I have a large vinyl collection and there are a lot of cds out there being remastered.

I was wondering how true, to the original vinyls, the transfer CDs are.

I have some really good transferred CDs and some really bad ones. So if a CD says "Original recording remastered" does that mean I am getting the original vinyl version?

Are some CDs "remixes" of the old vinyl? I remember a Pink Floyd album being different from the original vinyl. Some of the synths were just way too pronounced.

Thanks

Quote Music Manic:

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I was wondering how true, to the original vinyls, the transfer CDs are.

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Given that the vinyls aren't likely to be that true to the original master tapes anyway, and the remastered versions are usually derived from the master tapes but with much more compression... The answer is 'not very'... In most cases.

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I have some really good transferred CDs and some really bad ones.

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Me to! But in my experience most remastered discs are worse, mainly because of the ludicrous trend of trying to make everything LOUDER than the original.

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So if a CD says "Original recording remastered" does that mean I am getting the original vinyl version?

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Nope, 'fraid not!

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Are some CDs "remixes" of the old vinyl?

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Vinyl is a release format -- you can't remix a release format! But it is quite possible that a CD release might be taken from a different version of the 'master', and almost certain that it will have a different EQ from a Vinyl release because the latter can't cope with stereo bass or high levels of HF. Either of those could account for the perception of a slightly different mix.

H

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Mildly OT, but I (with quite some excitement) bought two "Remastered" Icicle Works CD reissues ("Small price of a bicycle" and "If you want to defeat your enemy..."), and all three discs in each set sound markedly and demonstrably worse than the original (non-chrome) cassette equivalent which I've had for years.

Did a quick spectral analysis and there are basically no frequencies whatsoever above 6Khz. Utterly appalling. Apparently the label were going for a more "Rock" sound.

A re-mastering "engineer" is credited, but how anyone would have the gall to willingly put their name to these audio atrocities is beyond me. My arse could honestly have done a far superior job.

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"We knocked on the doors of Hell's darker chambers..." But no-one answered, so we went to the pub instead.

I occasionally get remastering gigs and the basic problem is the core material. Sometimes I get the original mastering tapes (whoopee!) and sometimes, even the whole shebang, 2" 24 track, master tapes, the lot (even bigger whoopee - tinged with the thought that they will ask for 'improvements' that are often not a good idea!)

If the budget allows, sometimes whole sections can be overlaid with new sounds from either MIDI (in the case of poor drum sounds) or session musicians. I assume this is what happened to the old T-Rex songs that were re-released ages ago. The original recordings were dire (tinny sound and no bass) and the re-release was brilliant (IMO).

But then sometimes all that we get is a copy of the record or a copy of the cassette. We did a whole series of CDs based on some mastering tapes and with some of the material only on very degraded cassettes.

Today, I happen to have to listen to an LP that is supposed to be a major re-release. They tell me that it is the only surviving copy - which I find difficult to believe. It is from the early 60s and I have taken it out of its sleeve and it looks as if it spent a couple of decades as the bottom lining to a parrots cage! The truth is, in these cases, the people owning (or licensing) the copyright are often too lazy to stir their arses and find a better copy.

There was a bit of an outcry a while back on the ELO mailing list as the remastered version of Out of the Blue has shown up some really obvious edits in the source material. To me, these sections have always been obvious (massive change in tone of the drums) but to otheres, the limited quality of vinyl had been masking it for the last forty odd years. In this case, the 24track masters (and any slaves) have long since vanished - their archivist has been searching for years, but the record company was a branch of management and wasn't as organised as it should have been - so they can't go back and fiddle with the source material to clean up it.

Funny enough, the same people are really excited about the re-issue of the vinyl - despite it coming from the same remasters. I expect more gnashing of teeth in due course!



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Veni, Vidi, Aesculi
(I came, I saw, I conkered)

This is a subject I wanted to bring up myself..

I have a few re-mastered CD's that badly clip and are distorted making them for me at least great material for going in the bin.
A lot are also not just louder but have an accented high end making them really uncomfortable to listen to which isn't helped by the stupid loudness.

