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OverDrawn



Joined: 22/07/12
Posts: 25
Loc: United Kingdom
Need help choosing the right stuff to purchase new
      #999301 - 22/07/12 11:31 PM
Hello everybody,
Just got a loan for a completely new PA. I rush to purchase these items. Can you please answer my questions below. Will really appreciate it

(Mixer)
PreSonus StudioLive 16.4 (1700 pounds)

(Amps)
Crown XTi2000 Series (520 pounds)


(Effects Rack)
DBX 1231 (250 pounds)


(MiCs)
Shure SM58 (x2) (90 pounds each)
Shure DMK57-52 (460 pounds)

(Speakers)
JBL MRX515 (x2) (580 pounds each)

(Stage monitors)
JBL MRX512M (x4) (550 pounds each)

(Subwoofer)
JBL MRX518S (x2) (560 pounds each)


BAND - mainly performing Rock, no keys, no additional instruments.
1. Vocalist + Accoustic Guitarist
2. Back Vocalist + Lead Guitarist
3. Bass Guitarist
4. Drummer


I got some questions.
1. Will XTi2000 suite all of the speakers, subs and monitors? And is it good idea to get a crossover unit? than I could crossover highs and lows from mixing desk, and send to seperate amps.
2. DBX 1231 got two graphic equalisers, so it should help to get rid of feedback from two singers. Do I need the graphic EQs if I use a digital desk, or I got some effects on a desk? (Not really familiar with digital desks).
3. Drum mic kit - so with the chosen kit i can cover kick, snare, two toms, but what about the hi kats, cymbals. Is it a good idea to get two condenser mics to cover the left and right side of the tops?
4. what do you think about speakers? Can I fill a room size of large bar/pub whit this kind of PA? How are they going to interact with chosen amps with crossower or without? It seems pretty good combination to me.
5. All togeather it seems to cost about 7500 pounds, can I make it cheaper if possible, or should I get something more expensive to make it sound even better/louder/richer?
6. Should I change my mixer to Behringer x32? it seems it has only xlr inputs, but sometimes I need Jack inputs as well.
7. What do you think overall? Is the kit fine, or there are some more effective ways of doing this? BTW - I got just 8500 pounds for all the kit.

Thankyou
OverDrawn


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OverDrawn



Joined: 22/07/12
Posts: 25
Loc: United Kingdom
Re: Need help choosing the right stuff to purchase new [Re: OverDrawn]
      #999302 - 22/07/12 11:33 PM
Just to save you time answering those questions in previous post there are the power ratings of amps - Crown XTi2000 Series:
475 W 8 Ohm, 800 W 4 Ohm, 1600 W 8 Ohm
And ratings of the JBL speakers are:
JBL MRX515 (main speakers) - 400/800/1600 W, 8 ohm nominal impedance, 98dB SPL 1w@1m
JBL MRX518S (subs) - 500/1000/2000 w, 4 ohm nominal imp., 94dB 1w@1m
JBL MRX512M (monitor) - 400/800/1600 W, 8 ohm nominal imp., 97dB 1w@1m.

Thankyou


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James PerrettModerator



Joined: 10/09/01
Posts: 10776
Loc: The wilds of Hampshire
Re: Need help choosing the right stuff to purchase new [Re: OverDrawn]
      #999320 - 23/07/12 09:18 AM
I would strongly suggest that you go to a specialist PA dealer and get a demo. If you aren't sure then maybe think about building a system up bit by bit - maybe just going for mains to start with and adding subs later. I would also strongly suggest that you look at used gear - you could get yourself a much nicer system by going secondhand.

James.

--------------------
JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net


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Hugh RobjohnsAdministrator
SOS Technical Editor


Joined: 25/07/03
Posts: 21926
Loc: Worcestershire
Re: Need help choosing the right stuff to purchase new [Re: OverDrawn]
      #999323 - 23/07/12 09:23 AM
Quote OverDrawn:

3. Drum mic kit - so with the chosen kit i can cover kick, snare, two toms, but what about the hi kats, cymbals. Is it a good idea to get two condenser mics to cover the left and right side of the tops?




