Quote The Red Bladder:

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2. There is NO interest (at real prices!) in virtual stuff. £10K? Mates rates perhaps!

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Blads, if you're paying a string quartet £10k you might be overpaying!!

I was referring to spending £10k on promo for three months to raise your industry profile. Employing someone like Franklin Rae.

Quote White Car Man:

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Ah interesting! No I don't use stylus or anything like that. I only use real instruments - i.e East West gold and / or Omnisphere's real strings section patches - not synthetic in any way just totally 'real' (recorded in a studio in LA with top players).

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hahah! nice try!!

Quote narcoman:

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Quote The Red Bladder:

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2. There is NO interest (at real prices!) in virtual stuff. £10K? Mates rates perhaps!

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Blads, if you're paying a string quartet £10k you might be overpaying!!

I was referring to spending £10k on promo for three months to raise your industry profile. Employing someone like Franklin Rae.

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I have never heard of the Franklin Rae string quartet. Are they London based?

That Quest outfit have no Country and no Folk when using their Genre selecion toool.

Do you think that's because nobody likes country or folk music, or do you reckon there's an opening there?

Quote ow:

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That Quest outfit have no Country and no Folk when using their Genre selecion toool.

Do you think that's because nobody likes country or folk music, or do you reckon there's an opening there?

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I like neither folk nor country. Ironically, living near a rural area as I do, I find I relate easily to country folk. In the main they are a resilient and friendly bunch.

(Unless you worry their sheep.)

Quote White Car Man:

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I only use real instruments - i.e East West gold and / or Omnisphere's real strings section patches

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Those are sampled instruments, not real ones and no end of people are using the exact same thing(s). That's what you're up against. But you're also up against...

Some library writers I know are using REAL strings and choirs, pianos, brass, etc., not sampled facsimiles. They might mock the tunes up with sample library but hire a studio and players in for the final thing (which may or may not be augmented with a hint of the original sampled material). They also hire arrangers, have managers and so on. Granted, these are the more successful writers who can command the budget but it's their music that will be selected over someone with a few nice sample libraries.

Others I know are working in the more electronic area but not with soft synths - with walls of analogue modular stuff. Others are working with software but crafting their own samples and sounds into unique soundscapes. Again, theirs is the stuff that will be chosen over someone dialling up some presets.

And some are combining all these elements...

And even they can wait years for a track of theirs to be picked up and then a further year before they see any income from it!

Sorry but that's the reality.

But the gear is just part of it - the music has to stand out from the crowd somehow. Ad agencies and production companies might be staffed by tone deaf simpletons but on the other hand, they have to sift through a lot of mediocre tosh so your stuff has to be really distinctive, unique, original ... or as good as (or better than) 'the big boys' in order to get a prick up the ears ... so to speak!

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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Quote hollowsun:

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Some library writers I know are using REAL strings and choirs, pianos, brass, etc., not sampled facsimiles. They might mock the tunes up with sample library but hire a studio and players in for the final thing (which may or may not be augmented with a hint of the original sampled material). They also hire arrangers.

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That's refreshing to know and how it should be. Budget is a bitch but performance is performance. And why the world still needs great sounding rooms. I just hope DG Competition realizes this! Over the weekend I discussed the antitrust scrutiny of Universal's purchase of EMI with a few experts in that area and they all said it'll probably go through without any difficulty. But it is not unusual for DG Comp to use a specific deal as an opportunity to 'learn' an industry. They might well be doing exactly that with this one.

Interesting discussion though. Thanks for all the input people. Did a bit of learning myself!

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Strictly project and just for fun

Quote Frisonic:

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That's refreshing to know and how it should be. Budget is a bitch but performance is performance. And why the world still needs great sounding rooms.

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I should point out that this is the exception rather than the rule and it's (usually) only the more successful writers who are afforded such luxuries.

The point I was trying to make is writing a few nice tunes is one thing - having the contacts to place your outstanding track in front of the shakers and movers (even if they are idiots) is another...

