Yesterday I burnt two tracks at 1speed on my cdr and I can't tell you how astonished I was by the results.
The highs were so crisp they were edible.
I don't know what other speeds or cheaper media do to the sound,but they sound so cheap and filtered compared to what I heard.

Is there a point?

Well any stage of audio process can alter your sound I suppose,but this final stage has got me excited,again.

Edited title to make it more meaningful and to stop the pointless bickering! HR

Edited by Hugh Robjohns (14/11/06 10:29 AM)

I'm getting great results hard disk recording to a vintage 2Gb Maxtor drive. Far superior dynamic response than modern drives; rich mids, sparkly highs, rounded lows etc. Something to do with the resonant frequencies of the bearings used in older drives and their effect on how data is laid down on the magnetic surface and also error correction on playback.

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Original artwork and unique devices inspired by vintage technology http://www.thisisobsolete.com

Lol. Is this a wind up? April was months ago..

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http://Infekted.org ~ Access Virus news & community

Don't know about wind up, but it's a really crap thread title. I VERY rarely bother to look at posts that don't have a title that indicates what might be inside.

People should realise that the extra 15 seconds it takes to put a proper meaniful title on a thread is very well spent.

eg "1x" should have been "1x burning sounds better"

or

"big problem" becomes "problem with eq'ing bass"

well, that's another minute of my life wasted.

Quote Tímo:

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Lol. Is this a wind up? April was months ago..

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No! why?

Quote ibliss:

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Don't know about wind up, but it's a really crap thread title. I VERY rarely bother to look at posts that don't have a title that indicates what might be inside.

People should realise that the extra 15 seconds it takes to put a proper meaniful title on a thread is very well spent.

eg "1x" should have been "1x burning sounds better"

or

"big problem" becomes "problem with eq'ing bass"

well, that's another minute of my life wasted.

---

Sounds like anal retention to me

If you know about cd burning then you would realise what it is straight away.

Thanks for pointing out your ignorance.

I figured 1x would be about burning speeds.

I agree though that people shouldn't post "big problem" as a thread title, those ones are stupid. People do it hoping curiosity will result in more people checking it out.

You burned the tracks at 1x, but did you actually compare them to the same material burned at a faster speed? or just what you can remember previously hearing, because if not, that wouldn't be a fair test, also your hearing cannot decided which is better that way, it needs instant A/B comparisons far as I understand, which might not be very far

Burning slower is better though, reduces error. I think Bob Katz recommends 2x or 4x, no faster, but that will change as drives get faster and more accurate. (at a guess)

If burning at 1X sounds different to burning at other speeds then there is something wrong with your setup and you need to ask yourself why is this happening? Are there errors on the disc? Is there something else about the disc that is different? Is your CD player working properly?

I don't doubt that you are hearing something but the differences are down to the problems with your gear and would not be apparent in a properly setup system. The big problem is that properly set up systems are rarer than you might think.

Cheers

James.

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JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

Quote Music Manic:

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Sounds like anal retention to me

If you know about cd burning then you would realise what it is straight away.

Thanks for pointing out your ignorance.

---

MM, this is hardly being anal as you put it. It's just basic forum etiquette.

For the record, if I see 1x I assume it's about 802.1x - which this isn't.

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TAKEN.BALL.GONE.HOME

Quote Mowens800:

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I figured 1x would be about burning speeds.

I agree though that people shouldn't post "big problem" as a thread title, those ones are stupid. People do it hoping curiosity will result in more people checking it out.

You burned the tracks at 1x, but did you actually compare them to the same material burned at a faster speed? or just what you can remember previously hearing, because if not, that wouldn't be a fair test, also your hearing cannot decided which is better that way, it needs instant A/B comparisons far as I understand, which might not be very far

Burning slower is better though, reduces error. I think Bob Katz recommends 2x or 4x, no faster, but that will change as drives get faster and more accurate. (at a guess)

---

I've not needed to give them a direct A/B comparison because the difference was that great.I've been burning the disks at faster speeds to give out but had to burn some better quality presentations(graphic wise too)and realised the difference immediately.

Quote James Perrett:

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If burning at 1X sounds different to burning at other speeds then there is something wrong with your setup and you need to ask yourself why is this happening? Are there errors on the disc? Is there something else about the disc that is different? Is your CD player working properly?

I don't doubt that you are hearing something but the differences are down to the problems with your gear and would not be apparent in a properly setup system. The big problem is that properly set up systems are rarer than you might think.

Cheers

James.

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If what you say is true James,why have Plextor bought CAV technolgy from Yamaha?

