But prototype is not production run and usually differ quite a bit from the final product....sure any one can build a 303 clone out of some breadboard and bits

Quote Kwaidan:

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Actually your just talking a load of crap. Roland did make a new prototype 303 during the JP-80's original development. It was a prototype along with two other prototype units. Unfortunately i was told that these 3 units including the 303 will never see the light of day.

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And that's evidence that I'm talking crap?..
Anyone can produce prototypes for a price.. that's when they decide if the concept is worth scaling up to full production..
it's quite likely that the 3 prototypes were a failure in some way and weren't worth mass-producing otherwise why would they have even produced prototypes?..

maybe spend some time thinking through your argument in future before you decide to get abusive

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MBP 17", PC 100(Nubus Protools) Motu 896, X-Station, Logic9, Reason6, Korg legacy, ACE, Alchemy, Emax II, E-Synth, Evolver MEK, Waldorf Pulse and Blofeld, AS Telemark, AS Leipzig-S

Quote Chevytraveller:

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Anyone can produce prototypes for a price.. that's when they decide if the concept is worth scaling up to full production.. it's quite likely that the 3 prototypes were a failure in some way and weren't worth mass-producing otherwise why would they have even produced prototypes?..

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See you have no idea. These 3 prototypes were shelved because Roland in Japan said no. Not because they were a failure. If they got to working prototype versions then they were scheduled to be released at some point.

Anyway the other two prototypes were already established Roland classics, work out for yourself what they were.

Quote Kwaidan:

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Quote Chevytraveller:

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Anyone can produce prototypes for a price.. that's when they decide if the concept is worth scaling up to full production.. it's quite likely that the 3 prototypes were a failure in some way and weren't worth mass-producing otherwise why would they have even produced prototypes?..

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See you have no idea. These 3 prototypes were shelved because Roland in Japan said no. Not because they were a failure. If they got to working prototype versions then they were scheduled to be released at some point.

Anyway the other two prototypes were already established Roland classics, work out for yourself what they were.

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What I would really like to know is...How do YOU know all this?
Sounds a little fishy as all R&D is done in Japan anyways?

Kwaidan,

Little harsh with Chevvy there.

You must work for Roland to know all that. I can find nothing to back up that a 303 prototype was made or even considered by Roland so are you leaking trade secrets here?

Also if what your saying is true Chevvy is merely commenting on what he knows of the current industry. How could he know such secrets to include in his reply. Its harsh to say he's talking crap what would imply deliberately misleading people.

So how do you know what you claim to know because lets face it, I could know all about Roland UK making an new 101 and spout it like it were true, but that would sort of make me a troll.

Please don't take this the wrong way or offensively. Id just like to know how you know such guarded information as a fact.

Quote jellyjim:

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Quote Steve Morley:

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Have to agree with you there. The JD-800 served me well for a long time:) But I never managed to get it sound anywhere close to the 303 LOL
Love the jokes they come up with there at Roland!
Never understood how they failed to read the market, even today so many people still buy gear that claims to sound like the 909/808/303. How on earth can you ignore that and as a company let others take the money? They could easily reproduce the originals for a decent price and ship tons as most people would still rather have an original over a clone.
Think I will never get the Roland way of thinking LOL

I really like the V-Synth, if I win the lottery I'm sure one will find it's way into my studio.

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Well they did respond to the market by pretty much inventing the "groove box" format with the MC and to some extent the SP series. The MC303 featured 808, 909, 303 and Juno sounds. They also took on the Akai MPC with the MV8000 and with considerable success to boot.

They've never been ignorant of their heritage they just chose not to respond to it in any way other than ROMplers or VAs.

And what you see coming from Roland now is tailored to some extent the market as a whole but also to their direction within it. It's hard to compete with software synths in the studio so Roland chose to target the market for live instruments, hence these massive ROMplers. Roland sell bucket loads of this stuff to markets that we relatively Godless Europeans don't think about much such as "Places of Worship" and schools that are actually properly equipped.

