I mean when I think of all the idiotic oversights in the history of music technology this is up there with Akai giving Roger the flick. Utterly ridiculous and as much as I crave the Onyx after a lunch hour once-over in Turdkey where it made the competition look like plastic cutlery I flat out refuse to buy one of these until they either offer a free mod or release a MK2 with fix and firewire at no additional cost as a gesture of goodwill.

Who's with me - let's make the mods sticky this and it can sit up top for 6 months with no replies like all the other stickies.

It'd be useful to give some information or offer a link which explains more about this floor, for those of us who don't know what you're talking about! Does it match the exploding 002R problem?

i can think of several flaws in the onyx, but have no idea which one Gelled is on about....


the ones I know of are

1) it's a mackie.

2) the interface is pre-EQ and pre-fader in thew signal chain, so you cannot use the EQ on a source to be recorded when you record via the firewire interface

3) the firewire only has a single return to the desk, you cannot use the desk to actually MIX on with the firewire add on.... ie, it's got 18 inputs to DAW, but only 2 outputs/...

4) it's STILL a mackie

5) guess what......


actually, there is a way around the interface limitations to a degree...

inputs 17&18 are a stereo mix from the Desk, so PROVIDED you're only tracking at most , two sources, you could EQ the source and record the mix buss result... and if doing two sources, pan each one left or right, and record the resulting input to mono channels form Input 17/18

but it's fiddly, and piss all use if you're recording a live band.

I'm not a Mackie fan, but i will concede that the new EQ is at least better than their previous efforts... although I still don;t love it, it's not ,nearly as hard sounding.

which makes it all the more ridiculous that they implemented the interface in this manner.

someone at mackie needs a good kick up the ****


Max

--------------------
if you don't know who i am, i aint gonna tell you.

LOL at max, yes it's 2 and 3 of your list - I thought everyone on here knew thats why I wasnt specific

And um yeah there are workarounds, theres even a guy in the states who will add the necessary switch for $250, but i say NO! Mackie must admit they were wrong and foolish and idiotic and must personally apologise to me at the earliest opportunity or I will go and cry

here, have a hanky

try not to flood the forum too badly....

I do agree it's bloody silly.


I wonder if they had Terry pratchett's "Bloody Stupid Johnson" in mind when they decided to implement it thusly



Max

--------------------
if you don't know who i am, i aint gonna tell you.

Hmm maybe I am completly missing something(Wouldnt be the first time) but exactly why is that a flaw? At most I would want it to be switchable, but at least this way I can get a clean signal into my computer to record a live performance on. Admitedly though most of my performances nowadays require boards the size of the 80 series onyx's since I tend to run 20+ mics now, and unfortunatly the 80 series I dont think has ANY firewire interface, but still I liked the concept at least, I would add the EQ and mix changes in at mixdown instead since if I wasnt using the 80 series or other board of the kind I would probably have to make adjustments anyways to account for spill off the backline on stage.

So yes I am missing why this is such a big deal myself.

Seablade

Quote Max The Mac:

---

the interface is pre-EQ and pre-fader in thew signal chain, so you cannot use the EQ on a source to be recorded when you record via the firewire interface

---

I don't think this is a "flaw".

Everyone has been yelling at Mackie for proper Direct Outs (from their rather nice pre-amps) for years as opposed to the half-inserted insert cable solution you have to use on the VLZ series.

So they give the people Direct Outs, lots of them, on the new Onyx series and guess what... still the people aren't content!

I would always use Direct Outs to record so this is not a "flaw" for users like me, although I can see that others might have liked a post routing option. The only thing I might consider recording would be the Low Cut switch on the pre-amp - is that pre or post anyone?

I actually didnt see this as a board intended straight for the home recording market, but rather for the general live market for a entry board like their boards have been, especially since the firewire is an option on it and doesnt come with it.

I consider the ability to record without my mix in shows a great thing myself, though unfortunatly as I said elsewhere, I would need it on their 80 series instead of their small format, but for a small band this should work fine. Heck I ran tons of bands this summer off of 16 channels or less, and would have loved to be able to record off the board to mixdown later.

Seablade

Yea James also covered another aspect very well... well said.

Seablade

I guess what a lot of potential Onyx buyers are crying out for is a switch.

Quote Ultimate Fish:

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I guess what a lot of potential Onyx buyers are crying out for is a switch.

---

Meaning switch as in ability to make the send post EQ and/or fader? Or switch as in permant change?

Personally I got the impression the first of those would work. Just wanna make sure I understandin correct though.

Seablade

The first one. A pre/post EQ button for the direct outs.

