Hi all, i'm buying a pair of Sennheiser HD650's next week after reading the headphone shoot out feature in SOS. I've since heard that to get the most reliable sound out of them you need to 'break them in' for around 100 hours. Is this true? and if so would mixing on them before they're 'broken in' mean that i'm not getting an accurate sound? All advice appreciated!

Quote davegorst:

---

Hi all, i'm buying a pair of Sennheiser HD650's next week after reading the headphone shoot out feature in SOS. I've since heard that to get the most reliable sound out of them you need to 'break them in' for around 100 hours. Is this true? and if so would mixing on them before they're 'broken in' mean that i'm not getting an accurate sound? All advice appreciated!

---

There is some evidence to suggest they get better after being broken in, but its not a night and day difference. You can't mix down with totally new sound equipment straight away anyway. And also you should never mix down purely on headphones. So just buy them, leave them on at night for the first week and don't worry about it too much.

They will break in. Almost all speakers will. However the headphones will go from good to great. You will enjoy them right out of the box. I have many pairs at work but none were new when I started, so I cant give you a full run down on what happens!!

Somewhere on the Sennheiser/Neumann website, they have a magnificent article debunking this idiotic myth - sadly, I can't find it, but here is something I wrote on the subject -

Many years ago, all car engines had to be run in for about 1,000 miles. At the end of this period, the customer brought the car to the dealer and there the various bolts were tightened up and the oil was changed.

This arrangement was far from ideal, some people were more careful than others and some dealers did a better job than others, so one engine manufacturer used a computer programme to run the engines against dummy hydraulic loads to simulate 1,000 miles of perfect running in driving. Then the engines were put into the cars and no running in was required.

Customers complained and were mystified. How can a car already be run in? That does not make any sense!

So this particular manufacturer did a test. They told a group of customers that they had to run in the engines with religious care and they were even given totally over-the-top instructions on what to do. There was of course absolutely no point to it, they were perfectly run-in already.

Another group was told to just drive. They were told the truth, there was no need to run them in, a computer programme had already done a far better job than any customer could have achieved.

These two test groups were revisited over the next few years and there future choice of cars and overall behaviour as customers was observed. The results were really surprising - not only did the run-in cars have slightly fewer faults than the non-run-in cars, but the customers expressed greater satisfaction with them and were significantly more likely to buy the same brand the next time.

The testers came to the conclusion that by actively involving the customer in the care of the car right at the beginning, an emotional bond had been created. This in turn, meant that they took greater care of the vehicle, drove more carefully and enjoyed the experience more.

Monitors are high quality (we hope!) hi-fi speakers. In the main, all monitor manufacturers are also manufacturers of hi-fi speakers and put exactly the same drivers in both types. The only differences are marketing and sometimes that the studio monitors also contain amps and crossovers to make them active.

With one or two minor exceptions, all driver cones are made of materials that, to all intents and purposes, do not fatigue. For example KEF and B&W use glass-fibre and most paper cones are impregnated with various substances, such as epoxy resins and UV resins that prevent warping and bending and also counteract the effects of fatigue that paper alone would otherwise be subject to.

I have fatigue tested and repaired many, many speakers in my lifetime and the only places where a speaker driver gets damaged is on the suspension and on the coil. Over time, the suspension can wear down (paper) or rot and crack (rubber). A change in the sound only takes place when the suspension is badly damaged. Even a cracked rubber surround is not audible until that crack goes all the way through the material, from front to rear, in which case the speaker will start to buzz at certain frequencies.

Some manufacturers actually tell their customers that by running in their speakers, they are making them more pliant. In the case of glass fibre and epoxy resin impregnated cones (and remember that is nearly all of them) there is no bending and they are carefully constructed to avoid bending anywhere other than at the suspension. A driver is suspended at the throat and at the outer edge of the cone. In a hi-fi or monitor driver, both are extremely soft and pliant, so that the only effective resistance to movement is air. This is done to improve the response rate (the ability to mirror the incoming signal accurately).

