .. nothing to see here .. move along ..

Good points hollow but I am still a little confused. So what you seem to be suggesting is that real instruments are de rigeur, unless it comes to drums which can be sampled? Bizarre! And which might explain how there are no real drummers who write library music for a living. Or even production music for that matter.

Thanks hollowsun - a great listen.

Quote White Car Man:

---

Bizarre! And which might explain how there are no real drummers who write library music for a living. Or even production music for that matter.

---

Oh you couldn't be more wrong there!! one of the big names is a rather well respected drummer.

Quote White Car Man:

---

Good points hollow but I am still a little confused. So what you seem to be suggesting is that real instruments are de rigeur, unless it comes to drums which can be sampled? Bizarre! And which might explain how there are no real drummers who write library music for a living. Or even production music for that matter.

---

Isn't there a difference between a drummer using sampled drums and somebody who can't play the drums using sampled drums (or trying to)? Or a drummer using a pragmatic mixture of both sampled and live tracks (he/she might even be sampling their own live drums or other percussion, after all)? I think the same goes for ANY instrument. Its probably a taboo thing to say in a world where trained musicians and engineers are being usurped by people who are having a go with impunity for recreational purposes. Nothing wrong with the latter but let us not kid ourselves that it is not what it is.

If that sounds a bit pious then perhaps it is. But for myself I reached a point where I was no longer prepared to use loops for my drum tracks and when I sat down to write my own, in my case using both a keyboard and a pad as a midi control surface in Logic, I realised there was something missing. I'd set it up right, separate tracks for the bass, snare, toms, high hat and cymbals so I could mix it as if it were a miked up live kit. But I didn't actually know how to play a proper drum kit. I knew what I wanted it to sound like but I didn't know how to achieve a given groove. That's something you have to learn on a real kit. So I started taking drumming lessons. It has been a shock to discover how much that has helped to develop my skills sets across the board in my projects. For one thing if you've really written it and played it (even on a midi control surface) you tend to be a lot more fussy about what you let get in its way! Resulting in more coherent mixes.

--------------------
Strictly project and just for fun

Quote White Car Man:

---

there are no real drummers who write library music for a living. Or even production music for that matter.

---

I thought that was mostly what Stewart Copeland was doing these days? Perhaps I'm wrong.

--------------------
Strictly project and just for fun

Quote Frisonic:

---

...I realised there was something missing. I'd set it up right, separate tracks for the bass, snare, toms, high hat and cymbals...

---

Cowbell?

Quote ow:

---

Quote Frisonic:

---

...I realised there was something missing. I'd set it up right, separate tracks for the bass, snare, toms, high hat and cymbals...

---

Cowbell?

---

Actually it was the Peruvian Yack bells!

--------------------
Strictly project and just for fun

Quote White Car Man:

---

And which might explain how there are no real drummers who write library music for a living. Or even production music for that matter.

---

Errmmm... sorry to disappoint, burst bubbles, etc., but one of the most successful library/commissioned/production music writers I know, who commands budgets large enough to use real instruments and players, whose tax bill through his endeavours is higher than most of of us earn, is, ermmmm, a drummer. He plays 'real' drums in his work but will also use samples as and when necessary. He uses his acoustic kit but will also use his e-kit to trigger sampled drums.

It all depends on the project/budget/situation.

He's also not a bad guitarist and bass player - depending on the situation, he'll play guitar himself or will use samples or will employ a guitarist... or a combination of all three.

And sometimes he'll do a quasi-orchestral thing with samples but will maybe employ (if budget allows) a violinist, cellist, flautist, whatever, to augment it ... or if budget allows and it's appropriate, an entire string or horn section or choir, whatever.

And he's a drummer. And not the only one I know in this area. Many suffered at the hands of programmable digital drum machines such as the LinnDrum and Drumulator. They retaliated by learning how to program them but when these things became ubiquitous (and cheap), they moved into other areas like library music and some have done very well out of it such that the old drummer jokes are a little outdated.

--------------------
Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Quote Mike Stranks:

---

Thanks hollowsun - a great listen.

---

Yes - good, isn't it?