I am surprised they haven't responded to the Monotron though. But perhaps Korg know something we don't. Maybe it's a loss leader? Maybe Korg haven't made significant money on the Monotron. It's an exercise in brand strengthening and a "gateway product" to other more profitable Korg gear.

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Sorry but I can't call the MC-303 even a half decent sounding machine. It sounds nothing like the real deal it is supposed to be sounding like, and let's be honest how could it? It was another product designed to have the newer generation believe it sounds just like the classics and that way quickly cash in on that.
I got tons of plugs and some va's all carrying 'sounds' from classic synths but they all have one thing in common - they really don't cut it.
Just put a 106 or Alpha 2 with no FX and EQ against one of those replicating the sound and you will be shocked by the difference.

Roland has indeed never let us forget about their past, at every lauch of something new they shout about it. Unfortunately what then gets released has nothing to do with their glorious past.
By using your past and then doing something totally different you raise expectations you will never meet and therefore people are going to be dissapointed. Not very bright if you like customers to keep coming back.

From your post I see you measure success with money, I measure it with quality. It is simple, I found the Jupiter-80 a bit of a joke and put my money now nicely to mister MOOG and ordered a Voyager Rack:)

Quote:

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I got tons of plugs and some va's all carrying 'sounds' from classic synths but they all have one thing in common - they really don't cut it.

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aw man!! I feel a signiture coming on. haha,

comment of the month award goes to Steve Morley

Quote:

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Just put a 106 or Alpha 2 with no FX and EQ against one of those replicating the sound and you will be shocked by the difference.

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True! My humble Juno 6 literally blows the VST Jupiter 8 out of the water.

There really is no comparison. One has heart and soul the other is dull and sterile.

The only way to get the Jupiter 8 to sound even slightly close as my bone dry Juno 6 is to inflate it with EQ, compression, Delay and top notch reverbs. But then stickm all that on my dry Juno 6 and it obliterates again.

All VSTs to me sound like real analogue going through a dimension and soul removal plug in and a HPF.

VST and hardware VAs are the antichrist of the sound source world

Convenient but at what price??

Quote kolakube:

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Quote:

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Just put a 106 or Alpha 2 with no FX and EQ against one of those replicating the sound and you will be shocked by the difference.

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True! My humble Juno 6 literally blows the VST Jupiter 8 out of the water.

There really is no comparison. One has heart and soul the other is dull and sterile.

The only way to get the Jupiter 8 to sound even slightly close as my bone dry Juno 6 is to inflate it with EQ, compression, Delay and top notch reverbs. But then stickm all that on my dry Juno 6 and it obliterates again.

All VSTs to me sound like real analogue going through a dimension and soul removal plug in and a HPF.

VST and hardware VAs are the antichrist of the sound source world

Convenient but at what price??

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How are they even convenient? A great way to waste hours of inspiration free, enthusiasm killing misery which almost convinces you that you will really never make a piece of music that's worth anything in this world!

Roland are a disgrace for the years (decades) of milking their great legacy while still banging out their tired va/pcm yawnfests. Add arteria to the wall of shame too. Yamaha should sue them out of business for tainting its great cs80 name with their pale plastic software imitation.

If there were a few more people who were honest with themselves in this industry Roland should be taken to trading standards and have these 'juno', 'jupiter' '303' badges ripped right off them.

/rant

Quote Steve Morley:

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Sorry but I can't call the MC-303 even a half decent sounding machine.

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I never said it was. I just said it was their response to the popularity of their heritage. I think the MC303 is a nasty little ROMpler with an Ok-ish interface.

Quote Steve Morley:

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Roland has indeed never let us forget about their past, at every lauch of something new they shout about it. Unfortunately what then gets released has nothing to do with their glorious past.

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I agree

Quote Steve Morley:

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From your post I see you measure success with money,

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I do nothing of the kind and I find the suggestion very offensive! Consider your virtual wrists slapped!

Roland do think like that though and they always did. Roland aren't in business to pander to your analogue fantasies. They're in business to shift keyboards to the average musician.

Quote:

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I measure it with quality. It is simple, I found the Jupiter-80 a bit of a joke and put my money now nicely to mister MOOG and ordered a Voyager Rack:)

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Good for you. So why do you care what Roland does? I don't. I've got a Moog LP, a MeeBlip, a Monotron and various synthesisers I built myself.