All hi-fi and monitor drivers for mid and bass have soft suspensions such as a rubber surround or a cloth surround that allows the driver to move forward and back fully and completely, like a piston. The main factors that decide the sound of a speaker is the mass and size of the cone and the compliance of the air mass to the front and to the rear. All these are a given. You could drive that speaker for 100 years and the air, the diameter and the weight of the cone will be the same. The same rules apply to the tweeter, which works as a fully enclosed system.

There is one type and one type only of speaker that I have seen that changes its characteristics over time and that is the stiff-suspension guitar cab driver.

In these, the suspension used to be made of the same materials as the cone, i.e. paper and with time, the whole cone and suspension would become softer texture when the fibres separated as the whole thing vibrated.

The changes are slight. We tested the changes that occurred over time with a stroboscope, so that we could see the bending take place. A stiff-suspension causes the driver to bend the cone into patterns at higher frequencies and in some cases, a worn cone would create slightly different patterns at given frequencies, when compared with a newer sibling, but these changes are enough to give the final sound more harmonic distortion, not unlike that of a valve (tube).

It is this creation of patterns that causes some of the sound that a certain guitar cabinet to produce a type of distortion that the musician is looking for, so picking the right driver for the cab is important.

On the other hand, the main resistive load for a monitor driver in a closed box with soft suspension (rubber or silicon) is the air it has to move and the air in the box in particular. Modern polymers as are used by all (as far as I am aware) driver manufacturers are very elastic (ability to return to original form) and very 'un-plastic.'

This is not true for pure paper cones that alter their mechanical characteristics significantly over time.

For that reason, guitar amp drivers that have been on the road for a few years have more overtones than a brand new driver. Both the suspensions and the cone itself are made of thick paper that loosens its structure with age and use and the resonant frequency of such a driver can drop significantly. Paper cones loosen their structure and therefore reproduce certain frequencies and harmonic combinations differently as they get older.

Paper cone guitar speakers rely on the stiffness of the suspension for a large part of their resistive load. This can vary between 20% and 60%, depending on a whole host of factors, including volume, stiffness and construction of the surrounding cabinet.

The stiffness of the suspension of a studio monitor is kept fairly low and at the same time, the cones are made as stiff as possible, all by use of modern materials such as polymers and complex glass fibre and polymer combinations.

Also, studio monitors are not supposed to be used to the full extent of the travel of the cone. Put simply, they are (or at least should be) used at lower volumes, so as to avoid mechanical distortion.

These are built into either fully enclosed or deeply ported cabinets and the resistive load of the air is therefore far greater than for an open guitar cab.

Those two factors combined, mean that the mechanical resistance of the suspension accounts for less than 20% of the total resistance. At low volumes, less than 10%.

Given that modern materials only marginally alter their elasticity and plasticity and that tiny change effects a factor that makes up just 10% or less of the overall compliance of the driver, we are talking about something that might alter a fraction of a percentage of the mechanical compliance of the driver.

Headphone membranes are usually made of biaxially-oriented polyethylene terephthalate, which is a pre-stressed (drawn) version of the same stuff that is used to make pop bottles (aka PET bottles). This stuff behaves in a very similar fashion to modern studio monitor cones.

In short, run in the speakers on the your guitar stacks. The older and 'fluffier' the paper, the more harmonics they will create - a bit like old valves really.

But the drivers in your high quality studio monitors use air as their resistive load and last I heard, you can't run in air.

Red Bladder has, as always, expressed his opinions in a forthright manner...

... on the other hand, the FIRST site I found when Googling "Breaking-in Headphones" has this to say:

"Break-in, and headphone mass. It's interesting that there's little noticeable break-in with smaller headphones (like the iGrado or Sennheiser PX100 - but much more with larger phones (like the K701 and GS1000). In small phones, the metal "moving coil" in is less flexible; but larger phones offer more opportunity for movement and break-in. Break-in has actually been measured with full-sized speaker diaphragms. The larger the diaphragms, the more potential break-in. Also, there's no question that listeners with better headphones - and more sensitive systems - are better at differentiating sound.