I guess this is a symptom of building to a price. Another button would cost that little bit more.

Quote Ultimate Fish:

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The first one. A pre/post EQ button for the direct outs.

I guess this is a symptom of building to a price. Another button would cost that little bit more.

---

Correctamundo! I would buy it if it had it, but it don't so I ain't. You hear me Greg???

Quote Ultimate Fish:

---

A pre/post EQ button for the direct outs.

I guess this is a symptom of building to a price. Another button would cost that little bit more.

---

Fixing the other problem that Max mentioned, to be able to use the mixer for summing, should have higher priority. The EQ should then be available during mixing, which is arguably the better way to track & mix. Switching between tracking and mixing could even be done from the computer; without adding any new button on the desk! If the internals of the desk have been designed with this in mind, I expect it should come soon as a FW option mk II.

BTW, I picked up a Mackie "Pocket propaganda" brochure last Saturday, where every Mackie product is presented. The 1220 is described as having 4-band EQ...

Cheers,
Tomas

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cheers,
t-:

Why I like the these Mackies:

1) It's a Mackie, I have always liked the preamps

2) The interface is pre-EQ and pre-fader in the signal chain, so you cannot use the EQ on a source to be recorded when you record via the firewire interface

3) The firewire has a single return to the desk, you can mix in Logic without paying for all those D/A converters

4) This is very good for live recording, and I like flat recording, anyway.

5) it's STILL a Mackie

6) The Eq is very useable Live. A first for a small Mackie!

7) Guess what? A bargain, and I love it!


Some comments.

You can do EQ on the way in, and use inserts, on 9 channels, if you want route channels 1 and 2 to L+R. Then 3 to 16 (with the 16 channel model) you go through the Auxes as below, using the odd-numbered channels for eq and inserts:


Mic >ch.1 > Left > Firewire in Left

Mic >ch.2 > Right > Firewire in Right

Mic >ch.3 > Aux 1 > Aux 1 Out > Line in > ch.4 > Firewire in 4.

Mic >ch.5 > Aux 2 > Aux 2 Out > Line in > ch.6 > Firewire in 6.

Mic >ch.7 > Aux 3 > Aux 3 Out > Line in > ch.8 > Firewire in 8

Mic >ch.9 > Aux 4 > Aux 4 Out > Line in > ch.10 > Firewire in 10

Mic >ch.11 > Aux 5 > Aux 5 Out > Line in > ch.12 > Firewire in 12

Mic >ch.13 > Aux 6 > Aux 6 Out > Line in > ch.14 > Firewire in 14

Mic >ch.15 > Group 1 > Group 1 Out > Line in > ch.16 > Firewire in 16

Ta-Da !!


The downsides on this desk for me are:

The FW interface only does -100 db

No Spdif in

No Clock in

And the FW interface will only go to Max Level if you are a gnat's todger off clipping the pre-amp. I'd like a wee bit more headroom.

G

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PA stuff on FB

christ thats a lot of effort !

especially when u think the cheapy old SC folio sx has 8 direct outs which are switchable pre or post...

--------------------
Statick Audio

I dunno, if the Folio SX is like my FX, the directs are psuedo balanced and the pre/post switch position is post eq and LP. That is, it really does mean pre or post fader. The insert jacks are post LP, pre EQ.

Does anyone try running the RMAA analyser through their mixers? It's very revealing.

I think an affordable analog desk that actually does integrate with a DAW, both for mixing and monitoring and without undermining the quality of the "soundcards" most of us have, is yet to be built.

Those currently on offer really are live mixers with some recording facilities.

I'd just like to ask a question in relation to something a previous poster said. Ultimate fish claims that the output of a DAW can't be mixed on the Onyx. Is this only in relation to the firewire option?
Since If someone were to be using their onyx without a firewire card and basically just using the direct outs into another interface (MOTU 828 MK2 for example)to get into their DAW then it would be 100% possible to use the direct outs of the MOTU back into the Onyx for mixing???? Or have I missed something? This is what I'll be intending to do as I'm hoping to purchase one of the Onyx mixers very soon.

Cheers, Mark.

Did I say that? maybe I did...

Anyway yes, that's only relating to the firewire interface. There's a stereo return from the firewire interface to the desk, but that's it.

Although, as Guy says, if you want X many D/A converters, you gotta pay for 'em.

So for your purposes the onyx would work just fine.

Cool thats good news. I've been wondering for a while would the particular setup that I'm planning actually work correctly and I was very glad when I saw this thread develop, it gave me a chance to suss it out.