It's an old broadcast - was surprised to find it still available - but fascinating. And SO much stuff we hear every day (news idents, sports programmes, etc.) that are a part of our psyche, almost our culture, were knocked off in a quick session on a rainy Wednesday afternoon by a bunch of musos who pretty much sight read the thing and got it in one take and were off down the pub! A far cry from today, arsing about with a hi-hat part, quantising and sitting at a screen editing it for two weeks, whatever. They just went in there, sat down, tuned up and just did it and left, went down the pub or to the next session and/or off to play in some concert in the evening.

And it still goes on today. I know library and other writers who labour over something but are lucky enough to get a real string section or choir, whatever, (and maybe arranger involved), and are amazed that they can just knock it off, so effortlessly, in a take or two. Library and production writers I know are in total awe when they witness that...

Some scruffy individuals wander in, are given the music, tune up and make a wonderful noise and then just bugger off as though it's nothing. And for them it IS almost is nothing - they are so skilled, they can just pull it off without a second thought!

--------------------
Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

I suppose he's had his horn sampled in the bathroom too?

Quote Frisonic:

---

Quote White Car Man:

---

there are no real drummers who write library music for a living. Or even production music for that matter.

---

I thought that was mostly what Stewart Copeland was doing these days? Perhaps I'm wrong.

---

The Stuart Copeland that founded Island Records ?

Quote hollowsun:

---

Quote White Car Man:

---

And which might explain how there are no real drummers who write library music for a living. Or even production music for that matter.

---

Errmmm... sorry to disappoint, burst bubbles, etc., but one of the most successful library/commissioned/production music writers I know, who commands budgets large enough to use real instruments and players, whose tax bill through his endeavours is higher than most of of us earn, is, ermmmm, a drummer. He plays 'real' drums in his work but will also use samples as and when necessary. He uses his acoustic kit but will also use his e-kit to trigger sampled drums.

---

Thanks Hollow. Nail on head really.

This guy sounds like an incredible musician. You see, these are the circles I really want to be moving in and the people/composers I need to be meeting in order to broaden my horizons. Such people can really teach me what I need to know and, at the same time, be assured that the library 'baton' if you will, will be passed to a new generation who appreciate the efforts of those that have gone before.

Do you think he would consider doing an album with me if I approached him with a good enough idea? Do you think he'd be open to working with someone such as myself? Is he easy to work with?

BTW, I earnt approx. £23,500 last year (gross). If his tax bill is bigger then that then I WOULD be impressed!!

Cheers.

Quote blue manga:

---

Quote Frisonic:

---

Quote White Car Man:

---

there are no real drummers who write library music for a living. Or even production music for that matter.

---

I thought that was mostly what Stewart Copeland was doing these days? Perhaps I'm wrong.

---

The Stuart Copeland that founded Island Records ?

---

No, that was Miles Copeland I think. Not to be confused with Aaron Copeland (Stewart's father as I recall).

I notice that those libraries often have mixes of tracks done by Sting, he's all over them. In fact i'd estimate that pretty much every track has a version by Sting. No wonder he's got so much money... sorry, i mean Zen Karma.

Quote blue manga:

---

Quote Frisonic:

---

Quote White Car Man:

---

there are no real drummers who write library music for a living. Or even production music for that matter.

---

I thought that was mostly what Stewart Copeland was doing these days? Perhaps I'm wrong.

---

The Stuart Copeland that founded Island Records ?

---

The drummer with the Police?

--------------------
Strictly project and just for fun

Quote blue manga:

---

The Stuart Copeland that founded Island Records ?

---

There is a fabulous joke there. Like it....

Quote narcoman:

---

Quote blue manga:

---

The Stuart Copeland that founded Island Records ?

---

There is a fabulous joke

---

Many would disagree. The versatile, yet laid back 'white-reggae-rim-shot' syncopations found in Roxanne would suggest otherwise.

I think at the very least, an apology might be in order.

Quote White Car Man:

---

Do you think he would consider doing an album with me if I approached him with a good enough idea? Do you think he'd be open to working with someone such as myself? Is he easy to work with?