That and the fact that you're up against people who have the contacts (or a manager who does) and have enjoyed enough success that they can afford real instruments, not sampled stuff, even if it's just paying a violinist or cellist, whatever, to augment and bring some life to an otherwise sample-based backing.

And these people are churning out a track a day and completing an album in a month. Maybe a little break in between projects but soon back into the next one ... unless they're also doing commissioned work as well in which case they're juggling they're commitments.

It really is pretty bloody tough and not just dancing with the faeries and idling around indulging in your hobby. And even the successful ones can wait several years before a track 'bites' and earns some money. It can be an eye watering amount if it's a goodie ... like a theme used for a daily TV regular on a big network or a major ad campaign ... or could be a complete duffer if it's picked up by an ad agency in Bridgenorth for a local 'Cars R Us' dealer for an ad on the local FM radio and you earn £30!

It's a gamble (like everything in this biz) and you may or may not be lucky. Either way, you have to be totally committed and driven and determined and focused.

And it isn't prostitution - it's craft ... like a carpenter or potter or baker who just uses their artisanship to turn out quality product every day and there's no room for any arty farty pretentions or preciousness. It's a job and you have to be bloody good ... no - excellent ... at it to succeed!

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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Quote hollowsun:

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And these people are churning out a track a day and completing an album in a month.

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Hmmm...yeah but if they're working that fast then I find it hard to believe the quality doesn't suffer. Maybe they are very short tracks!!

I think you're over-egging the pudding a bit mate. Like I say, you don't listen to the stuff in the background of 'Come Dine With Me' do you? - the point is, this music is meant to be mediocre otherwise it would be distracting! Would you notice real strings on a background CDWM track?

Can you imagine an episode of CDWM with Also Spracht Zarathustra playing in the background as Audrey serves her mushroom risotto to the guests? Or Air on a G string as Graham proudly unveils his plum surprise? It would simply be sooooo wrong.

Cookery shows are an excellent example because the music is always naff. It HAS to be! If it was brilliant then you'd be sat there contemplating how good the track is rather than seeing Arthur burn his sausage.

And anyway, isn't music subjective? I hate Coldplay, my neighbour loves them. Acker Bilk was popular for a time and don't forget the Nolans were huge. People thought that Dollar and Bucks Fizz were amazing at one time too and they sold alot of records! There is no right or wrong, and I think this is the real essence of music. I'm sure Red Bladder and Narcoman would agree on this point.

My mum thinks I'm brilliant and at the end of the day, who's to say she is wrong? Admittedly, she's 87 and a little hard of hearing nowadays but as she says, the sounds that DO get through are appreciated even more.

Quote hollowsun:

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the successful ones can wait several years before a track 'bites' and earns some money. It can be an eye watering amount if it's a goodie ... like a theme used for a daily TV regular on a big network or a major ad campaign ... or could be a complete duffer if it's picked up by an ad agency in Bridgenorth for a local 'Cars R Us' dealer for an ad on the local FM radio and you earn £30!

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Indeed. One friend spends all his time now making 'kids' stuff for a Persons/Disney educational project. The work never seems to run out. Being a multi instrumentalist himself he doesn't have to pay session musicians but certainly recognizes that he adds value by including live recordings amongst the sampled content. Nice steady work but he is very particular about quality. Then the lucky golden goose that comes along occasionally if, as you say, you are well enough connected and have what somebody is looking for: another friend of friend did the music for 'who want's to be a millionaire'. 23 minutes per episode! It was all the same music every week but he got paid just the same, by the minute per episode. Now that one I believe constituted a pension!

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Strictly project and just for fun

Quote White Car Man:

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Cookery shows are an excellent example because the music is always naff. It HAS to be! If it was brilliant then you'd be sat there contemplating how good the track is rather than seeing Arthur burn his sausage.