Industry honesty. A cynic might suggest that vendors have everything to gain from customers getting used to their expensive headphones - equating break-in to a sales tool. But the very opposite might be the case. Manufacturers like Sennheiser say that their products sound great out of the box (which is largely true), but privately admit that they improve after break-in. Apparently, they're sensitive to the notion that their product might be less than 100% perfect on delivery.

Some find it curious that credible firms like Headroom, Headphone Solutions, and TTVJ concur in their support of headphone break-in - while unanimously rejecting that possibility for in-ear monitors (which have fixed armatures, and physically can't break in). Aside from having reputations for honesty, they're intimately knowledgeable about the products they vend. Then again, even a modest skeptic might conclude it's all an example of group-think with fewer facts than opinions.

Mixed messages. Ultrasone claims on on their website that their headphones require break-in, quoting between 4-16 hours, depending on the model. They also state that additional break-in will improve the sound even more. Grado has repeatedly supported the idea of break-in.

On the other hand, AKG and Sennheiser corporate headquarters in Europe seem to sending mixed messages. AKG's overseas corporate support sternly repeats (in standard, cut-and-paste feedback) that they "can neither confirm nor deny" the existence of headphone break-in." However, they counter that changes in sound may be the result of ear pad break-in. (Strangely, this is like substituting one kind of mechanical break-in for another.) Conversely, AKG U.S. support advises that their K701 headphones should get 300 hours of break-in. Sennheiser's official line is that premium headphones like the HD600 or HD650 sound great out of the box. Outside headquarters, however, they admit that several hours of break-in loosens the drivers and make the sound more fluid.

But in a way, it makes sense. One can understand why corporate support would be less than enthusiastic in admitting that their $300+ headphones weren't 100% perfect on arrival. Is a break-in of 300 hours - as reported with some AKGs - the kind of thing you want on your promotional material? Conversely, would it be sensible for AKG to even acknowledge a "change" that is so controversial and unproven?"

This is one of those areas where opinions are divided - and that division is clear amongst different contributors to this forum.

John Willett (who used to work for Sennheiser/Neumann) will quote manufacturer guidance that some headphones perform better when broken-in. Hugh Robjohns reckons there's validity in the argument that something requiring mechanical movement will 'loosen-up' (my terminology) for improved results over a period of time.

Others, such as RB claim that it's all nonsense...

Doesn't get you much farther, but that's how things are in the great "Break-in or not?" debate.

Regarding breaking in headphones (and monitors), the most important aspect is YOU the listener adapting to a new listening experience - in other words you have to break yourself in!

By the time you have listened to all your reference material and fully adapted to how the new headphones sound any changes, any further changes due to "breaking in" are likely to be minimal.

In fact I'm now wondering what part psycho acoustic adaption plays in the breaking down process?

Bob

--------------------
www.bickerton.co.nz

I've got involved in these arguments before, and I don't really want to go through them again. It's just that, as I'm around academic psychologists a lot, I know what they would say about this matter. And what they would say is this: if the speakers/phones sound different after a few days/week, how do you know that isn't just your brain adapting to the new sound of the new gear?

>if so would mixing on them before they're 'broken in' mean that i'm not getting an accurate sound?

You're not getting an 'accurate' sound anyway, whatever the truth of the debate! Particularly with the lower end.

But whatever the truth, it is probably a good idea to listen to albums you know well on them as much as you can for a few days, to get used to them (or to break them in, if that's what's happening). You can leave them overnight with music playing through them if you really want, although I wouldn't bother.

The bottom line is that it really doesn't matter. Those who accept the notion of 'running in' will do so and be quite happy. Those who don't, won't... and will still be quite happy.

Meanwhile the bladder will cut and paste his prior opinions to state it's al rubbish, and i'll continue to offer my experience which is that it can be an audible factor in some (not all) cases... But it really isn't worth getting hot and bothered about.

HD650s are great headphones straight out of the box. You might think you learn to hear more detail as you get used to them, or maybe they 'loosen up' with use and work even better... but they're still great phones.