Quote JimiQ:

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Quote Music Manic:

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Sounds like anal retention to me

If you know about cd burning then you would realise what it is straight away.

Thanks for pointing out your ignorance.

---

MM, this is hardly being anal as you put it. It's just basic forum etiquette.

For the record, if I see 1x I assume it's about 802.1x - which this isn't.

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Ok I get your point but if we're on the point of etiquette wouldn't it be more polite to say that my heading was quite vague,rather than "crap".

We all have different ways of expressing ourselves and there's a certain tolerance level that should be given within democratic environments.

i knew what you meant dude !!

I gotta agree with above, if 1x sounds better then there is something wrong. Burning at 1x speed should generate more erros than any otherspeed simply because you can easily attain a buffer underrun. 1x has always been seen as the speed to avoid, i seem to remember lots of articles many years ago on this exact topic ! This is NOT the same, however, as using a standalone buffered writer with audio ins. Im assuming your referring to PC/MAC writers.

HOWEVER - it should be pointed out - with a modern pc getting a buffer underrun is a less and less likely event - BUT, still best avoided. Manufacturers often recommend a speed plop in the middle of the rating of the burner.

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Battenburg to the power of 20 - said by Richie Royale in a moment of genius. 4pm. Wed 16th Nov 2011. Remember where you were....

Point is, ibliss, is that you came to see this thread. The title worked.

Interesting titles, more often than not, make people look at your thread. Some people need to lighten up around here. And not be so rude. It's a forum of music makers, not pedants.


just my opinion.

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www.mikeandersonmusic.co.uk

The issue that seems to catch most people out is using a CD-R designed for one range of burning speeds on a burner designed (or configured) for another.

Burning discs intended for 12x and higher at 1x will produce unreliable results in the same way as using 1x discs at 24x burn speed.

The Plextor drives often come with analysis software that allwos you to check the block error rates of burned discs, and if you make some trial burns you'll quickly find the combination of disc type and burn speed that provides the lowest error rate.

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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The Plextor drives often come with analysis software that allwos you to check the block error rates of burned discs, and if you make some trial burns you'll quickly find the combination of disc type and burn speed that provides the lowest error rate.

---

Is there any software that enables checking the error rate of CDRs burnt on a mac's internal cd burner that you know of?

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No longer a forum member.

Thanks guys.I've had a hard week and thouhgt it may have been me.

I've got the external and EIDE version of
Yamaha CRW-F1

It claims it was built for audio,that's why I am questioning the setup you are talking about.Further to that if all cd burners are equal,why are there different version?

Hugh! You didn't get angry! Are you ok?

Personally, I don't care for the thread title either, but I am not going to make an issue of it. The title of a thread should convey what is being discussed in the thread, and "1X" is a bit vague. If the poster thinks that his choice of titles is what is going to attract the most interest, then who am I to argue? I personally feel that I get the most interest when I am pretty clear in the topic.

I find that 8X seems to be about right for most of what I do with the Taiyo Yuden CDs that I buy for use with my Plextor drive. I find that if I burn any faster (16X, 24X, etc.), I don't really notice much of a quality degradation, but I do notice that sometimes the CD will start skipping within a month or two or three...

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James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

I did get the point about the title of the thread.Forgive me for I have sinned.It won't happen again.Everyone happy?

It's the only forum I come to apart from my soundcard's one so I have time to read everything,but I understand that you guys are trying to create a standard.

I will do a hundred lines after work tonight(and don't even think it).

Thank you

Quote noiseconjecture:

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Is there any software that enables checking the error rate of CDRs burnt on a mac's internal cd burner that you know of?

---

You'll have to install a Plextor drive and run Plextools under Virtual PC - this very question has been discussed a number of times on various mastering forums and no-one has come up with any other alternative.

Cheers

James.

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JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

Quote Music Manic:

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I've got the external and EIDE version of
Yamaha CRW-F1

It claims it was built for audio,that's why I am questioning the setup you are talking about.Further to that if all cd burners are equal,why are there different version?

---

The first thing that you need to check is whether your 1X and higher speed discs are data identical. Have you tried extracting the audio from them and digitally comparing this with the source? If there are differences then you have a problem with the burner or the discs themselves. If there are no differences then we have to start to look at what you are playing them on. Are you using an integrated CD player or are you using a separate DAC? How sensitive to jitter is the DAC.

You have a decent drive but drives have a finite lifetime and, if it has been well used, there is a possibility that it is starting to fail. There is really no substitute for running a proper set of diagnostic tests to find the source of the differences you hear.