Cheers, Mark.

does anyone know can the direct outs on the SC Spirit M series be switched pre/post eq?

ive been looking at one of these both to get more preamps, to sum and mix in analog and sure cant i use it at a gig too? or for whatever else having a decent 8 or 12 channel mixer would come in handy for!

certainly looks nice.

hope it sounds good too.

--------------------
"a paradigm of restraint and good taste at a time of frequent excess"

Quote James Lehmann:

---

The only thing I might consider recording would be the Low Cut switch on the pre-amp - is that pre or post anyone?

---

Low cut switches are usually implemented pre-fader. I actually never use them during recording, because I regard low cut switches as 'signal processing' - ie. they affect the sound, filtering it (thus having a - marginally small - effect on a signal's phase). It's not until the editing and mixing stage that I'm using any filtering. Call me a purist, but any filtering implemented during tracking can hardly be undone.

Cheers,
Frank

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Imagination is more important than knowledge - A. Einstein

Um - what flaw? It's a (relatively cheap) mixer and its spec is what it is. You can buy it or not.

Don't beat up Mackie for delivering something to a budget which (some) people love.

Might as well beat up Neve for not doing a $300 "entry level" desk.

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

Quote Steve Hill:

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Might as well beat up Neve for not doing a $300 "entry level" desk.

---

that is the second most ridiculous thing i have ever read

Happy not to break the record

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...

you'd have to go some to beat this:

Q. Where do the Recording Outs and Firewire output take their signal from in the channel strip? How about the Firewire output from the Mains?

A. Both outputs (Recording Out and Firewire) are Post-Gain, Pre-Insert, Pre-EQ, Pre-Mute, Pre-Fader. The Main Out tap is Pre-Main Mix fader. This allows for the greatest possible flexibility in both live and recording studio scenarios. When you're using the mixer for live sound, you can record your show without having to worry about changes to the FOH system showing up on your recording. In the studio, this configuration allows you to record the cleanest signal possible while allowing you to apply EQ, compression, and effects during mixdown.

I gave up using a Mackie d8b in the studio (Mackie shat on their user base big time, hoping we'd buy the dXb - ho ho)

I gave up using a Mackie SL24 live (basicaly not up to the job).

I love my Mackie active monitors.

It is hardly fair to expect an Onyx to be all things to all men. There are other products out there which will deal with the "deficiencies" in the Onyx highlighted here.

It's not as if the Onyx spec is a state secret!

If the published spec does not do it for you, buy something else, there is no reason to rant about it at the price!

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...

Quote Gelled_Fringe:

---

you'd have to go some to beat this:

Q. Where do the Recording Outs and Firewire output take their signal from in the channel strip? How about the Firewire output from the Mains?

A. Both outputs (Recording Out and Firewire) are Post-Gain, Pre-Insert, Pre-EQ, Pre-Mute, Pre-Fader. The Main Out tap is Pre-Main Mix fader. This allows for the greatest possible flexibility in both live and recording studio scenarios. When you're using the mixer for live sound, you can record your show without having to worry about changes to the FOH system showing up on your recording. In the studio, this configuration allows you to record the cleanest signal possible while allowing you to apply EQ, compression, and effects during mixdown.

---

Gelled - I think you have allowed your fringe to get in an unnecessarily large twist over this!! In fact, for many users, most of the above statement makes perfect sense in a recording situation.

But I think the whole argument is somewhat moot - it's like complaining that Corn Flakes should come pre-coated in sugar; then they'd be a totally different product, ie Frosties!
[Attempts to out-do Steve's prize-winning analogy]

Quote Statick:

---

christ thats a lot of effort !

especially when u think the cheapy old SC folio sx has 8 direct outs which are switchable pre or post...

---

Well, only a bit of head-scratching! And seven small patch-leads . . . then you get 9 inputs of eq & insert-mania, if you want, and 16 great preamps, still at the silly price of the 1640/Firewire.

G

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PA stuff on FB

I'm with Steve and James on this one. The Onyx desk is what it is. It was designed primarily as a cheap live sound mixer with optional Firewire facilities to dump the clean input signals straight to a laptop computer to make quick and easy recordings. It does that very well. But if that isn't what you need, then don't buy the desk.

To add another analogy, it would be like buying a BMW mini and then complaining that it's not as comfortable or quick as a BMW M5! (actually, I think the sugar on conflakes analogy is better... )

Okay, Mackie could certainly have made the desk more flexible by adding switching facilities to allow the Firewire (and direct?) outputs to be derived post EQ. It could also have engineered a Firewire system with loads of D-As to bring the Firewire returns as a secondary line input to each channel for re-mixing.

But then the desk would have cost a lot more, and been a completely different beast.

