I've integrated more hardware into my studio than ever before and love the difference it makes. What I'd like to do now is add a nice hardware stereo bus compressor.

I do mainly rock/ pop and ballads and tend to use the Waves SSL4000 plug or the PSP Vintage Warmer 2. I've got a Liquid Mix too but have never really got on with it.

For a max £300 spend am I going to get something second hand that will give me quality over expensive plugs like that?

Cheers

Six

It's a difficult one this. For rock and pop stuff you really want that SSL thing. It's not that other things don't work, of course they do but the typical sound for that sort of music is that SSL bus compressor, and if I had to have one bit of gear outside the box for mixing it'd probably be that. A lot of people make clones of that design, and at that budget I'd think your only option might be to try to make one up from a kit, or have someone do it for you. You do quite often see them up for sale. But obviously there's a problem there...How good is that kit, that particular set of components? I mean, already you're slightly hampered because the original E series SSL desk compressor was a discrete VCA, and from I think G onwards they used an IC. The G compressor is still fairly crunchy in really cool way that none of the new ones match because the THAT IC's have been 'upgraded' since the 384. SSL say that the reissued G bus compressor (the white one) is the same as it always has been. It isnt. It's cleaner. So are other similar designs, the Obsidian, the Roll Music etc, and I believe the Smarts too. And that issue will present itself with any self built clone. But that won't mean it's not good. It's a gamble though.

So should you stick with software? Well, I got together with some colleagues and did a shootout between my 384 and the latest greatest plug ins...Waves SSL, Glue, VSC2 etc etc. The difference was actually quite shocking. The hardware was way better. It made the kick and snare sound so tight and focused, sort of cutting and present. The software was a strange mixed bag. Some plug ins made everything move backwards away from the listener, and some seemed to do that on either the kick or the snare. The distortion element of compression which is what does such a nice thing in outboard is still lacking in the computer, and the mix is such a sensitive place to put something like that. I was expecting it to be closer, and some of my colleagues were pretty upset about the difference having put themselves in a position where they were relying on software to do this job. I think at the moment, having done that experiment, I would not put any software compressor on my bus, and would just leave it off altogether if hardware wasn't an option. At the moment.

So what other options are there...well isn't there some ADK compressor that's supposed to be good and a bit cheaper?

There are some great compressors in your price range...You might pick up RNC's or DBX's for that money, but are they the right thing to put across the mix? Well that's the big question isn't it. Depends what you want that bus compressor to do...Is it adding cut and attack, punch? OR is it just glueing things together a bit. If it's just the glue thing then I think I'd try an RNC and see where that led. I mean it's so cheap that you can't go too wrong. If it's the cutting SSL thing, then I don't know. Demo a used clone I guess, if that's possible.

J

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www.jackruston.com

I appreciate that, Jack. Thank you.

What's your opinion on the SSL X Rack and the G Series bus compressor they released in the modular format. Okay it's £1000 above my budget new but sale of a few unused items would go towards getting there.

I've never been one for false economy. Buy cheap, buy twice etc.

I've not used the bus compressor in that form factor...only the eq's and dynamics modules. And I didn't really like them all that much. They were just sort of clean and a bit uninspiring. I also found them fragile. They're worryingly light too and I suppose the power supply differences must account for that. I much prefer the sound of my older SSL stuff to those. I'm sure people could come up with ten reasons why they're exactly the same, but that's not my experience of them.

J

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www.jackruston.com

Back at base I use a pair of Focusrite Liquid Channels set to 384 emulation (patched digitally) and these do give me 90% of the feel of the 384, as I recall it, though I've never A/B-ed them. Though I suspect I don't get the same cushion-y feel when I push it hard, the emulation is good enough. Still well above budget though. The advantage of my LCs is the additional functionality they bring with them as (very good) pre's and (OK) EQs, which helps them earn their keep.

My 'secret weapon' Drawmer M500 is actually really good for rock, in that it adds weight and urgency to a mix. It's also a great compressor for the drum buss, or individual drums, especially snare and toms. Its interface is prone to scaring people away though! Shop around and you might well drop on one of these.

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

+1 to everything Jack said.