---

Most of those guys are quite difficult to get along with and I doubt very much whether they would be up for collaborations and all this and that. Even if you did manage to work on a project with one of them you'd probably find that the album would disappear without trace, completely diluted and overshadowed by the follow up album composed by a bunch of Swedes containing sub standard dross and released just a couple of Months after your effort.

On the other hand if the idea of watching another composer scratching his arse all day appeals to you then go for it!

--------------------
Stand by for action - we are about to launch Stingray!
Cue irritating bongo music ...

Quote blue manga:

---

The Stuart Copeland that founded Island Records ?

---

Ha! A snot bubble and much LOLage, Manga Boi!

It's all getting a bit surreal in here now though!

--------------------
Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Quote Commander:

---

On the other hand if the idea of watching another composer scratching his arse all day appeals to you then go for it!

---

What are the hours?!

--------------------
Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

And is there any special dress code required? Jaunty cravat, cummerbund, jodphurs, perhaps? Or are you more the tweed and brogues and a quality brushed corduroy pant kind of chap?

--------------------
Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Quote Commander:

---

Most of those guys are quite difficult to get along with and I doubt very much whether they would be up for collaborations and all this and that. Even if you did manage to work on a project with one of them you'd probably find that the album would disappear without trace, completely diluted and overshadowed by the follow up album composed by a bunch of Swedes containing sub standard dross and released just a couple of Months after your effort.

---

Well, I thought I'd ask. Do you write library and/or production music yourself? Is the money any good?

I've been working on some interesting dramatic piano ideas lately which, IMO, would be ideally suited to jingles and the like. Not to mention documentaries. I could certainly see this type of stuff being used on at least 1 or even 2 big promos. The sky's the limit really. I don't actually have real pianos here, but have just purchased something eminently usable called 'real piano vst'.

But what you say about sinking without trace troubles me and perhaps dampens my spirits somewhat. Having said that, my enthusiasm is still strong and I am still interested in working with like minded individuals and real drummers. I am keen, a good worker and with the right impetus (and once refuelled in an appropriate manner) I am sure I can come up with the goods.

I am sure, that after much hard work (and boosey sessions down at The Cavendish Arms!!) I could come up with enough riffs to ensure a complete and thorough command of the genre and devise something powerful, raw and exciting - like Metallica's Carpe Diem or Fade to Black, well perhaps there are better examples but you get the idea. I would like to create something which dazzals...something which dramatically spits 'Fire' from the speakers!

I just need that chance.

Hmmm.. Dazzal.

--------------------
Support your right to arm bears!

Quote White Car Man:

---

:( Well, I thought I'd ask. Do you write library and/or production music yourself? Is the money any good?

---

I have dabbled from time to time but frankly I bore quickly and found the re-numeration came too slowly for my liking. I've also tried collaborating with other library composers but the back stabbing and bitchiness that went with it made it not worth the effort. Last time I worked with other composers I had to have counselling for a couple of weeks just to reassure myself that it wasn't my fault.

Library music can be a fascinating avenue though and there is nothing to beat the thrill of hearing your latest tune being played in the lifts at Westfield.

--------------------
Stand by for action - we are about to launch Stingray!
Cue irritating bongo music ...

Just to be clear - the thing about a drummer writing library music - that's a joke, right?

Quote Nutshell Cavities:

---

Just to be clear - the thing about a drummer writing library music - that's a joke, right?

---

Not the one I know!! In my travels around various parts of this business there are two instruments that crop up a lot - piano players and drummers. Lots of those types making money in this biz.

Quote White Car Man:

---

... boosey sessions down at The Cavendish Arms!!

---

I always liked Boosey & Hawkes, you can see their music in lots of shops. Does this mean they've split up?

Andy

--------------------
When the going gets weird, the Weird turn Pro.

Quote Nutshell Cavities:

---

Just to be clear - the thing about a drummer writing library music - that's a joke, right?

---

Of course its not a joke. Another thing drummers started doing, especially in the eighties when their livelihoods became threatened by the advent of mechanical and digital competition (they were the first in the music industry) was diversify into sound engineering. There are good drummers and bad drummers but anybody who doesn't think drummers are musicians doesn't deserve their DAW.