Clearly Mackie decided the extra expense of this kind of flexibility would not have resulted in significantly more sales -- indeed, it might even have reduced sales. That's their call -- it's their business market. If they get it right they stay in business... if they get it wrong they don't, so I don't think it was a spur of the moment decision intended purely to cheese people off!

It seem's to me that recording clean pre-EQ signals is the better approach -- especially if you are using the desk as intended as a live sound console. And if you really want to mix through the desk afterwards, all you need is a multichannel interface for your computer to hook up to the desk inputs.

Yes, the D-As add to the cost of the whole system, but not significantly more than a multichannel Firewire output card in the desk would have.

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

I have to firmly disagree with JL...

yes switchable position in the signal chain would be nice... and arguably the "correct" way to do it. but if you're going to feature a direct recording interface on an analogue console that you have been bragging about the wonderful ( )new analogue EQ on... wouldn't it make sense to be able to use that EQ during either recording or mix?????... instead of NEITHER.......?????


putting it post EQ and having an EQ defeat switch would be another option...

and I disagree about the target market as well.


any small console that "comes with, or can have fitted, a recording interface to the DAW" is squarely aimed at the Home/amateur/semi-pro recording musician.

if you go an look at the Project consoles of yesteryear, Such as the Spirit, Ghost, the Allen & Heath GS range, Studiomaster p7/mixdown/series3 etc....

you'll find the majority with direct outs had them placed post EQ, and switchable to subgroups. (or even better, the subs with their own outputs)
indeed the Gs range for example, is post insert, Post EQ, post Fader, Post Mute.............

and with EQ on/off or in/out switches.

and it's THIS market Mackie are after with the larger onyx mixers.

yet they share the same handicap as the baby of the range.



an addition to Guy's point....

how exactly are you going to record a particularly loud kick drum?? one that maxes out or surpasses the pre-amp headroom.... assuming you don't have an in line 20dB pad handy??

if it's post fader, or even just post EQ, you have the opportunity to attenuate further, thus only suffering the Mic preamp distortion instead of overloading the A/D stage.

i'm not saying that this is ideal recording technique, it's far from it, but often this is exactly what happens with kick drum mic's , usually when there's no opportunity to change the position, or when that position is tonally exactly what you're after.... (for this reason alone it's worth keeping some in line pads handy every time you track drums)

.

I also feel that at least having the option to use the interface as a signal source for mixdown would also make a lot of sense.... it's not like the firewire bandwidth is the issue ..... although these are way below the budget where i'd consider inline tape monitoring to be the way forward..... so it would have to be switched between the input and the interface return, not able to use both....

( yes using another interface allows you to do all this. valjean, no worries but who wants to buy two interfaces??? )


Overall, despite any failings I feel they might have , and despite my lack of enthusiasm for their maker , I have to say categorically that the Onyx range are still a pretty good little addition to the market place, it's just that they COULD have been SO much more, so much better, and could have utterly justifiably cleaned up on this still quite large niche in the market , a market that many manufacturers have almost abandoned......

oh well.

hindsight, aint it grand


Max

--------------------
if you don't know who i am, i aint gonna tell you.

Good point about the kick, Max, though in practice so far, I have not had to use my in-line pad.

Also in practice, I have found that mic positioning and choice to be more effective than eq-ing.

And yes, it could have been a much better desk, but for the money, for live (and studio recording) , and mixing within Logic, I'm not complanificating about Mackie's corporate choiceitudes,

G

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PA stuff on FB

Quote Max The Mac:

---

I have to firmly disagree with JL...

...

and I disagree about the target market as well.

...

Overall, despite any failings I feel they might have , and despite my lack of enthusiasm for their maker , I have to say categorically that the Onyx range are still a pretty good little addition to the market place, it's just that they COULD have been SO much more, so much better, and could have utterly justifiably cleaned up on this still quite large niche in the market , a market that many manufacturers have almost abandoned...

...

---

Max - may I firmly disagree with you?

Your argument is that their target audience is studio not (just) live but their product only fit for live not studio.

OK, but if we look at the price and think of these as good live desks for small, low-spec rigs which allow direct takes into a laptop for later re-mixing in a DAW, then they're fine. To me, that's their target market and they're very good and adequately speced for this.

These desks are not suitable for being the centre of a DAW set-up without external AD/DA. You'd probably want something more along the lines of a MoTU or RME interface anyway that allow digital mixing under the DAW's control. The Onyx do not compete with these, and given the price of these desks and what I'm assuming is their target market, that's fine in my book.

So I'm definitely in the frosties are not cornflakes camp.