On clones, I can speak from experience and say that the quality varies. I've built one and bought one second hand and the two sound worlds apart. And they don't sound the same as the commercial clones (Serpent, TK Audio) that I've tried. If you want a second hand DIY version, try the markets over at Group DIY (what was Prodigy Pro). You'll be looking at £300-450 for a decent build. If you go the DIY route, it's easy enough but *very* time consuming and there's some fiddly soldering, so I recommend you tackle other projects first (like those Classic API preamps Jack keeps banging on about )

While I agree about the difficulty of getting that authentic 'crunch' of the early SSLs, one benefit of some of the clones is that they've been tweaked to include things like wet/dry controls, different side-chain filters and so on. And that makes them versatile and easy to set up. To my mind, the best value commercial offering is probably the TK Audio BC1 MkII. You can slam it a little harder than the SSL and back off on the blend knob. Gives decent results to my ears. But it *is* designed to sound quite clean, and it is over your budget.

Also... in terms of plug-ins, I did a rather unscientific shootout of software models of various SSL buss compressors (Duende, Cytomic, Waves, UA, Liquid Mix... alongside some hardware). Cytomic's The Glue sounded to me to be the best by quite some distance; not to mention the most versatile. Whether it's the most 'authentic' is another matter.

For the money you're talking about, you'll be hard pressed to get hardware that does that thing. As Jack says there are some other options, but they'll give you a different sound. One wildcard option would be the Focusrite Compounder, which was one of the few bits of Focusrite Platinum gear I really liked. It's really versatile and the second hand prices are stupidly low. What it won't do is give you that SSL thing...

When I said ADK I was thinking of that Tk Audio one. Haven't tried it though.

The issue of mods to the SSL circuit is an interesting one. It's certainly nice to have the option to filter the sidechain as you can on the Obsidian for example. But again it does change the sound. Part of the thing with those SSLs is that they do emphasise high mids in favour of bass. The sound is bright and adds point. When you start taking that away you get something different again. Not that that's necessarily bad.

J

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www.jackruston.com

Quote Jack Ruston:

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If it's just the glue thing then I think I'd try an RNC and see where that led. I mean it's so cheap that you can't go too wrong.

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And the RNC is a good box to have around for a multitude of tasks. I'll often use it on sources on the way into the box - a hangover from the days of tape perhaps but it really helps to smooth things out and it isn't out of place in an otherwise expensive vocal chain.

James.

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JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

I have never heard the RNC but hear it's pretty good for the money. Unbalanced I/O. Nothing sub £300.00 springs to mind really (even second hand) as being an ideal solution as devices that add something nice tend to cost a lot of money. I have heard a few people report that the SSL clones can be quite bright/thin depending on build/design and components. Might be just the trick for the genres you mention. The experimenter in me would quite like to hear a pair of those COMP54's across a mix but my concern is stereo tracking/tolerances and noise in that design. I guess you can hit them hard to reduce that final concern but currently not willing to take that risk.

I think James is probably right here RNC got to be worth a shot, I doubt you would lose on a second hand purchase if it is not your flavour re-sell it for the same money.

No guarantee at £300.00 better results would come from hardware.

SafeandSound Mastering
Audio mastering

Quote Jack Ruston:

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When I said ADK I was thinking of that Tk Audio one. Haven't tried it though.

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It's really good for the money. But as I say, it might be a little cleaner than you like. I think they came out with a 'mastering' version that is even cleaner... so probably heading in the opposite direction to your declared tastes, Jack.

Quote SafeandSound Mastering:

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The experimenter in me would quite like to hear a pair of those COMP54's across a mix but my concern is stereo tracking/tolerances

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I tend to use them set up as an MS compressor. Works well for me on the buss like that.

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and noise in that design. I guess you can hit them hard to reduce that final concern but currently not willing to take that risk.

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The design means that it is inherently a bit noisy, just as the 2254 and 33609 are, but it's never been a problem, particularly on the buss: it's one thing introducing noise while tracking, where you're most likely going to need to ride levels and further process in the mix; it's another when it's almost the last thing in the chain, unless you're going to L3 it to death...

Ah ok, but there's no reason why my tastes should dictate anything of course. I just think that normally when people post asking for a hardware bus compressor it's because they want to hear it doing something, rather than have totally invisible level control. But then I still think a demo of the RNC might be worthwhile. It's so cheap, and as James says it has other uses. I think if you're happy with something clean then it's got to be on the shortlist.