Interestingly, I bought my first ever brand new car a little over a year ago. I am in no doubt whatsoever that the way the engine performed improved steadily over the first 500-700 miles. It noticeably 'loosened up', started to rev more willingly, and fuel economy improved quite significantly. Funny, that.

Hugh

--------------------
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

---

It noticeably 'loosened up', started to rev more willingly, and fuel economy improved quite significantly. Funny, that.

Hugh

---

Or you simply became more relaxed and at ease in the car, drove less tentatively...

Have I just taken the bait?

Every brand new car I've ever bought has had an extended running in time. It's generally around 20-30,000 miles & it's known as the 'until my wife gets bored of it' period.

Whilst I've never really noticed an improvement in headphones over time, I have noticed that if you replace an old pair with an identical pair, they never seem quite as good. Also if there is any truth in 'running in' speakers, shouldn't this by extension apply equally to microphones?

DM

--------------------
Not much in life worth running for. Or from.

The sound of my K701s changed over time - if it's going to happen then it's going to happen, whether you like it or not, so why stress about it?

I certainly wouldn't do anything to 'run them in' - I'd just use them and worry about something more important in life!

--------------------
An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

I am 100% with Red on this one. "Springs" do not wear out, they can be broken however if deformed into their plastic phase.

Then, the point that if something can "wear in" it can "wear out" is never discussed. Car engines wear out, speakers made of the materials RB mentions do not. Indeed we have a thread about some old KEFs. I cannot recall anyone saying "Ooo those cones and supensions will be well knackerd by now". No, speakers last decades* unless they are so old that they come into the guitar "primitive" catagory.

Hugh says "not worth getting getting heated up about". Hugh, WTGR you never get heated up about ANYTHING! (and if SoS has a fault it is perhaps this bland "fence sitting".I think most of us think sometimes "FCS strap a pair on!").

Either cans and speakers are to spec out of the box or not and IF these product need running in it should be done in production and the customer spared the confusion.

*The rev' electrolytics might stand a lookyatty but that is chemistry not mechanics!

Dave.

When I first got married...(Edited for decorum)

By the time our fifth anniversary came around ...(Edited for decorum)

...so take from that what you will.

--------------------
Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

Quote ef37a:

---

I am 100% with Red on this one. "Springs" do not wear out, they can be broken however if deformed into their plastic phase.

---

Hmmmmm, that's the whole mattress industry negated then.

--------------------
www.myspace.com/shambolic-charm

Quote Dynamic Mike:

---

Or you simply became more relaxed and at ease in the car, drove less tentatively...

---

Don't think so. Comparing the experience of driving a (well run-in) loan car of the same type against the new one (when it was new) suggested that the new one was initially less responsive. And driving the loan car again when the new car was older suggested that the difference had diminished. Seems pretty convincing of 'running-in' to me. Of course, it might not just be the engine -- could be gearbox, drive shaft, differential, wheel bearings and all the rest 'bededing in' too...

Quote:

---

Also if there is any truth in 'running in' speakers, shouldn't this by extension apply equally to microphones?

---

Depends on the microphone. The running-in thing is all about the changing compliance of the diaphragm surround -- the bit that continually flexes back and forth. The movement in a microphone is tiny, and in the case of capacitor mics is virtually non-existent. Consequently, the effect is pretty negligible... but if you compare two mics of the same type where one always lives in kick drums and the other only faces more delicate sources you may well hear a difference.

Case study: I once borrowed the RE20 presenter mic from a radio studio to supplement the RE20 routinely used (over many years) as a kick drum mic, for a kit with dual kick drums. The difference in sound quality between these two ostensibly identical mics was very obvious. Whether that was due to a stretched diaphragm or flexible surround fatigue (AKA running-in) I can't say.... but it was very obvious! Clearly something about the mic changed and it is logical to assume that the regular and significant diaphragm movement caused by kick drum thumps (as opposed to a softly spoken DJ) might have been the source!

Hugh

--------------------
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote ef37a:

---

I am 100% with Red on this one. "Springs" do not wear out, they can be broken however if deformed into their plastic phase.