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Original artwork and unique devices inspired by vintage technology http://www.thisisobsolete.com

Quote Kwaidan:

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Quote Chevytraveller:

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Something to bear in mind when understanding Roland's reluctance to rebuild the 303 is that they have rebuilt factories and optimised them for very different manufacturing processes than the methods used for assembling units like the 303.
To re-tool and be able to build something that "primitive" again would be very expensive for Roland to do and the business model/cost benefit for a large company just doesn't add up.

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Actually your just talking a load of crap. Roland did make a new prototype 303 during the JP-80's original development. It was a prototype along with two other prototype units. Unfortunately i was told that these 3 units including the 303 will never see the light of day.

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Well "retooling" in manufacturing is a real phenomena so it might not be true but it is possible.

Yes how do you know all this Kwaidan?

He might be telling the truth folks. He was first with the JP80 news.

Kwaidan, proof or I call "bullshit"

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Original artwork and unique devices inspired by vintage technology http://www.thisisobsolete.com

Quote jellyjim:

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So why do you care what Roland does? I don't.

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Well I do. But not that much. It doesn't make me froth at the mouth.

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Original artwork and unique devices inspired by vintage technology http://www.thisisobsolete.com

Quote:

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How are they even convenient?

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Oh they are convenient mate. Instant recall for one, only need lug a laptop around instead of a flightcased synth that will get a pint spilt on it etc etc.
Also they never break and can be constantly updated.

....But thats where any plus points absolutely end for me and then the scales tip, nay, plummet the other way.

VSTs all sound the same!

I mean get a Jupiter 8 and play it along side a Mini Moog. Or lets not go nuts, lets just sit a 101 next to a SQ80. They sound totally different. All different innards and convertors and such. Even the 303 sound different to the 101 and there quite similar really. Even a 303 will sound different to another 303 marginally!!

Where as a VST Jupiter on a PC sounds exactly like a VST Minimoog on a PC. Thats sort of missing a huuuuuge part of the process.

Also I find them so dull to use. I much prefer ownership or a tangible piece of kit.

Id much rather use a JP8000 over a VST twice as powerful even though the sound will be similar. I just like touchy feely.

The above two points alone are more than enough justification for me.

To tie back in with this thread id much rather have a Jupiter 80 than a VST Jupiter 8. And thats saying something.

I think what rubs people up the wrong way even more with Roland is the inability to even make a good VA now days...lets not beat around the bush here but can any one think of anything noteworthy in the VA line up since the JP-8000/8080? Nope? Thought so...I won't mention the V-Synth as I put that in a different league (I do like it)

If they spent some time in developing a great new VA that doesn't have to rely on some old model number or badly recycled JP technology to be honest they would have a hit...analogue or not, if the thing would sound great and have enough hands on control etc...people will buy it and they wont have to rely on tricking young kids into buying them with their legacy names

I can't think of any decent VA's of late to be honest from any manufacturer...Novation with the UltraFailure, man £500 is a rip off cos you can buy a SuperNova2 for less which is a hella lot more synth for your cash..and cos the UltraNova just recycles the supernova...they pretty much sound the same

I care what Roland does.

There modern day offerings are sacrilege to me. Like someone insulting my religion!

Good point VJ with the Ultrnova. WHat a load of shite!!

I mean the original Nova was a VA. So then they try to remake that and make a balls of it. Its like a cut down Monotimbral Nova and twice the second hand price.

Who researches this crap?

The reason I care about what Roland does is fairly simple - they are one of the very few companies that could make modern day analogue synths that sound great at a decent price. Every synth has it's own character and if you can't find/afford something like a Jupiter 8 then there is nothing really to replace it with.

Maybe they could have a sub division re issuing the classics build on order:)) Imagine £1200 for a new original TB-303!! At least you don't have to worry it might break down on you after using it twice.
I understand they are a business and it is about making money, but I think that it would buy them a lot of credit and new/re turning customers if they did something like that.