Yes.

Quote:

6. Should I change my mixer to Behringer x32? it seems it has only xlr inputs, but sometimes I need Jack inputs as well.




The X32 has six aux line inputs, and the XLR inputs can accommodate line inputs too, so no problem there. You can read my review of it here:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/aug12/articles/behringer-x32.htm

hugh

--------------------
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound


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grab



Joined: 08/07/07
Posts: 2923
Loc: Cambridge, UK
Re: Need help choosing the right stuff to purchase new [Re: OverDrawn]
      #999337 - 23/07/12 10:14 AM
I'm worried you're buying all this stuff but your questions are extremely basic. Are you sure you can drive it yourself...?

You're going to need more than one power amp. You need one channels per side for the tops, plus one channel per side (or maybe both channels bridged) for the subs, plus one channel per monitor. By my sums that makes four power amps. You could get by with three if you paired up monitors, but that's your minimum.

Typically a 31-band EQ goes on the outputs - FOH or monitors - before the power amps. Some kind of speaker management would be good too, at least for FOH and perhaps for monitors, so you can use limiters to protect the speakers. This would also do the crossover for FOH. Note that a digi mixer will generally be able to do most of this - certainly the review of the X32 suggests it can - which saves you some money.

You're missing a mic for the guitar amp. Also missing mic stands and cables from the budget. And typically the acoustic and bass would be DI'd, meaning you need at least one DI for the acoustic and maybe two if the bass amp doesn't have a DI out.

You'll typically get a good drum sound from one mic on snare (usually SM57), one on kick, and two condensor overheads. Micing toms is nice but very optional. And with the size of SM57s, they're not usually the best choice since they'll foul the cymbals.


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tacitus



Joined: 04/02/08
Posts: 951
Re: Need help choosing the right stuff to purchase new [Re: OverDrawn]
      #999365 - 23/07/12 01:14 PM
Unless you only have practice amps for your guitars, I'd recommend working first on putting your guitar amp speakers on stands and positioning them so you can hear them and so can the audience. Then I'd get a mixer and the tops of the FOH speakers just for vocals until you have the hang of that. You could get vocal monitors too, at the same time. Then add the subs and start putting more through the PA until you can work the thing comfortably with everything you want. If you're like most bands there'll be plenty of gigs with small audiences when you can be heard easily!

If you already have enough gigs big enough to warrant all the kit straight off, I'd invest in getting some really expert help and some sort of training if you plan to operate the PA yourself. In all honestly, there's so much to know and so little we can realistically tell you with authority 'cos we don't know your situation. Most of us have made mistakes as we've built up PA rigs, but if you do it a bit at a time you'll have smaller disasters and may be able to re-deploy any items that don't work for the intended use. If you buy the whole kit at once, it'll be a lot harder to handle until you've had lots of practice and any mistakes will be harder to work round without selling some components and buying again.

If you think you're going to be doing a lot of gigs to reasonably big audiences you need a sound man. Even when you're really experienced at sound and at playing, doing them together is a major leap in complexity and opportunity for total cock-ups.


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Sam Spoons
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Joined: 23/01/03
Posts: 1237
Loc: Manchester UK
Re: Need help choosing the right stuff to purchase new [Re: OverDrawn]
      #999447 - 23/07/12 09:52 PM
I agree with all above but add the following thoughts. I'd use 12&horn tops not 15's (a little cheaper and aparently integrates with the bass bins a little better). Far be it for me to contradict Hugh but I like one overhead and a HiHat mic live unless I'm using the overhead in lieu of individual tom mics(but, for the kind of stuff I like I only use a kick and single overhead for recording situations :-). I have Crown xTi's and like them a lot but there were reliability issues with early versions (the PA company I work for has 2 and so do I, all four have been back to Harmon for repair) I hope they are now reliable.