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An excellent point and one often overlooked. People often say "oh yeah, look how easy being a library writer must be - anybody could write the rubbish music that accompanies these shows!!". Well of course, it's not that simple. Everybody has their different theories about how to break into the business - I'm sure there are those who would say "it's not what you know, it's who you know". To offer a slightly different angle, one composer I know swears that the success of his tracks is down to what he calls them. Well, maybe there's something in it - he had a track called "Lazy 12-bar Instrumental Bed That Would Probably Sound Good on Cowbody Builders or some Crap Like That" - which basically paid for his house. And he lives in a well posh area as well!

Good story Nutshell - perhaps a few more aspiring library writers will stop and think before hitting that upload button eh?!

Quote Nutshell Cavities:

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To offer a slightly different angle, one composer I know swears that the success of his tracks is down to what he calls them. Well, maybe there's something in it - he had a track called "Lazy 12-bar Instrumental Bed That Would Probably Sound Good on Cowbody Builders or some Crap Like That" - which basically paid for his house. And he lives in a well posh area as well!

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We know the same people!

It's a sensible wheeze.

Good point made earlier about doing muzak for cookery, etc., programmes but that has to somehow stand out from the crowd (and have a suitable title! ). And, having done it myself in a previous life, creating a piece of unobtrusive blandery that just meanders in the background maybe for several minutes can be tricky - can't be too interesting but can't be mind numbingly repetitive, copy and paste job either ... and then you have to do 5, 10, 15, 30 second 'stings' of that as well.

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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Quote White Car Man:

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Quote narcoman:

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Quote The Red Bladder:

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2. There is NO interest (at real prices!) in virtual stuff. £10K? Mates rates perhaps!

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Blads, if you're paying a string quartet £10k you might be overpaying!!

I was referring to spending £10k on promo for three months to raise your industry profile. Employing someone like Franklin Rae.

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I have never heard of the Franklin Rae string quartet. Are they London based?

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haha

Quote hollowsun:

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And, having done it myself in a previous life, creating a piece of unobtrusive blandery that just meanders in the background maybe for several minutes can be tricky

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I don't think creating 'bland' music is tricky tbh. I think creating that kinda trailer stuff is far more tricky as you have to have access to extremely large cymbals and gongs. If I wanted to do that I don't know what I'd do as no one round here owns even a medium sized gong, let alone an enormous 40-incher as used in the best trailer music.

I spoke to some guy on another forum about this (Music Library Report) and he reckons library music is the new X-Factor. I.e becoming really popular - he says that even Hans Zimmer and Quincey Jones are doing it. Allegedly...Zimmer has apparently given up scoring films just to solely concentrate on library stuff and Simon Cowell has mentioned setting up a music library himself.

Now if that's true, then I am even more serious about getting a piece of the action before it's too late!

If the big players are getting into it that's a good sign that it's a good money spinner. On the downside, the quality bar is being raised so high. I did hear a rumour of a library music piece that actually featured a hummable melody and some kind of AABA structure, not sure if it's true.

Now we're onto the vulgar subject of money, perhaps it's time to ask a question that's been tweezering my eyebrows for quite some time.

When ripping off some other composers' music to within an inch of a lawsuit, or plagiarising some "just out of copyright" piece (stealing the pennies of a dead man's eyes), what is the appropriate social protocol?

Should one flaunt their spoils, waving their wad like some recently graduated "loadsa money" comedy character, or is it more fitting to be humble and respectful with a nod to the creator, much like a lioness choking the final breath of life out of a young or slow gazelle?

I wouldn't want to make a fool of myself should my demos ever be accepted.

Quote White Car Man:

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I think creating that kinda trailer stuff is far more tricky as you have to have access to extremely large cymbals and gongs.

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There are libraries specifically for that kind of stuff.

Quote White Car Man:

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an enormous 40-incher

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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Library music sucks

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Support your right to arm bears!

Quote The Right To Arm Bears:

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Library music sucks

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Well it does if you're not doing it. If you are lucky enough to compose library (or production music) for a living then it most certainly doesn't suck.

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Stand by for action - we are about to launch Stingray!
Cue irritating bongo music ...

Quote White Car Man:

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Like I say, you don't listen to the stuff in the background of 'Come Dine With Me' do you?