By the way sorry if I sounded a little harsh about the success related to money comment. It came out a bit wrong LOL

Quote:

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Maybe they could have a sub division re issuing the classics build on order:)) Imagine £1200 for a new original TB-303!!

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Thats exactly what I said earlier on mate.

Roland can make another company like Boss or even have them build under licence by an actual company willing to give it a go.

Id dont buy this 'Roland are too big a company" to want to cash in a a brand new replica TB303 for £1250.

People have wanted the 303s 8078s etc rebuilt since the early 90s. That demand has not gone away in 20 odd years. Just as Xox!! THere is money to be made and a huge gap in the market.

Just make a limited run of 1000 for goodness sake!!! As long as they were EXACT replicas they'd go for a bomb!!

Quote kolakube:

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Who researches this crap?

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Thinking about it, I think it's just us getting old lol The market changed.
Novation was/is? a company that's pretty with it in terms of what people want, right from when they kick started the craze with the BassStation through to the V-Station VST and now to fancy controllers and all that jazz

From their research it must of been clear kids don't care for too many knobs but instead USB, auto map features, integration with DAW's and 1 billion presets arranged in cool categories such as "DubStep Bass" and "killer" leads lol

And to be fair to Novation...It was VERY hard to re-packidge any of their virtual analogue synths other than giving them a fresh heart (sound engine) cos in terms of layout/features they were perfect the first time round...how else can you re-package something that's got such great design...so instead let's take the K-Station..take a bunch of ish off it and add a bunch of cr*p kids want now days like a audio interface, USB and all the other stuff I said ;-)
I wish they changed their sound engine though...VA Novas always sounded so plastic to me..I do have a lot of respect for Chris Huggett though...not just cos he worked for Akai on those monumental samplers or made the Wasp either hahahah

Edited by vinyl_junkie (28/04/11 10:17 AM)

Quote Steve Morley:

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The reason I care about what Roland does is fairly simple - they are one of the very few companies that could make modern day analogue synths that sound great at a decent price.

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But maybe they can't?

Quote:

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Every synth has it's own character and if you can't find/afford something like a Jupiter 8 then there is nothing really to replace it with.

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That is a real point. These instruments will all be lost one day and their sounds with them.

Quote:

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Maybe they could have a sub division re issuing the classics build on order:)) Imagine £1200 for a new original TB-303!! At least you don't have to worry it might break down on you after using it twice.

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But would it be £1200? I know people are manufacturing 303 clones at much lower price points but they don't have the overheads of Roland. There comes a point when a company is so large that it can't make massive changes in direction unless, as you suggest, they have a sub-division or some such.

But you know then again ... look what Moog did with the Taurus re-issues. They updated it and did it in limited numbers checking the market interest first.

Quote:

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I understand they are a business and it is about making money, but I think that it would buy them a lot of credit and new/re turning customers if they did something like that.

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Yes it would do them good to honour rather than plunder their heritage! I love Korg for doing the Monotron and Monotribe. Korg make me feel all warm and fuzzy. Roland make me feel all worn and muddy!

Quote:

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By the way sorry if I sounded a little harsh about the success related to money comment. It came out a bit wrong LOL

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Forgiven x

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Original artwork and unique devices inspired by vintage technology http://www.thisisobsolete.com

Quote kolakube:

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VSTs all sound the same!

I mean get a Jupiter 8 and play it along side a Mini Moog. Or lets not go nuts, lets just sit a 101 next to a SQ80. They sound totally different.

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VSTis may not be so inspiring to you, but they certainly don’t all sound the same.

Put JP8V at the side of MiniMonsta and they don’t sound the same any more than the hardware does.

But why such a desire to define things as ‘good’ or ‘bad’? It seems to me more productive to simply pick and choose the tools that do the job for you from the incredibly rich source we have at our disposal. For me that’s everything from a 1950s microphone to a 2011 VSTi and everything between. If restricting your palette inspires you, then good for you, but it needs no justification on the basis that ‘all VSTis are rubbish’.

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Quote kolakube:

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Just make a limited run of 1000 for goodness sake!!! As long as they were EXACT replicas they'd go for a bomb!!