Cheers

James.

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JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

"Point is, ibliss, is that you came to see this thread. The title worked."

Well, no. I opened it thinking "of all the lazy titles I've seen..." and then proceeded to vent, and in doing so did something evil myself by posting totally off topic and not relevent to the thread (well, it was in a way, but not that helpful - should have vented in Community). Sorry about that MM and others.

Anyway

I'd second James' idea - try ripping the CD back into your computer and doing some kind of comparison of the source and copy. I wonder if you put the two into a multitrack and reversed the phase of one what you might be left with? If you did the same with a disc burnt at a higher speed, is there more or less difference between the copy and source?

I'm no expert but can the 0's and 1's be identical on both discs and different when played on each cd.

One thing the yamaha drive does is write the data over a longer distance as you would have on an analogue tape.30ips would be better than 15ips right? Then we would come down to dye on cd,laser of player etc.

Will test on same player tomorrow.

Quote Mowens800:

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I figured 1x would be about burning speeds.

I agree though that people shouldn't post "big problem" as a thread title, those ones are stupid. People do it hoping curiosity will result in more people checking it out.

You burned the tracks at 1x, but did you actually compare them to the same material burned at a faster speed? or just what you can remember previously hearing, because if not, that wouldn't be a fair test, also your hearing cannot decided which is better that way, it needs instant A/B comparisons far as I understand, which might not be very far

Burning slower is better though, reduces error. I think Bob Katz recommends 2x or 4x, no faster, but that will change as drives get faster and more accurate. (at a guess)

---

Pillock! I for one had no idea what thew thread was about either. I think you are mistaking us with the OTHER SOS forum, where all the members have paranormal powers. I myself was banned as apparently MY paranormal powers are an an ability to cause spontsaneous combustion of forum threads. Dunno WHERE I got that from....

But I have to say I too have experienced the 1x burning syndrome on an elderly Yamaha burner. only trouble is, it doesn`t like 80 track media.

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

Quote Music Manic:

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I'm no expert but can the 0's and 1's be identical on both discs and different when played on each cd.

One thing the yamaha drive does is write the data over a longer distance as you would have on an analogue tape.30ips would be better than 15ips right? Then we would come down to dye on cd,laser of player etc.

Will test on same player tomorrow.

---

It is certainly possible for different CD's carrying the same data to sound different on certain CD players. This says more about the quality of the CD player than the discs though - as a decent CD player will always play the same data in the same way.

The Yamaha drive is actually stretching the CD pit lengths closer to the limits of the Red Book tolerances in order to obtain a disc with a shorter playing time so could actually be causing greater problems with certain CD players. I'm not convinced that this isn't just a gimmick. However, audiophiles seem to like this kind of gimmick which is why it has appeared on other drives now.

Cheers

James.

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JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

can i just mildly defend the original poster by asking why some people had a little ribbing at the "1x" title, and yet no-one complains at the , at least weekly", "your advice on this" or "i have a question" or this weeks "your two cents about this one" ....



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Battenburg to the power of 20 - said by Richie Royale in a moment of genius. 4pm. Wed 16th Nov 2011. Remember where you were....

Quote narcoman:

---

can i just mildly defend the original poster by asking why some people had a little ribbing at the "1x" title, and yet no-one complains at the , at least weekly", "your advice on this" or "i have a question" or this weeks "your two cents about this one" ....

---

For my part I would have let it lie but for the initial comment and the poster`s reaction to it.

Mostly people who put up idiotic subject lines get what they deserve, myself included.
Come to think of it there is prolly more on this thread about the subject line than his original post,,,,,

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

Quote narcoman:

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can i just mildly defend the original poster by asking why some people had a little ribbing at the "1x" title, and yet no-one complains at the , at least weekly", "your advice on this" or "i have a question" or this weeks "your two cents about this one" ....

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A friend at last.

Quote IvanSC:

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Quote narcoman:

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can i just mildly defend the original poster by asking why some people had a little ribbing at the "1x" title, and yet no-one complains at the , at least weekly", "your advice on this" or "i have a question" or this weeks "your two cents about this one" ....

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For my part I would have let it lie but for the initial comment and the poster`s reaction to it.

Mostly people who put up idiotic subject lines get what they deserve, myself included.
Come to think of it there is prolly more on this thread about the subject line than his original post,,,,,

---

You sound hurt for no reason,seeing my reaction had nothing to do with you.

I have the right to defend myself if I am insulted,and come to think of it If one doesn't like what's in the window,one doesn't have to walk in the shop.Simple as that.
What type of reaction does a person feel when he is insulted by a grown man,without constructive criticism?
I would've expected that at school not here.