---

True... but when was the last time you saw a headphone diaphragm (or a loudspeaker cone for that matter) suspended with metal springs? You're not comparing apples with apples are you?

Quote:

---

Then, the point that if something can "wear in" it can "wear out" is never discussed.

---

Are you telling me you've never seen a speaker with a clapped out suspension? Really?

Quote:

---

Indeed we have a thread about some old KEFs. I cannot recall anyone saying "Ooo those cones and supensions will be well knackerd by now".

---

Funny how Fay Spook was pointing out in that thread how valuable the drivers were and how difficult it is to find replacements... Wonder why that might be?

Quote:

---

Hugh says "not worth getting getting heated up about". Hugh, WTGR you never get heated up about ANYTHING!

---

I'm a LIbra -- a naturally well balanced person... But seriously, it's a lost cause. Those that have heard it know about it. Those that refuse to believe it will go on refusing until they hear it for themselves. It makes no difference to me either way... but while the nay-sayers deny it I think it's only fair to offer the alternative viewpoint from the basis of my own experience. There aren't that many people around who have listened critically to as many new and run-in speakers (or headphones) as me...

Quote:

---

Either cans and speakers are to spec out of the box or not and IF these product need running in it should be done in production and the customer spared the confusion.

---

We've already discussed countless times why speaker and headphone manufacturers don't want to spend time and money on extended run-in periods, and also why many are reluctant to openly state that their products aren't fully optimised out of the box -- although we have also discussed those that do.

I really don't understand the difficulty in accepting the concept. When have you ever bought a new pair of shoes and not found they become more comfortable after wearing them for a few days or weeks! Are there any shoe makers that 'run-in' their shoes before delivering to the customer?

H

--------------------
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

---

Case study: I once borrowed the RE20 presenter mic from a radio studio to supplement the RE20 routinely used (over many years) as a kick drum mic, for a kit with dual kick drums. The difference in sound quality between these two ostensibly identical mics was very obvious. Whether that was due to a stretched diaphragm or flexible surround fatigue (AKA running-in) I can't say.... but it was very obvious! Clearly something about the mic changed and it is logical to assume that the regular and significant diaphragm movement caused by kick drum thumps (as opposed to a softly spoken DJ) might have been the source!

---

The source is long-since lost in the mists of time, but I recall being told or reading that you should never use a dynamic mic that's been used extensively on kick duties for something like speech or vocals. I can see the logic and have always adhered to that...

Quote The Red Bladder:

---

All hi-fi and monitor drivers for mid and bass have soft suspensions such as a rubber surround or a cloth surround that allows the driver to move forward and back fully and completely, like a piston.

---

Really? Thats electrostatics (QUADs), ribbons (Apogees), isodynamics (Manepan), BMRs (some Cambridge and others), speakers like this

http://www.fertinacoustics.com/hp21_eng.html

etc etc stuffed then.

Also a lot of what you talk about is fatigue in the drivers, aka are they knackered. What we are talking about here are the tiny changes to drivers as they run in- sort of fatigue but not knackered if you see the difference? There are plenty of T/S measurements on line showing drivers before and after running in. Put that into a system with some electrolytic capacitors and a change of environment from a cold warehouse into a warm studio (and dopes and glues etc curing from 99.9% to 100%) and you can see how a speaker system will alter from day one.

Have a look here

http://www.fink-audio.net/?category_name=driveunits

they have probably designed/consulted on some speakers you have heard. Have you seen a frequency response curve of a loudspeaker? If they were pistonic do you think they would look like they do?

OK I am picking up on one point but you obviously know something about speakers and this error stuck out.

Edited by Hugh Robjohns (15/07/12 03:36 PM)

Quote Mike Stranks:

---

A cynic might suggest that vendors have everything to gain from customers getting used to their expensive headphones - equating break-in to a sales tool. But the very opposite might be the case. Manufacturers like Sennheiser say that their products sound great out of the box (which is largely true), but privately admit that they improve after break-in. Apparently, they're sensitive to the notion that their product might be less than 100% perfect on delivery.