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It's true. There'd be a sweet spot obviously but if Roland released 1000 TB303 re-issues I reckon they could pretty much charge what they wanted. I reckon they'd clear 1000 at £2000 a pop no problem. There has to be 1000 people worldwide prepared to pay that.

But what return could they respect? God knows.

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Original artwork and unique devices inspired by vintage technology http://www.thisisobsolete.com

Quote The Elf:

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Quote kolakube:

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VSTs all sound the same!

I mean get a Jupiter 8 and play it along side a Mini Moog. Or lets not go nuts, lets just sit a 101 next to a SQ80. They sound totally different.

---

VSTis may not be so inspiring to you, but they certainly don’t all sound the same.

Put JP8V at the side of MiniMonsta and they don’t sound the same any more than the hardware does.

But why such a desire to define things as ‘good’ or ‘bad’? It seems to me more productive to simply pick and choose the tools that do the job for you from the incredibly rich source we have at our disposal. For me that’s everything from a 1950s microphone to a 2011 VSTi and everything between. If restricting your palette inspires you, then good for you, but it needs no justification on the basis that ‘all VSTis are rubbish’.

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I agree. I think it's just better for the hardware/analogue heads to admit there's no rhyme or reason to their obsession.

In the immortal words of the great and sensuous American poet Mary Oliver

"Let the soft animal of your body love what it loves."

Analogue synths. Phwoar! Arooga! Arooga! Hubba-hubba etc

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Original artwork and unique devices inspired by vintage technology http://www.thisisobsolete.com

Quote kolakube:

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Kwaidan,

You must work for Roland to know all that. I can find nothing to back up that a 303 prototype was made or even considered by Roland so are you leaking trade secrets here?

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I don't work for Roland, i have good contacts and these 3 prototype units were also confirmed to me by a Roland engineer who was involved with the JP-80 from the very beginning.

You won't find anything on the internet relating to this. The JP-80 wasn't really a trade secret it's been in development since early last year. And these prototypes are not trade secrets. Simply because there will be no photos, no videos, they will be simply stored away beside the rest of the unreleased prototypes Roland has developed.

Anyway who cares, Roland have done themselves in. Plenty of other machines out there to fill the gaps in.


Kwaidan (Japanese) = Ghost Story

Quote Kwaidan:

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Quote kolakube:

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Kwaidan,

You must work for Roland to know all that. I can find nothing to back up that a 303 prototype was made or even considered by Roland so are you leaking trade secrets here?

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I don't work for Roland, i have good contacts and these 3 prototype units were also confirmed to me by a Roland engineer who was involved with the JP-80 from the very beginning.

You won't find anything on the internet relating to this. The JP-80 wasn't really a trade secret it's been in development since early last year. And these prototypes are not trade secrets. Simply because there will be no photos, no videos, they will be simply stored away beside the rest of the unreleased prototypes Roland has developed.

Anyway who cares, Roland have done themselves in. Plenty of other machines out there to fill the gaps in.


Kwaidan (Japanese) = Ghost Story

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Thanks for sharing the info. Do you know why they decided against it?

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Original artwork and unique devices inspired by vintage technology http://www.thisisobsolete.com

Quote Kwaidan:

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See you have no idea. These 3 prototypes were shelved because Roland in Japan said no. Not because they were a failure. If they got to working prototype versions then they were scheduled to be released at some point.

Anyway the other two prototypes were already established Roland classics, work out for yourself what they were.

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You seem to be the one with no idea.. either with manners or the meaning of words.

You seem to know even less about the process of manufacture in large companies or the complexities of bringing a product to market.
Just because you have a friend(and I suspect only 1) does not mean you have an understanding of the processes and politics of large corporations
If they were a success, then they would have been produced.. they was clearly a reason that they weren't.
That reason may have been technical or it may have been political, but the project was still clearly unsuccessful or we would be seeing the all new 303 now.

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MBP 17", PC 100(Nubus Protools) Motu 896, X-Station, Logic9, Reason6, Korg legacy, ACE, Alchemy, Emax II, E-Synth, Evolver MEK, Waldorf Pulse and Blofeld, AS Telemark, AS Leipzig-S

Quote:

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VSTis may not be so inspiring to you, but they certainly don’t all sound the same.