Quote Max The Mac:

---

... but if you're going to feature a direct recording interface on an analogue console that you have been bragging about the wonderful ( )new analogue EQ on... wouldn't it make sense to be able to use that EQ during either recording or mix?????... instead of NEITHER.......?????

---

I can see both sides of the argument here, but no, I don't think it does make absolute sense given the intended primary purpose of the mixer which as I understand it, was as a live sound mixer -- like the majority of other Mackie analogue consoles.

When talking to the Mackie guys at shows, I had the distinct impression that the Firewire interface was conceived simply as a convenient way to be able to record the direct outs to a laptop for future mixing elsewhere when gigging. And for that it generally makes sense to record flat. The Firewire returns were simply to allow easy checks that something was reaching the laptop, and were never intended for remixing purposes. So for that specific market, the design hits the nail quite squarely on the head.

It seems to be missing the point somewhat to complain that the mixer doesn't do something it was never intended to -- act as a complete mixer/interface for home studio recording. I agree that in its current form the mixer/firewire arrangement doesn't meet the needs of some home studio guys looking for a cheap and convenient solution.... but so what? Go by something more appropriate!

Quote:

---

putting it post EQ and having an EQ defeat switch would be another option...

---

The Onyx desk does have an EQ defeat button -- a major improvement on the VLZ consoles. But your idea still wouldn't help the desk's intended role, which is to allow source EQ to the PA while still allowing unmolested recording of the channel direct outs.

Quote:

---

any small console that "comes with, or can have fitted, a recording interface to the DAW" is squarely aimed at the Home/amateur/semi-pro recording musician.

---

Sure, but from Mackie's point of view I suspect they meant performing musicians who want to record their gigs, not to produce bands in their bedrooms.

The Onyx desks and the VLZs before it have always been aimed primarily towards small PA applications -- and although they have been usable for recording purposes as well, that wasn't the core of their design ethos.

Quote:

---

and it's THIS market Mackie are after with the larger onyx mixers. yet they share the same handicap as the baby of the range.

---

Well, as I said before, the Mackie guys defined a design brief and built a product to match that. There is no point in trying to second guess their reasons. I agree a more flexible product (at the same price) would be more attractive in some quarters, but it would not be feasible. A more flexible product would cost more... but whether the market would be big enough to justify producing such a thing, who knows.

In any case, personally, I'd rather be able to choose the converters I used to get to and from the desk, rather than have something cheap and cheerful on an all-in-one Firewire card built for a budget price.

IF we aren't careful this circular debate will go on for several pages. Can we just agree that this mixer doesn't meet everyone's needs. It does what it does quite well. It's crap as an all-in-one mixer/interface for studio recording. What more needs to be said?

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

---

IF we aren't careful this circular debate will go on for several pages.

---

Quite. I say we settle this in tried and tested SOS fashion. PISTOLS AT DAWN!

In the Cornflake Corner: Steve, James, Hugh, "seablade", "Grim Audiere"
In the Frosties Corner: "Gelled_Fringe", Max, "Ultimate Fish"
Referee: Guy (the only one here who actually owns one of these blasted mixers!)

Weapons must be declared and inspected before the contest and the time and place to be decided by the toss of a groat!

Quote James Lehmann:

---

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

---

IF we aren't careful this circular debate will go on for several pages. Can we just agree that this mixer doesn't meet everyone's needs.

---

Quite. I say we settle this in tried and tested SOS fashion. PISTOLS AT DAWN!

In the Cornflake Corner: Steve, James, Hugh, "Seablade", "Grim Audiere"
In the Frosties Corner: "Gelled_Fringe", Max, "Ultimate Fish"
Referee: Guy (the only one here who actually owns one of these blasted mixers!)

Weapons must be declared and inspected before the contest and the time and place to be decided by the toss of a groat.

---

HehHeh...

Seablade

Who was been strangely quiet because James and Hugh have done a remarkable job explaining his point of view.

Quote James Lehmann:

---

I say we settle this in tried and tested SOS fashion. PISTOLS AT DAWN!

In the Cornflake Corner: Steve, James, Hugh, "seablade", "Grim Audiere"
In the Frosties Corner: "Gelled_Fringe", Max, "Ultimate Fish"
Referee: Guy (the only one here who actually owns one of these blasted mixers!)

---

Err ... If I put sugar on my cornflakes, does that mean I have to change corners?

--------------------
Andrew

No but you should go stand in the corner and think about what you've done!!

Sugar on cornflakes? Imagine that!

I'm going back to Alpen... and the original, realtively manly version at that

hugh

--------------------
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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I'm going back to Alpen... and the original, realtively manly version at that

---

I believe real men make their own organic muesli these days Hugh!