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Well yes, in fact I often turn the TV volume down to hear the background music. This annoys my other half because she enjoys the witty banter but what can you do?

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Stand by for action - we are about to launch Stingray!
Cue irritating bongo music ...

Quote The Right To Arm Bears:

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Library music sucks

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Then you'd better get used to all music sucking... you'd be surprised how much film music is library source. Secondly - it certainly doesn't suck any more the multitude of rubbish out there NOT in libraries. Thirdly - some of the best loved pieces of music from 60s TV shows was library music.

Quote Commander:

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Quote White Car Man:

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Like I say, you don't listen to the stuff in the background of 'Come Dine With Me' do you?

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Well yes, in fact I often turn the TV volume down to hear the background music. This annoys my other half because she enjoys the witty banter but what can you do?

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Rustle up a Terrine and invite 3 friends round?

Quote narcoman:

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Thirdly - some of the best loved pieces of music from 60s TV shows was library music.

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+1

I believe Trumpton, Chigley and Camberick Green were all library tracks. If this is indeed true, there is an argument for suggesting that Brian Cant was perhaps the first library music 'star'.

Quote Commander:

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If you are lucky enough to compose library (or production music)

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Hmmm, the dilemma is which one to choose Commander. Production Music? or Library? I'm sure each has their own individual merits but which direction would be more appropriate for a newbie such as myself starting out?

My instinct is library because you bracketed 'production music' (which would indicate that in your opinion it is somewhat inferior).

But I do now appreciate that both areas are difficult to break into.

Like my dad says, if it was easy everyone would be doing it.

Thanks

Quote hollowsun:

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Quote White Car Man:

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I think creating that kinda trailer stuff is far more tricky as you have to have access to extremely large cymbals and gongs.

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There are libraries specifically for that kind of stuff.

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Hmmm, but didn't you say earlier that the really good composers use real instruments? Now I am confused. So a gong isn't a real instrument then? Or are you saying it's somehow inferior to strings and that it's OK for gongs to be virtual?

I'm sure my cousin Roger (a drummer) would be interested in having a chat with you about that. Plus the fact that ANY instrument that is named after a cult band deserves not only admiration, but a good deal of respect too.

Something which I find sadly lacking from your above post.

Quote White Car Man:

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...Like my dad says, if it was easy everyone would be doing it.

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My dad says, if my auntie had bollocks she's be me uncle.

Quote White Car Man:

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I believe Trumpton, Chigley and Camberick Green were all library tracks.

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I don't mean to burst your bubble but I think you'll find all of those tunes were played afresh each week by the Trumpton Fire Brigade band.

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Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

Quote White Car Man:

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Hmmm, but didn't you say earlier that the really good composers use real instruments? Now I am confused. So a gong isn't a real instrument then? Or are you saying it's somehow inferior to strings and that it's OK for gongs to be virtual?

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I'm not saying anything of the sort. You're putting words into my mouth.

In the post you refer to, I said that some composers are able to use real strings, choirs, etc., if budget allows and this, as someone wanting to enter this area of the business, is what you're up against. For trailers, budget doesn't allow so sampled instruments are often used. Even when budget might allow, getting one's hands on real Taiko drums, etc., (which are frequently used for those big dramatic hits ... and which have become something of a cliché) is difficult so one has to resort to sampled instruments.

Other times, if real instruments have been used in the actual score, they edit together bits from the score and augment that with sampled instruments.

It all depends on the production, budget, composer.... and also the deadline - if the trailer has to be done in two days, you can't spend two weeks arsing around trying to locate Taiko drums, whatever, and a place to record them.

Regarding your comments on drums/drummers, one of the most successful composers I know is a drummer and he uses sampled drums where necessary - you use the tools most suitable according to budget, requirements and deadlines.

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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

I understand there is one library that only uses real instruments, can't remember which one now but i do seem to remeber reading or watching an interview withthe owner who mentioned this.

We have a very old bugle here, wartime vintage, not sure where it came from but it's a lovely old thing. I wanted to use it but i can't actually play it. I checked round the house for the best sound and natural reverb...