I see this thread I started has been moved into the Lounge from Music Business and I can't say I'm surprised, since this parallel universe discussion about music libraries got started. However my original question was answered long ago: Nobody working in the industry is remotely concerned that there would be any antitrust issues falling out of Universal's proposed purchase of EMI. That's what I wanted to know. Ta!

--------------------
Strictly project and just for fun

Quote Frisonic:

---

Quote Nutshell Cavities:

---

Just to be clear - the thing about a drummer writing library music - that's a joke, right?

---

Of course its not a joke.

---

Sorry mate but I have yet to hear of library music being written by a drummer. I'm not saying it couldn't happen, anything is possible after all, merely that it hasn't happened yet.

What does he do, have the lilting melody line on toms then?

Quote zenguitar:

---

Quote White Car Man:

---

... boosey sessions down at The Cavendish Arms!!

---

I always liked Boosey & Hawkes, you can see their music in lots of shops. Does this mean they've split up?

Andy

---

Who are Boosey and Hawkes? They sound like an old 50s variety act.

Quote hollowsun:

---

A fascinating listen HERE - a history of library music on Radio 4.

---

Keith Mansfield: "...some very illustrious composers were asked and I was one of them..."

0/10 for self-deprecation.

Quote narcoman:

---

Quote Nutshell Cavities:

---

Just to be clear - the thing about a drummer writing library music - that's a joke, right?

---

Not the one I know!! In my travels around various parts of this business there are two instruments that crop up a lot - piano players and drummers. Lots of those types making money in this biz.

---

There's lots of them but you only know one???!!

Now I'm really confused!

Quote White Car Man:

---

Quote narcoman:

---

Quote Nutshell Cavities:

---

Just to be clear - the thing about a drummer writing library music - that's a joke, right?

---

Not the one I know!! In my travels around various parts of this business there are two instruments that crop up a lot - piano players and drummers. Lots of those types making money in this biz.

---

There's lots of them but you only know one???!!

Now I'm really confused!

---

As in "he works for me". The rest - loads of them. I find more media composers who play drums and piano than ANY other instruments. The ones I come across least are guitarists - low barrier to entry I guess.... Many many producers and mixers are also drummers. All 4 of the directors of audio for a very well known media company are drummers. Two colleagues who work in the same biz as me are drummers. The producer of a project I finished last year - drummer. The director of a movie I just mixed; drummer.....

they're everywhere!! Creative and tenacious bunch!

Boosey? big publisher. Very big. Now owned by Imagem.....

Quote narcoman:

---

The ones I come across least are guitarists - low barrier to entry I guess....

---

Fair play mate. I get what you're saying. They're ten a dozen and you're struggling to find anyone reliable right?

Well no worries, I play quite well. You can hire me for a session for 20 quid an hour if you want (plus travel on top, cash preferred). Just pm me and we'll sort something out. I would arrive on time, try my best and give it 110%.

Quote narcoman:

---

Boosey? big publisher. Very big. Now owned by Imagem.....

---

Sounds good. Do they except demos?

Quote White Car Man:

---

Do they except demos?

---

They all accept demos. Whether they listen to them is another matter!

--------------------
Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Quote hollowsun:

---

Quote White Car Man:

---

Do they except demos?

---

They all accept demos. Whether they listen to them is another matter!

---

You can improve your chances by ensuring you design an attractive cassette inlay. Use colourful artwork, and make sure your track titles are clearly typed, not handwritten. If you must use handwritten titles, then ensure you use black ink. But if you don't use blank ink, blue will suffice.

Make sure your contact details are on the cassette as well as the inlay!! You'd be surprised how many busy music supervisors listen to a cassette on the car stereo and go, "wowza! that's some pretty hot music right there!" - only to remove the tape and find there are no contact details on it! A golden opportunity missed!

Some other tips: always ensure your jiffy packet is clearly addreesed, and make sure you address to a specific person, like "Head of A+R". Some witty cartoons or captions on the packet like "please like my music!" - or perhaps an enclosed chocolate bar (who doesn't like chocolate!??!) - will help put the recipient in a good mood.

Best of luck!