I don't understand the mentality of these idiots, how can some one like Sony, Warner etc put out this garbage which in effect is faulty/defective and should be recalled, it's not that it's just too loud it's f**** clipping

Another CD I have has an annoying high frequency whine at I'm guessing around 17k on all the orchestral bits recorded, sample rate conversion gone wrong?

Quote vinyl_junkie:

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I have a few re-mastered CD's that badly clip and are distorted making them for me at least great material for going in the bin.

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Before you bin them, can I suggest you try importing them (digitally) into a DAW and reducing the playback level in the DAW by 6dB. Then either listen directly from the DAW, or reburn to a CD (with dithering at the 16 bit level) and try again. It is very possible that the clipping and distortion you are hearing is actually caused by intersample peaks overloading oversampled D-A converters or MP3 filterbanks (if you heard the problem on ripped MP3 files), rather than the actual data on the CD being corrupt at source.

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A lot are also not just louder but have an accented high end making them really uncomfortable to listen to which isn't helped by the stupid loudness.

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Yes. I struggle to understand why any mastering engineer would inflict such obvious damage...

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Another CD I have has an annoying high frequency whine at I'm guessing around 17k on all the orchestral bits recorded, sample rate conversion gone wrong?

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More likely to be interference from the line-drive of a CRT monitor screen (15.625kHz), probably during the session receording or mixing.

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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Another CD I have has an annoying high frequency whine at I'm guessing around 17k on all the orchestral bits recorded, sample rate conversion gone wrong?

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More likely to be interference from the line-drive of a CRT monitor screen (15.625kHz), probably during the session receording or mixing.

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That sort of thing was fairly common on vinyl too. It used to bug me 25 years ago but nowadays I have to be really close to a CRT TV to hear it.

James.

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JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

Really depends on the labels instructions. I have heard some decent re-masters of original pre-loudness war material myself so sometimes it is done very well.

cheers

SafeandSound Mastering
Audio mastering

Quote SafeandSound Mastering:

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I have heard some decent re-masters of original pre-loudness war material myself so sometimes it is done very well.

cheers

SafeandSound Mastering
Audio mastering

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Yea that is true, I have some John Martyn re-masters that I think sound rather good and stand up very well compared to the original vinyls that I have.

Sorry to bring this back up but I did have a bit of a giggle seeing this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKQFs6Da9oY&feature=youtu.be

Audiophile re-press of Doors material on vinyl from errrm tape, but look what's written on the tapes ;-)
16 bit 44.1k master with year of re-master, some are 24bit 96k from 1999
Put price up for vinyl copy and tell them it's analogue purism ahhhh yes :-D

Unless those are the original master tapes but just have the dates of when they were transferred to digital written on them but I know a few re-press vinyls are cut from digital now (Miles Davis, Rolling Stones etc)

Nice to see those old Tannoy dual concentrics though. That's a old Neumann lathe too innit? AM-32 I think by the looks of it

Edited by vinyl_junkie (20/07/12 11:12 PM)

Quote Phil Reynolds:

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A re-mastering "engineer" is credited, but how anyone would have the gall to willingly put their name to these audio atrocities is beyond me. My arse could honestly have done a far superior job.

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Hi Phil!

Examples are required please to establish the credibility of this statement


Martin

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YewTreeMagic

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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Are some CDs "remixes" of the old vinyl?

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Vinyl is a release format -- you can't remix a release format! But it is quite possible that a CD release might be taken from a different version of the 'master', and almost certain that it will have a different EQ from a Vinyl release because the latter can't cope with stereo bass or high levels of HF. Either of those could account for the perception of a slightly different mix.

H

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Tell that to Edgar Froese! He's managed to "remix" virtually all his old solo albums and most Tangerine Dream material by noodling over the top of a copy of the original album. It's like colouring over the Mona Lisa in crayon

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~~~ A weasel hath not such a deal of spleen as you are tossed with! www.feline1.co.uk ~~~

Quote The Red Bladder:

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Sometimes I get the original mastering tapes (whoopee!) and sometimes, even the whole shebang, 2" 24 track, master tapes, the lot ....
But then sometimes all that we get is a copy of the record or a copy of the cassette. We did a whole series of CDs based on some mastering tapes and with some of the material only on very degraded cassettes.
... The truth is, in these cases, the people owning (or licensing) the copyright are often too lazy to stir their arses and find a better copy.