You do need a crossover for the mains if you choose passive subs, but a digital desk will have graphics, and if it has a dedicated sub out (or the ability to use a spare aux) it'll probably do xover duties too.


Edited by Sam Spoons (23/07/12 09:57 PM)


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OverDrawn



Joined: 22/07/12
Posts: 25
Loc: United Kingdom
Re: Need help choosing the right stuff to purchase new [Re: OverDrawn]
      #999464 - 24/07/12 06:10 AM
Thankyou everybody for nice response, suggestions and lessons Really appreciate it

The problem of the band is that all of the equipment they got is borrowed or hired. So all of it will go away quite soon. The next big gig is after a month, so we need all kit at once straight away ASAP. We got money, but we don't have time and this is the biggest problem. If we purchase all kit now, I will be able to get familiar with it during one month (two people are working as a sound lads for a band) and band is rehearsing lots of time.

So I updated the list of needed equipment and took in account all the feedback. Can you please take a look again and answer my questions if possible.

(We got all needed cabling, two DI boxes, guitar amp and micing for it)

Stuff I plan to purchase.
(Mixer)
Behringer X32

(Amps)
Crown XTi2000 Series (Set of three amps)

(MiCs)
Shure SM58 (x2)
Shure DMK57-52 (For drum kit)

(Speakers, Mains)
JBL MRX515 (x2)

(Stage monitors)
JBL MRX512M (x4)

(Subwoofer)
JBL MRX518S (x2)


BAND - mainly performing Rock, no keys, no additional instruments.
1. Vocalist + Accoustic Guitarist
2. Back Vocalist + Lead Guitarist
3. Bass Guitarist
4. Drummer

So,
What do you think about the kit? Is something really wrong? Or maybe something good about it?
And usually we do Bass guitar DI'd straight into mixer. Is that wrong? (sounded quite nice with pretty crap mixing desk and crap speakers)
Can you suggest me some industry-standard overhead mics, please? I have a lot of them in mind, just afraid to get it wrong.


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Sam Spoons
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Joined: 23/01/03
Posts: 1237
Loc: Manchester UK
Re: Need help choosing the right stuff to purchase new [Re: OverDrawn]
      #999489 - 24/07/12 09:08 AM
A quote from shufflebeat in another thread

"In my experience bigger drivers (15") produce a fuller sound at lower levels but don't have good projection and definition when you push them harder. Counter-intuitively a set of 12" tops coupled with the sub might make for a better overall sound."

I'd use another pair of 512's for FOH, we use PRX 512Ms (actives) for monitors and FOH with PRX 718 bins which sounds great.

Why not consider the same rig but active? Fewer boxes to carry and wire up, if you bought 2xPRX 618S (£850) and 6xPRX512M (£750) it'd cost you £6200 the speakers and amps you list come to £6040. As a bonus that'll allow you to use 4 monitor mixes (seems a shame to waste all those outputs on the X32).

You're definitely on the right lines there though, whichever you chose it will sound great (if correctly set up and run:-)
.

Edited by Sam Spoons (24/07/12 09:25 AM)


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Sam Spoons
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Joined: 23/01/03
Posts: 1237
Loc: Manchester UK
Re: Need help choosing the right stuff to purchase new [Re: OverDrawn]
      #999492 - 24/07/12 09:11 AM
For overheads, any good small diaphragm condensor should be fine, we use Rode NT5's with the company rig and I have AKG C451's in my own rig.

Re bass straight into mixer, if it sounds good then it is good.

Edited by Sam Spoons (24/07/12 09:17 AM)


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Sam Spoons
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Joined: 23/01/03
Posts: 1237
Loc: Manchester UK
Re: Need help choosing the right stuff to purchase new [Re: OverDrawn]
      #999494 - 24/07/12 09:27 AM
Quote OverDrawn:



The problem of the band is that all of the equipment they got is borrowed or hired. So all of it will go away quite soon. The next big gig is after a month, so we need all kit at once straight away ASAP. We got money, but we don't have time and this is the biggest problem. If we purchase all kit now, I will be able to get familiar with it during one month (two people are working as a sound lads for a band) and band is rehearsing lots of time.