Put JP8V at the side of MiniMonsta and they don’t sound the same any more than the hardware does.

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How can they not sound the same Elf? There all from the same single sound card with the exact same convertors.

Sure one may have three virtual oscillators and the other two meaning different types of sound can be made but they still all have the same PC soundcard colour as they all come from the same PC soundcard

Unless im wrong in which case they all just sound utterly bland to me but in different ways.

Or then again it may be psychological. I may fiddle with a Juno, cream my pants and then think it sounds better because of this because im playing a real instrument. Similarly I may nod off when I twiddle with a mouse and keyboard.

What ever the reason though, my juno 6 pee's all over the VST Jupiter IMHO. There is no comparison really. THere not even on the same map never ind part of the same race.

I can see why people use VSTs for convenience like I outlined above, but sound quality? No way. Experience, defiantly not. (That one s subjective of course)

Quote Chevytraveller:

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That reason may have been technical or it may have been political, but the project was still clearly unsuccessful or we would be seeing the all new 303 now.

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The reasons were neither, Roland were more keen on pushing the development and release of the JP-80. Original 303's are still in circulation, if Roland decided to go ahead and develop these prototypes fully. You would be seeing a lot more than a new 303.

The x0xb0x nicely fills the 303 gap.

Quote kolakube:

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How can they not sound the same Elf? There all from the same single sound card with the exact same convertors.

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So, by that reasoning, everything you hear sounds even more the same by being played through the same amp and speakers - which add much more of their own character to the sound than any soundcard.

Quote Chevytraveller:

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Original 303's are still in circulation, if Roland decided to go ahead and develop these prototypes fully. You would be seeing a lot more than a new 303.

The x0xb0x nicely fills the 303 gap.

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All I wish is an original TB-303 in new condition so it will last me a lifetime making sweet music full of heavenly bleeps:)))
Not altered, beefed up or whatever!

xOxbOx is not really filling the 303 gap, it is filling the gap for okish replicas. If they sounded the same no one would part with the figures an original commands these days. And believe me, prices are mad for them and yet they are piss easy to sell..Damn even one that is half working still goes for £1000!!

Edited by Steve Morley (28/04/11 12:39 PM)

Roland need to start releasing replicas to satisfy me. Exact replicas. Maybes I could forgive MIDI being included.

For me its more about using the same innards to make the same sound. Instead of slapping the name Juno on the side of a digital synth.

Also xox doesnt fill the gap at all.

I want a real deal Roland TB303. Not a clone. I know there is little different but pay £500 for a xox of £1500 for a brand new ltd run of TB303 from roland with MIDI.

No brainer.

Xox is more a lack of options than a conscious decision. ( Not meaning to knock the Xox )

Quote kolakube:

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Put JP8V at the side of MiniMonsta and they don’t sound the same any more than the hardware does.

How can they not sound the same Elf? There all from the same single sound card with the exact same convertors.

Sure one may have three virtual oscillators and the other two meaning different types of sound can be made but they still all have the same PC soundcard colour as they all come from the same PC soundcard

Unless im wrong in which case they all just sound utterly bland to me but in different ways.

Or then again it may be psychological. I may fiddle with a Juno, cream my pants and then think it sounds better because of this because im playing a real instrument. Similarly I may nod off when I twiddle with a mouse and keyboard.

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There is no way JP8V sounds the "same" as Minimonsta, unless you are trivialising things and just listening to raw static waveforms in which case what you say may be closer to the truth. There are many many sounds I can get out of a JP8V that could not come from Minimonsta, and vice versa. They have very different characters, and even where they overlap they don't even sound that similar. PLus once you add in some of the more advanced features, the experience changes again.

I there there is a lot of psychology in these things, playing a real instrument compared to a virtual software thing with a mouse - it's a completely different experience - but if you strip all that away, they are all capable of making inspiring sounds and great music.

And - please let's keep things civilised folks - passion is great, but arguments and disrespect are dull...