One evening i had the pleasure of having my horn sampled im the bathroom, fantastic slap with a nice tight tail.

Quote narcoman:

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Thirdly - some of the best loved pieces of music from 60s TV shows was library music.

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Like this one!

De Wolfe booked a day (and a small orchestra/band) to record an album of library music but, being the consummate musicians they were, they rattled through it all quickly and finished early. Because everything was set up and everyone was assembled, the producer asked if anyone had any ideas for another tune.

The vibes player started playing this little theme he'd been working on. The drummer joined in then the bass player and the guitarist ... a quick run through, tapes rolled and so that tune (and an iconic tune) was made... essentially out of a quick jam session with sh!t hot musos!!

It was released as a single (the fictitious band being 'The Leftones' --- I forget the significance of the name) but not much happened with it. Then it was picked up by Vision On for the background music to their 'gallery' and the rest, as they say, is history!

A fascinating listen HERE - a history of library music on Radio 4. Also an insight into how some of the most famous tunes (many of which are a part of our daily lives) were written and recorded ... common to record six pieces in a three hour session! Also an insight into how things have changed from then to now... and an amusing rant from an old school library composer on the modern use of drones!!

Really worth listening to.

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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Quote ow:

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One evening i had the pleasure of having my horn sampled im the bathroom, fantastic slap with a nice tight tail.

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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Library still sucks

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Support your right to arm bears!

I'm with the bear.

Loibray sux bawlz.

Any budding composers out there thinking of giving it a go ..
.. seriously .. think of your dignity.
Leave well alone.

No really.

You're 'artists' not office workers .. go be creative somewhere ..
Writing for library is like the dead end office job of the music industry ..
Seriously .. nothing to see here .. move along ..

Good points hollow but I am still a little confused. So what you seem to be suggesting is that real instruments are de rigeur, unless it comes to drums which can be sampled? Bizarre! And which might explain how there are no real drummers who write library music for a living. Or even production music for that matter.

Thanks hollowsun - a great listen.

Quote White Car Man:

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Bizarre! And which might explain how there are no real drummers who write library music for a living. Or even production music for that matter.

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Oh you couldn't be more wrong there!! one of the big names is a rather well respected drummer.

Quote White Car Man:

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Good points hollow but I am still a little confused. So what you seem to be suggesting is that real instruments are de rigeur, unless it comes to drums which can be sampled? Bizarre! And which might explain how there are no real drummers who write library music for a living. Or even production music for that matter.

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Isn't there a difference between a drummer using sampled drums and somebody who can't play the drums using sampled drums (or trying to)? Or a drummer using a pragmatic mixture of both sampled and live tracks (he/she might even be sampling their own live drums or other percussion, after all)? I think the same goes for ANY instrument. Its probably a taboo thing to say in a world where trained musicians and engineers are being usurped by people who are having a go with impunity for recreational purposes. Nothing wrong with the latter but let us not kid ourselves that it is not what it is.

If that sounds a bit pious then perhaps it is. But for myself I reached a point where I was no longer prepared to use loops for my drum tracks and when I sat down to write my own, in my case using both a keyboard and a pad as a midi control surface in Logic, I realised there was something missing. I'd set it up right, separate tracks for the bass, snare, toms, high hat and cymbals so I could mix it as if it were a miked up live kit. But I didn't actually know how to play a proper drum kit. I knew what I wanted it to sound like but I didn't know how to achieve a given groove. That's something you have to learn on a real kit. So I started taking drumming lessons. It has been a shock to discover how much that has helped to develop my skills sets across the board in my projects. For one thing if you've really written it and played it (even on a midi control surface) you tend to be a lot more fussy about what you let get in its way! Resulting in more coherent mixes.

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Strictly project and just for fun

Quote White Car Man:

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there are no real drummers who write library music for a living. Or even production music for that matter.

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I thought that was mostly what Stewart Copeland was doing these days? Perhaps I'm wrong.

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Strictly project and just for fun