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I've been wallowing in Tangerine Dream remasters recently, and this very much strikes a chord. Seems that for the majority of their Cherry Red Esoteric/Reactive reissues the past two years, no original master tapes have been used - mostly because no-one can find them.
And for those that do, it would mean certain ex-members of the band speaking to other members whom they don't with to, in order to dig them out...
Particularly daft is a CD release of their April 1975 Royal Albert Hall gig - which appears to be getting mastered from a totally unlicensed 2nd gen cassette copy of a "borrowed" 1/4" BBC mastertape (the Beeb made the original recording). I'm currently trying to find out if the actual mastertape still exists. (How would one do this, really? I'm getting nowhere fast. Does the "infax" system still exist, and can anyone on here access it...?)

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~~~ A weasel hath not such a deal of spleen as you are tossed with! www.feline1.co.uk ~~~

Quote feline1:

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Tell that to Edgar Froese! He's managed to "remix" virtually all his old solo albums and most Tangerine Dream material by noodling over the top of a copy of the original album. It's like colouring over the Mona Lisa in crayon

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Wow! I think I'd call that overdubbing rather than remixing, though!

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

I call it vandalism, frankly!
My favourite album of all time is his mellotron-drenched "Epsilon in Malaysian Pale"... you can imagine my dismay when the new "remastered" edition I bought from their website in 2004 turned out to have him playing all over the top of it on what sounded like Korg M1 presets.

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~~~ A weasel hath not such a deal of spleen as you are tossed with! www.feline1.co.uk ~~~

Quote feline1:

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I call it vandalism, frankly!
My favourite album of all time is his mellotron-drenched "Epsilon in Malaysian Pale"... you can imagine my dismay when the new "remastered" edition I bought from their website in 2004 turned out to have him playing all over the top of it on what sounded like Korg M1 presets.

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That sounds like a nightmare I once had where I was being chased by a M1 and all my music sounded like General MIDI

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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Quote feline1:

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Tell that to Edgar Froese! He's managed to "remix" virtually all his old solo albums and most Tangerine Dream material by noodling over the top of a copy of the original album. It's like colouring over the Mona Lisa in crayon

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Wow! I think I'd call that overdubbing rather than remixing, though!

hugh

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On a similar note, if any of your old vinyl is by ZZ Top, then for gods sake dont buy the remastered cds. After the commercial success of Eliminator, they 're-mastered' their great-sounding early albums for CD release, and replaced all the nice dry understated 1970s drum sounds with horrible drum-machine samples with a great big 80s reverb on them. They also did some other hideous and unspeakable things to the audio by the sounds of it. Nooooo...

On a different note, the remaster of Elton John's Tumbleweed Connection is very good indeed, at least judging by the 320kbps mp3s. I've got the CD on order as well as a mint 1970 vinyl pressing. Will report back!

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Battle flags are flown at the feet of a garden gnome.

Quote Richard Graham:

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On a similar note, if any of your old vinyl is by ZZ Top, then for gods sake dont buy the remastered cds. After the commercial success of Eliminator, they 're-mastered' their great-sounding early albums for CD release, and replaced all the nice dry understated 1970s drum sounds with horrible drum-machine samples with a great big 80s reverb on them. They also did some other hideous and unspeakable things to the audio by the sounds of it. Nooooo...

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Ah yes ZZ Top exactly. The Tres Hombres, and Fandango albums were re-done and sound good. Deguello didn't go down the reverb road and is supposed to be close to the original.
I've heard that they got Billy to re-record some stuff on those badly remastered albums. Unreal! Was there a problem at the time with the master/copyright holders? Maybe, seeing there was an acrimonious split when Bill Ham got them signed to Warner Bros.

Maybe your on about the first Tres Hombres CD? The expanded 2006 copy (which I have) sounds fine.
Tres Hombres CDs


Also here's a link from the ZZ Top website confirming what you say:

Bad ZZ Top CDs