Here's another idea...Try the RNC or possibly the TK for compression. But use a line to mic pad, and a mic amp with transformers (which possibly you already have?) in front of that to add colour? It'll be its own thing, but it might be cool. In my rig I use a folcrom which knocks everything down to mic level, then a Buzz mic amp with the transformer option (or the transformerless outs if I want it totally transparent and fast), then the bus compressor, and then an analogue tape simulation. It works really well. The Folcrom is transparent, the Buzz adds colour depending on the outputs...with the transformers it's a bit more thumpy and harmonic, the SSL is crunchy attack, and the anamod just knocks some corners off and adds subtle harmonics...depth, colour etc. It sounds good but it certainly doesn't all come from one box. Obviously that's a super expensive chain, but it doesn't mean that a similar sort of idea couldn't work on a budget.

J

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www.jackruston.com

This looks interesting, from memory it wasn't badly priced either (£4-500? I think)

http://www.tfpro.com/p38v8.html

He also makes a version of it on special request with a compression mix knob to get a similar effect of parallel compression where you can mix the dry signal with the compressed sound

Edited by vinyl_junkie (18/07/12 12:37 PM)

I owned a Joe Meek SC2.2 for a while but whilst it was quite a nice box it was fiddly to set it up (pretty fast in my experience of opticals) and did not have a side chain so it was moved along, right budget point though unlike some of these suggestions. This was replaced with the HCL Varis which is an absolute steal if you can find them second hand although again more costly. (like this cause it can be quite spritely for a Vari-Mu)

SafeandSound Mastering
Audio mastering

Quote The Elf:

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Back at base I use a pair of Focusrite Liquid Channels set to 384 emulation (patched digitally) and these do give me 90% of the feel of the 384, as I recall it, though I've never A/B-ed them.

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I have got a Liquid Mix in the studio but have never really pressed it into service. I might have a comparison test of that against the Waves SSL stuff and see what it sounds like.

Jack is right. I DO want the bus compressor to add something to the mix. The problem is I don't have the access to the hardware for test other than renting it..... and my local pro audio place doesn't tend to have that type of kit available.

Something else I've looked at is the Golden Age Project Comp54 - A clone of the 2254 which Waves modeled in the V Series (which I also have). I'd like to have a look at that but I'm not sure it'll be something for the stereo bus. Maybe an insert on my SSL Alpha channel.

I'm not adverse to spending money on gear (like most of us hey) but getting the right kit at the right price and it making a difference to the sound is important.

Quote _ Six _:

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I have got a Liquid Mix in the studio but have never really pressed it into service. I might have a comparison test of that against the Waves SSL stuff and see what it sounds like.

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Do persevere with the LM. It can be quite rewarding. The quality of the 'images' is very variable though, with some sounding great and others rather less so. One thing I've found with the LM when ABing with other stuff (software and hardware) is that while it's great at imparting character (compared with many modelling plug-ins) it's less great at actually achieving the same amount of gain reduction.

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Jack is right. I DO want the bus compressor to add something to the mix...

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Something else I've looked at is the Golden Age Project Comp54 - A clone of the 2254 which Waves modeled in the V Series (which I also have). I'd like to have a look at that but I'm not sure it'll be something for the stereo bus. Maybe an insert on my SSL Alpha channel.

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Probably aim for something more like the Comp 54 than the TK Audio then. Even with the stock transformers it sounds nice and you can 'upgrade' to the Neve-ish Carnhills later if you want to. Alternatively, just do what Jack suggests and get a pair of preamps with transformers in to give you the colour. And then use another compressor, or decent plug-ins for the actual compression.

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The problem is I don't have the access to the hardware for test other than renting it..... and my local pro audio place doesn't tend to have that type of kit available.

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Sounds like the UK distance selling regulations could be your friend.

As mentioned I would be aware of mismatches between L/R on stereo master with the COMP54, they are mono units and will cost you £700-800.00 for 2 or thereabouts. Look into it before parting with cash on them. I recall tolerance being mentioned in the SOS review maybe this has now been addressed.

SafeandSound Mastering
Audio mastering

Quote SafeandSound Mastering:

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I recall tolerance being mentioned in the SOS review maybe this has now been addressed.

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It's not a major issue in terms of sound, though you might need to trust your ears more than the meters when matching. As I said, though, try using a pair set up as M/S, then the L & R get subjected to identical circuitry... and you have a more versatile setup anyway!

Quote Mixedup:

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Do persevere with the LM. It can be quite rewarding. The quality of the 'images' is very variable though, with some sounding great and others rather less so. One thing I've found with the LM when ABing with other stuff (software and hardware) is that while it's great at imparting character (compared with many modelling plug-ins) it's less great at actually achieving the same amount of gain reduction.

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It may be my imagination but the G384 emulation sounds punchier than the Waves SSL emulation. I like it