Have you checked that the X32 will be available soon enough for you?


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Dave Rowles



Joined: 28/02/08
Posts: 1456
Loc: Isle of Man
Re: Need help choosing the right stuff to purchase new [Re: Sam Spoons]
      #999498 - 24/07/12 09:35 AM
Just to add an alternative, If I was buying a drum mic set new I'd be getting the Audix DP5-A set instead of the shure set. They're a little more costly but excellent mics for a drumkit.

--------------------
www.manninmusic.com Bandcamp
Sound Engineer, Music Teacher, Isle of Man


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grab



Joined: 08/07/07
Posts: 2923
Loc: Cambridge, UK
Re: Need help choosing the right stuff to purchase new [Re: OverDrawn]
      #999499 - 24/07/12 09:35 AM
(Thinks...) Actually that DMK57-52 ain't too bad if you think of it as four mics, instead of as a drum mic set. You're going to want one SM57 for snare, one SM57 for guitar amp, and something for kick, so that's OK. And you've got an SM57 left over for a spare.

One other thing to think about is Murphy. With three power amps, you can work around one going fut. You've got a spare mic. Presumably you've got spare cables. But if the mixer dies, you have no vocals and no gig. So I'd seriously recommend getting something small and reasonable quality (8-mic-input Soundcraft or Mackie?) as a backup. You can use it for practises too.


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tacitus



Joined: 04/02/08
Posts: 951
Re: Need help choosing the right stuff to purchase new [Re: OverDrawn]
      #999541 - 24/07/12 12:22 PM
I have a Soundcraft M12 which is ideal for that back-up situation, plus, as you say, good for rehearsals and excellent for small events in 'village hall' mode as there are no groups to confuse novice helpers. I've probably used mine more than all my others mixers put together ... In back-up mode it stands in for my 32 channel mixer, so there's likely to be some drastic re-miking going on if I ever need it.


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Sam Spoons
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Re: Need help choosing the right stuff to purchase [Re: OverDrawn]
      #999550 - 24/07/12 12:44 PM
I go one step further, my backup mixer is a Mackie 1202VLZ 4 mic ins do Vox and kick, the rest has to take care of themselves


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Sam Spoons
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Loc: Manchester UK
Re: Need help choosing the right stuff to purchase new [Re: OverDrawn]
      #999553 - 24/07/12 12:49 PM
Actually, just thinking about it, 3 Vox and 1 drum overhead, the dynamic kick mic will drive a line channel through a gain brain, as will the guitar mic, keys and acoustic straight in job done


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grab



Joined: 08/07/07
Posts: 2923
Loc: Cambridge, UK
Re: Need help choosing the right stuff to purchase new [Re: tacitus]
      #999586 - 24/07/12 02:43 PM
Quote tacitus:

I have a Soundcraft M12 which is ideal for that back-up situation, plus, as you say, good for rehearsals and excellent for small events in 'village hall' mode as there are no groups to confuse novice helpers. I've probably used mine more than all my others mixers put together ... In back-up mode it stands in for my 32 channel mixer, so there's likely to be some drastic re-miking going on if I ever need it.




Soundcraft Folio SX here, for the same thing.

Yeah, choosing what to put through the PA if that happens is a bitch. Fortunately it's only happened to me once, and that was a smallish gig so it was good enough to just turn the amps up a bit. But we would have been very unpopular if I hadn't had the spare mixer in the car.


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Sam Spoons
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Posts: 1237
Loc: Manchester UK
Re: Need help choosing the right stuff to purchase new [Re: grab]
      #999609 - 24/07/12 03:52 PM
Just sold an SX20, great mixer but I'm saving up (and waiting for) for a Mackie DL 1608. Fortunately I can borrow one of the company mixers in the meantime.


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