If you are one of those people who think everybody should behave and react in a certain manner why do you come to such forums? These places are for people who don't understand and need help in certain things musical.Nothing to do with English grammar.Further to that,this is a Democracy not a Dictatorship?

"I got what I deserved"

How childish!!!

A nice, concise and obvious title. This is a music production forum! Come on!

I tend to burn at 8 or 16 times, using TaioYuden discs. All fine.

As pointed out, you ought to match media with speed, and I like to leave a margin when burning, so I never burn at maximum speed.

G

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PA stuff on FB

Yes always use TaioYuden Guy for important jobs and they've never failed me yet.
Going to test more over week.

MM:"...What type of reaction does a person feel when he is insulted by a grown man,without constructive criticism?
."

I didn't insult you, and the critisism (of poor thread titling) was constructive.

You then called me stupid for not being 'getting' the blindingly obvious "1x" thread title.

I later posted again to apologise for posting Off Topic, which you do not seem to have taken into account.

MM"These places are for people who don't understand and need help in certain things musical."

Which was kind of my point really - they don't come here to wade through a series of cryptic thread titles in the hope that they might read something useful.

-nuff said, as they say.-

Quote Music Manic:

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I did get the point about the title of the thread.Forgive me for I have sinned.It won't happen again.Everyone happy?....I will do a hundred lines after work tonight(and don't even think it).

Thank you

---

These folks were rough on you! I agree, the title of the thread could've been a wee bit more descriptive, but g-d,,,, they ripped you a new one. Glad you took it in stride, because this really is a great forum.
DAn

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Gear list: If you can't find it, grind it

Quote ibliss:

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MM:"...What type of reaction does a person feel when he is insulted by a grown man,without constructive criticism?
."

I didn't insult you, and the critisism (of poor thread titling) was constructive.

You then called me stupid for not being 'getting' the blindingly obvious "1x" thread title.

I later posted again to apologise for posting Off Topic, which you do not seem to have taken into account.

MM"These places are for people who don't understand and need help in certain things musical."

Which was kind of my point really - they don't come here to wade through a series of cryptic thread titles in the hope that they might read something useful.

-nuff said, as they say.-

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Don't worry ibliss I still have love for you as a fellow human being.We're quits,and I do respect any comments but do like to answer back

Quote MadManDan:

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Quote Music Manic:

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I did get the point about the title of the thread.Forgive me for I have sinned.It won't happen again.Everyone happy?....I will do a hundred lines after work tonight(and don't even think it).

Thank you

---

These folks were rough on you! I agree, the title of the thread could've been a wee bit more descriptive, but g-d,,,, they ripped you a new one. Glad you took it in stride, because this really is a great forum.
DAn

---

I can take it because "I'm a macho macho maa-aan!"

Damn! Just when this was getting to be fun, you all went touchy-feely on me!

P.S. anyone who uses y`all HAS to be from the South, so I guess I have to forgive you.

OOTP: One thing I have noticed is that I get MUCH more reliable burns on my elderly Yamaha nopn-80 min drive for audio than anything else I own, regardless of speed. `course it IS a bummer when you forget and try to read a "big" cd in it.....

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

Is it too late to say that I immediately understood the thread subject from the title (even tough the title has now been changed)?

Yes, much too late. I changed the title to try to isolate that rather pointless aspect of the discussion from the more relevant and interesting one.

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

I really don't like the title thread of this post.

in trying to get this thread back on an interesting track (hugh)
I always burn at maximum double speed if its for a pressing plant... I figure if i have spent weeks on a project whats the point in hurrying the last hour and burning at a speed close to light ? I use the time burning to write or print the details for the plant on the box etc:
also i do not trust tolerances with the CD holes as burning faster can cause the CD to wobble and vibrate which cant to the error count any good:::::
hope that opens a new can of worms

--------------------
I could´nt sleep till I put it down

Quote artbreak:

---

I always burn at maximum double speed if its for a pressing plant...

---

How do you know that this is giving you best results? Do you test the master CD's that you send to the pressing plant?

Cheers

James.

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JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

well james I havent the error checking machines (nice tho aren't they),I do carry out a null test with the resulting Pre-Productions Master and my pressing plant of chioce is Sony in Anif/Salzburg.Until this time i have had none rejected.
If i have a spare few hours I will burn at different speeds tho I dont think I will hear much sonic difference from this.
(will certainly test this theory tho ...anyone else done this?)