---

Mike, I don't know where you got that quote from, but it is best described as the opposite of the truth. I used to know old Professor Sennheiser and I have spoken to his son several times on this and other subjects. (They both had very strong opinions on education of engineers and feared for the German system of Technische Hochschulen, if the malaise effecting technical education in the UK and the US were ever to be allowed to spread into Germany- but that is a different debate!)

Not only did they both poo-poo the idea of running in of transducers in general, but they both (privately) found it quite funny - as did the head of R&D at Genelec.

Quote Mike Stranks:

---

even a modest skeptic might conclude it's all an example of group-think with fewer facts than opinions.

---

That bit is definitely on the money! This is all part of the study 'strength of materials' and the specific subjects of elasticity and fatigue in particular. If any of you want to find out why some materials cannot fatigue ever, because they are just too thin and you want to find out more about elasticity of materials, there are several interesting articles on Wikipedia. Also have a shoofti at the subject of plasticity of materials.

It's all good!

Morning Red.
My larning' about springs came whilst investigating spring air rifles. Whilst it was found that springs in "sporting" rifles lost power after a few years, even overnight in some cases! Match grade rifles would go for decades and record muzzle velocity variations of only a few fps.

The difference was. Match rifles are NEVER cocked, i.e. spring compessed, until a few seconds before shot. They are never "dry fired". They are never improperly lubricated, a practice often done to sporters resulting in detonation in the air chamber resulting in the piston returning with enough force to not only snap the spring but "concertina" it so that coils wrap into each other. Likewise an engine valve spring CAN break but it is such a rare event that the point about properly stressed spings lasting for ever (be they valve springs or spiders etc!)is largely true.

Dave.

Quote ef37a:

---

My larning' about springs came whilst investigating spring air rifles.

---

Interesting... but still not relevant to the suspension mechanics and materials employed in headphones and speakers!

hugh

--------------------
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

---

Quote ef37a:

---

My larning' about springs came whilst investigating spring air rifles.

---

Interesting... but still not relevant to the suspension mechanics and materials employed in headphones and speakers!

hugh

---

I don't see why not? A good spring is a good spring. If certain speakers do not use good springs they will wear in and wear out, e.g. totally thrashed V12 30s!

Dave.

My personal approach is to read the manual, if it does not mention it I don't think a great deal about it tbh. I have no problem with things altering their sound slightly it could happen and I think we have to accept these changes are likely to be very subtle in most instances. It makes sense to me that electronic (especially valve) / transducers may settle down after a nominal period of use. Valve gear is put on 30mins before it gets used for it to settle here. As far as brand new gear well I judge based on what gear it is. I doubt a great deal of sonic difference will occur between a new set of cans for example played at 90dB (not on your ears mind you) would sound much different after 8 hours vs 200 hours. A common sense approach seems to apply.

I mean in summer your kit probably jumps it's internal temperature by some degrees if you do not have any air con and I cannot say I have heard a great difference thus far.

Does the same apply to mics? Maybe you should have new dynamic mics in front of a kick drum for 24 hours so the diaphragm/coil loosen? I think not.

SafeandSound Mastering
Audio mastering

We know that the brain adjusts to new patterns of perceptual input, such as when you get used to a new taste. The brain even adjusts quite quickly to wearing special glasses that turn your vision upside down -- within a few weeks you start seeing the world the right way up again. It seems a fairly uncontroversial psychological contention that faced with a new audio system the brain of an audio engineer, who spends a lot of time listening closely to sound, is going to notice the difference. It's also fairly uncontroversial that after a while that brain will get used to the new sound.

Possibly there are also changes occuring in the materials of a new set of speakers or headphones that also cause the sound to change over the first few weeks. But I think the onus is on whoever is putting forward such a claim in any specific case to back that up with more than just a hypothetical scenario of how that could happen. This, of course, would be difficult to do in practise. You could try to test the audio output of a group of new speakers/headphones with a group that has been 'run in', but any differences are unlikely to be very big and there will be arguments over how any differences translate perceptually. Or you could test two sets of groups (preferably audio engineers who currently use the same equipment -- you can see why this would be difficult to do!). One group would test speakers/headphones which are new, and the other would use the same speakers/headphones which they are told are new, and which look new, but which in fact have already been 'run in' for a few weeks. The aim would be to see if there is a significant difference between the groups in regard to what they report.