Quote Chevytraveller:

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If they were a success, then they would have been produced.. they was clearly a reason that they weren't.
That reason may have been technical or it may have been political, but the project was still clearly unsuccessful or we would be seeing the all new 303 now.

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Indeed.

I am in manufacturing and have designed many products (as is known here). Prototypes are routinely made that never see the light of day. Protos are built to assess and validate their technical and/or commercial viability and it's at that stage it's when they find potential production or other problems or causes that prevent it ever being considered for mass production largely because, with a big manufacturer like Roland, they have to tool up for several production runs of large batches (of many hundreds) and so you have to consider VERY carefully if they're going to shift in quantity or whether you're going to end up with warehouses across the world full of these lemons they later have to sell at a loss. (This is why the boutique companies can do these things - they can get 50 made and see how it goes. If it's successful, build another 50 and so on. They have small overheads and it can be profitable for them, VERY profitable perhaps for a small one or two man setup. Roland et al have to gear up for massive production runs - it's how they are structured.)

Then there's also the allocation of resources which aren't limitless. Deciding to go ahead with something for a niche market means they might/will have to pull resources from elsewhere, maybe from a more profitable product or range.

These (and many more) are all considerations before ploughing LOTS of money into going into production. And don't forget that Roland got burnt when they first released the 303 and just because some internet witterati SAY they'd buy one if it was re-released doesn't mean they WILL and Roland could be left with another heap of unsold units ... again!

And a new 303 wouldn't sell for £1,200. Yes - to a handful of loonies perhaps but you can buy a Voyager for that much FFS and a Phatty for less! The reason the 303 fetched those prices in their ravey heyday was because they were rare and fashionable and people were stupid enough to pay that kind of dosh for 'that sound'. A re-release would make them very ordinary and worth very little.

And besides, I can guarantee that there'd be a ton of people queueing up to bash the re-released 303 and Roland for not sounding the same as the original and so on. Damned if they do, damned if they don't!

But just because a prototype is built does not, in any way, shape or form, mean that there's any intention to proceed. It wouldn't surprise me to hear that they made a few Jupiter 8 and/or Juno or SH101 prototypes with a view to re-releasing but it was decided against.

Just because half a dozen people here and there claim to prefer the sound of these old things does not a viable commercial product make!

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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Quote jellyjim:

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Roland aren't in business to pander to your analogue fantasies.

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Just wanted to quote that.

Quote hollowsun:

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I am in manufacturing and have designed many products (as is known here). Prototypes are routinely made that never see the light of day. Protos are built to assess and validate their technical and/or commercial viability and it's at that stage it's when they find potential production or other problems or causes that prevent it ever being considered for mass production largely because, with a big manufacturer like Roland, they have to tool up for several production runs of large batches (of many hundreds) and so you have to consider VERY carefully if they're going to shift in quantity or whether you're going to end up with warehouses across the world full of these lemons they later have to sell at a loss. (This is why the boutique companies can do these things - they can get 50 made and see how it goes. If it's successful, build another 50 and so on. They have small overheads and it can be profitable for them, VERY profitable perhaps for a small one or two man setup. Roland et al have to gear up for massive production runs - it's how they are structured.)

Then there's also the allocation of resources which aren't limitless. Deciding to go ahead with something for a niche market means they might/will have to pull resources from elsewhere, maybe from a more profitable product or range.

These (and many more) are all considerations before ploughing LOTS of money into going into production. And don't forget that Roland got burnt when they first released the 303 and just because some internet witterati SAY they'd buy one if it was re-released doesn't mean they WILL and Roland could be left with another heap of unsold units ... again!

And a new 303 wouldn't sell for £1,200. Yes - to a handful of loonies perhaps but you can buy a Voyager for that much FFS and a Phatty for less! The reason the 303 fetched those prices in their ravey heyday was because they were rare and fashionable and people were stupid enough to pay that kind of dosh for 'that sound'. A re-release would make them very ordinary and worth very little.

And besides, I can guarantee that there'd be a ton of people queueing up to bash the re-released 303 and Roland for not sounding the same as the original and so on. Damned if they do, damned if they don't!