I also perform a null test with the end product as one is never sure whose bored little hands your project falls into and that he /she decides your music is not bassy enough

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I could´nt sleep till I put it down

Sounds like you are taking a sensible approach although a Plextor drive with Plextools isn't that expensive if you want a more quantifiable test. I'm just trying to dispel all the myths and rumours around CD burning. On some CD players you will certainly hear differences between discs burned at different speeds - but all that tells you is that it is time to throw out that CD player and buy something that works properly.

If you want to improve the sound of the CD's pressed from your masters then you have to talk to the pressing plant and see if they will run their glass mastering process at a lower speed for you. The quality of the glass master bears no relation to the quality of the CD master you send the plant (despite what many people believe) and there are various tweaks that certain plants have carried out to improve the sound of CD's when played in jitter sensitive CD players. At one point JVC had a 1X low jitter LBR while I know that DCA, who make the glass mastering systems that many plants use, have taken steps to improve the jitter performance of their systems.

Cheers

James.

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JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

This seems relevant to some of this discussion. I find it interesting, but I'm not endorsing (or not) any of the ideas.

http://www.rogernichols.com/EQ/EQ_2000_02.html

Quote Jeraldo:

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This seems relevant to some of this discussion. I find it interesting, but I'm not endorsing (or not) any of the ideas.

http://www.rogernichols.com/EQ/EQ_2000_02.html

---

The point I keep expressing about the 0s and 1s being the same on all cds is pointed out here.The laser may express them differently thus giving a different analogue waveform to the ear.
Press mastering is different to burning though isn't it because everyone is the same as opposed to the different dyes etc of a blank cd-r.
Yes the clock of the D/A is also going to contribute to the audio signal.

So what is proved?
If the Jitter is perfect,will all cds sound the same?
If the cds are physically the same jitter problems will definitely change the sound each time.
If error correction contributes to adding missed 0s and 1s will it re-represent the exact waveform?

Quote Music Manic:

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Press mastering is different to burning though isn't it because everyone is the same as opposed to the different dyes etc of a blank cd-r.

---

Yes, it's a totally different process, but the issues would seem to be the same. I think...

Quote Music Manic:

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The point I keep expressing about the 0s and 1s being the same on all cds is pointed out here.

---

...but it's not true. A CD is an analogue recording medium, just like everything else. In the cases of both pressed and burned CDs the designers chose to represent the data by using the pit length -- but normal pressing/burning variations mean that pit lengths vary slightly.

This results in a form of jitter that needs to be removed before the data can be extracted reliably. Not all CD player systems are equal in this regard.

In extreme cases, the error correction system has to work a lot harder to recover the data. This combined with the jitter effects can have audible effects on other parts of the CD players circuitry -- most usually the power supply systems. Varying PSU levels will affect analogue circuitry in quite subtle but audible ways.

Quote:

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Press mastering is different to burning though isn't it because everyone is the same as opposed to the different dyes etc of a blank cd-r.

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Not really. Pressed discs are stamped out and that stamper wears out relatively quickly. So the first discs produced will have much more sharply defined pits than the last discs it produces. Hence, varying levels of data jitter again, and possibly significantly lower definition of the reflected laser light to signify the difference between the presence of absence of a pit -- meaning a noiseier signal to start recovering data from.

Quote:

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If the Jitter is perfect,will all cds sound the same?

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It never can be. The medium and the production professes are imperfect. As they are in all recording formats.

Quote:

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If error correction contributes to adding missed 0s and 1s will it re-represent the exact waveform?

---

It will if it is working correctly. Error correction does what it says on the tin. It corrects the data, and there fore the output will be correct.

The problem is that the error correction employed in audio CDs is relatively weak and feeble, and was actually optimised to fight a specific disc problem that was quickly eliminated by the factories when CDs started to be mass produced.

So when the going gets tough the error correction system actually gives up and relieds on 'interpolation' during which it guesses tat the best fit sample value given what came before and after the bad bit. Clearly, that won't be exactly the same as the original...

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

After I voted for max rating of thread, the forum said I voted a 1, so a star disappeared.

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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So when the going gets tough the error correction system actually gives up and relieds on 'interpolation' during which it guesses tat the best fit sample value given what came before and after the bad bit. Clearly, that won't be exactly the same as the original...

Hugh

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Uncorrectable errors on well looked after CD's are very rare - I only see them on CD's that have been obviously scratched. Even second level correctable errors are rare on most clean CD's that I've checked. The audio CD error correction system is possibly better than Hugh implies, although it is certainly inferior to that used for data CD's.

Cheers

James.

--------------------
JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net