Hugh, I'm not that persuaded by the new car story. I took possession of a used car recently. I really noticed the difference in how it drove compared to my old car. I thought in some ways it didn't drive as well as my old car. However, after a few weeks it seems to me to be driving much more smoothly, and it feels much more natural to drive now, and better than my old car. Were it a new car, I could easily imagine myself believing that the car itself had improved, when it clearly hasn't, it's just that I've got used to the car. I'm not denying that new engines do change in their first few weeks or months, and perhaps they do improve. But it's difficult to disentangle how much of this is psychology, and how much the car itself improving. Same with speakers and headphones -- it's very likely that some amount of perceptual adjustment is occuring. Possibly there is also a change in the actual sound as well, but disentagling the two (if both are occuring) isn't going to be easy.

Quote Scramble:

---

Hugh, I'm not that persuaded by the new car story. I took possession of a used car recently. I really noticed the difference in how it drove compared to my old car. I thought in some ways it didn't drive as well as my old car. However, after a few weeks it seems to me to be driving much more smoothly, and it feels much more natural to drive now, and better than my old car. Were it a new car, I could easily imagine myself believing that the car itself had improved, when it clearly hasn't, it's just that I've got used to the car. I'm not denying that new engines do change in their first few weeks or months, and perhaps they do improve. But it's difficult to disentangle how much of this is psychology, and how much the car itself improving. Same with speakers and headphones -- it's very likely that some amount of perceptual adjustment is occuring. Possibly there is also a change in the actual sound as well, but disentagling the two (if both are occuring) isn't going to be easy.

---

Well just to throw some mud in the 'cars and running-in' waters...

Back in the early 80s I bought a used car in excellent nick and low mileage - 4 years old and less than 24,000 on the clock. Owned by a retired Oxford professor who was now a knight of the realm. I bought this car having driven an identical model for 4 years which was now getting past its best... But the new one didn't drive well at all... virtually no acceleration and very sluggish to rev. Took it back and told the salesman who explained that it probably had never been revved above the equivalent of 45mph in top gear. "Try running it in a bit" he said. I did and he was right...

Fool that I was, I sold it two years later to a friend. It eventually gave up the ghost with 190,000 on the clock!

Quote Scramble:

---

We know that the brain adjusts to new patterns of perceptual input, such as when you get used to a new taste.

---

I found my hd25s incredibly sibilant when I first got them. Over a period of a few weeks the sibilance seemed to soften and become more nuanced.

Coincidentally all my other 'phones became noticably lacking in top end detail over the same time period.

How strange.

--------------------
Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

I admire Shufflebeat's dedication to the job, running those headphones in at full volume on a true anatomically correct model :-)

Other than him, you've all missed a trick. What is the point of running in headphones unless they are run in against a resistive surface? Leaving them on in the corner of a room- pah. They're just driving air.

Clearly there is a gap in the market and I intend to corner this with
Turtles Industries H-BIT (Headphone-Breaker-Inner-Thingumabob)* (patent pending).

The discerning audio mixer will appreciate
-a boundary layer of close-woven surface materials overlying a high quality mixed density acoustic core
- low total mass to reproduce anticipated intracranial status of the end user
- spontaneous true-random fibre baffling to reduce in-phase transfer across opposing drivers.
- bespoke finishes available at extra cost.

Yours for only £150 + postage.




*any similarity to £1.50 Ikea cushions is entirely coincidental

Quote ef37a:

---

I don't see why not? A good spring is a good spring.

---

Okay, so you show me a speaker that uses metal springs As a suspension and we'll continue the discussion. In the meantime, I'm going to find some metal shoes that won't wear out...

Hugh

--------------------
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote turtles:

---

...on a true anatomically correct model.