But just because a prototype is built does not, in any way, shape or form, mean that there's any intention to proceed. It wouldn't surprise me to hear that they made a few Jupiter 8 and/or Juno or SH101 prototypes with a view to re-releasing but it was decided against.

Just because half a dozen people here and there claim to prefer the sound of these old things does not a viable commercial product make!

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MBP 17", PC 100(Nubus Protools) Motu 896, X-Station, Logic9, Reason6, Korg legacy, ACE, Alchemy, Emax II, E-Synth, Evolver MEK, Waldorf Pulse and Blofeld, AS Telemark, AS Leipzig-S

I wouldnt want to see another new 303 anyway. The MC-303 and EF-303 were bad enough without Roland doing another one. It would be bashed just like the JP-80 got bashed on it's announcement, however it's not released yet and still undergoing coding. Besides i have enough TB-303's as it is, but would like one more

The x0x0x fills the gap nicely for the ones who can't afford the real deal. There is an OS for the x0xb0x that adds a time-mode function just like the real 303, i suggest you checkout the x0x forums.

Quote hollowsun:

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And a new 303 wouldn't sell for £1,200. Yes - to a handful of loonies perhaps but you can buy a Voyager for that much FFS and a Phatty for less! The reason the 303 fetched those prices in their ravey heyday was because they were rare and fashionable and people were stupid enough to pay that kind of dosh for 'that sound'. A re-release would make them very ordinary and worth very little.

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And this is where you are completely wrong! People want a TB-303 for that specific sound, something that no other machine can do. This machine is not comparable to other synths, simples.
That is the real reason why they are still selling for massive amounts, that is not stupid but actually sensible. I buy gear that I use in my releases and that is how I earn money. The right sound in the right track is worth money, so it is an investment. Just like a quality mixing console, monitors, fx units etc.

I find it actually rather insulting that you call people 'loonies' and 'stupid' for paying a certain amount of money for something they rate.

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There is no way JP8V sounds the "same" as Minimonsta, unless you are trivialising things and just listening to raw static waveforms in which case what you say may be closer to the truth. There are many many sounds I can get out of a JP8V that could not come from Minimonsta, and vice versa. They have very different characters, and even where they overlap they don't even sound that similar. PLus once you add in some of the more advanced features, the experience changes again.

I there there is a lot of psychology in these things, playing a real instrument compared to a virtual software thing with a mouse - it's a completely different experience - but if you strip all that away, they are all capable of making inspiring sounds and great music.

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Disagree - All VSTs are ran on the exact same PC hardware.

So if you got a Mini moog or a piano and sampled it on a yamaha sampler they would all have a similar colour to the sample. A VST is much like this. IE everything comes from one convertor etc.

You dont get this with separate pieces of kit, they all have there own charicter. As such all VSTs have the same colour. To me anyhow.

If you and Elf love VSTs Desmond, than good on ya. There all tools at the end of the day as I keep saying time and time again. But to me, VSTs are horrible uninspirational and dull as dish water.

In another thread or maybe even this one you stated you have a lust for a Jupiter 8.

Why not just buy the VST then for a hundred quid then?

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And this is where you are completely wrong! People want a TB-303 for that specific sound, something that no other machine can do. This machine is not comparable to other synths, simples.
That is the real reason why they are still selling for massive amounts, that is not stupid but actually sensible. I buy gear that I use in my releases and that is how I earn money. The right sound in the right track is worth money, so it is an investment. Just like a quality mixing console, monitors, fx units etc.

I find it actually rather insulting that you call people 'loonies' and 'stupid' for paying a certain amount of money for something they rate.

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Steve I think a lot of people on here are people who are not involved in electronic dance music. As such they don't understand the importance of pieces of kit like the 303 or whatever. Much like I have no clue to a good piano or a hall assemble one.

I am a loony!! I would pay £1300 for a ROLAND 303. Ill sing up now infact if possible. Especially if its a limited edition much like the MPC3000 that sold out to similar looneys.

As said, I get Roland are a huuuuge company and couldn't care. So have them made under licence to an exact Roland specification.