---

You've not seen the pictures then?

--------------------
Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

As a doctor, it would be against my professional courtesy to go beyond 'anatomically correct' and stray into 'aesthetically displeasing'.
:-)

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

---

Quote ef37a:

---

I don't see why not? A good spring is a good spring.

---

Okay, so you show me a speaker that uses metal springs As a suspension and we'll continue the discussion. In the meantime, I'm going to find some metal shoes that won't wear out...

Hugh

---

Does not have to be metal (as well you know!) but in anycase you have lost some credibilty by believing in astrology!
Dave.

Hunter S. Thompson - "No man is so foolish but he may sometimes give another good counsel, and no man so wise that he may not easily err if he takes no other counsel than his own. He that is taught only by himself has a fool for a master."

Sometimes, the less we know, the more we think we know. The more we know, the more we realise how little we know. If we don’t know enough to achieve success, then we can suffer a dual burden. Not only do we come to the wrong conclusions and make unfortunate choices, but our incompetence robs us of the ability to realise that we are incompetent.

Once again, the SOS forum answers the age old philosophical question 'Does a group of guys who don't know what they are talking about, know more or less than one guy who does not know what he is talking about?'

Quote The Red Bladder:

---

Hunter S. Thompson - "No man is so foolish but he may sometimes give another good counsel, and no man so wise that he may not easily err if he takes no other counsel than his own. He that is taught only by himself has a fool for a master."

Sometimes, the less we know, the more we think we know. The more we know, the more we realise how little we know. If we don’t know enough to achieve success, then we can suffer a dual burden. Not only do we come to the wrong conclusions and make unfortunate choices, but our incompetence robs us of the ability to realise that we are incompetent.

Once again, the SOS forum answers the age old philosophical question 'Does a group of guys who don't know what they are talking about, know more or less than one guy who does not know what he is talking about?'

---

Or? Tell a big enough lie (sort of, no offense to others!)loudly enough and often enough and it will be taken as fact.

Dave.

Gandhi - "An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it."

Quote The Red Bladder:

---

Gandhi - "An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it."

---

Heh! I loved his response when asked what he thought about western civilization "I think it would be a very good idea" !!

Dave.

Quote turtles:

---

As a doctor, it would be against my professional courtesy to go beyond 'anatomically correct' and stray into 'aesthetically displeasing'.
:-)

---

You have seen the pictures.

--------------------
Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

Russ Andrews always advises customers to allow for a "running in" period on any new audio cables, speaker cables or mains cables, as it takes the copper a while to "get used to" the electricity running through them.


Who could argue with Russ Andrews? It can't be easy for them, all those 240V rotating phasors oscillating at 50 hertz...


I am minded though of Douglas Adams...
"It feels unpleasantly like being drunk"
"What's wrong with being drunk?"
"Ask a glass of water".

--------------------
~~~ A weasel hath not such a deal of spleen as you are tossed with! www.feline1.co.uk ~~~

I had a pair of HD650s, and they certainly sounded better after "breaking them in".

However, some if the break-in period was probably down to me just getting used to the tone of the cans.

--------------------
www.thediplomatz.com

I have a pair too (I love them!) ... I haven't noticed their tone changing in the first 100 hours, but I have noticed my ears getting more used to their nuances. COINCIDENCE??

--------------------
~~~ A weasel hath not such a deal of spleen as you are tossed with! www.feline1.co.uk ~~~

The obvious problem with these arguments is that very few people actually have the opportunity to compare new and old (or run-in) directly. So few have any reliable basis from which to offer reliable comment. All I can say is that I have been able to compare many different headphones and speakers, both against known references and in a-b comparisons between new/older models. From that kind of experience over thirty-odd years I'm absolutely certain that I have heard the effect called 'running-in' several times. It's not something that seems to affect all devices, or all of them to the same degree of audibility. Many show no signs at all. Most are pretty subtle. A few are quite dramatic. But I am certain it does affect some systems... End of!

H

--------------------
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Put it this way....If you have to break 'em in or not it's gonna happen anyway.