I was not going to post this yet until certain issues were finalised but it makes sense to have a tag to it here at MRT in the meantime.

Ok, thanks to DH (Doublehelix) for his input/idea and here are his amended 'rules'.

Before I go on I would like to state that Ian and the lads at Sos have kindly agreed to offer a prize/s for the winner/s etc. I will keep you informed about this when it is finalised.

I will be one of the judges, along with Paul White, possibly a cursory glance by Hugh and we are waiting for others to jump in.

I will probably extend the timeline on this as we will need to think this through simply because we need time to be able to judge constructively, collate all entries etc.
Ian might even tie this into the mag/e-sub.

Thanks to Ian and the Sos staff for their support.


Here are the rules:


1) These rules are subject to discussion and possible changes up until December 31, 2007. After that date, no further modifications will be made to the rules. Doublehelix will be the final moderator of the rules up until the contest begins, and from that point forward, the appointed judges will act as moderators for any "issues" that crop up.

2) The contest will begin on January 1, 2008, and will be completed on January 31, 2008. A "winner" will be decided by February 15, 2008. Final judges TBD (Zuk, are you in buddy?). Participants can be either individuals or teams.

3) Judging will be based on most creative use of the limited resources available (see list below), and the quality of the recording. No "points" will be given for original interpretation, although this is encouraged. This is not a musical composition competition, but rather a recording techniques competition, and it will be judged as such. A point scale will be determined for several categories, and final points will be tallied by the judges, and a winner determined.

4) There will only be one winner (although a first-place tie will be allowed). EVERYONE ELSE WILL FINISH IN A TIE FOR SECOND!!! A score card with everyone's scores WILL NOT BE MADE AVAILABLE! (This is for fun, remember???) First place, and lots of second places!

5) The Beatles song "Come Together" is the song that is to be recorded. Each contestant has complete free reign on how their final entry will be arranged and compiled. There will not be any points for original arrangement or interpretation however. Technical merit only.

6) 8-track limit, with as much bouncing as necessary. (This is kind-of "cheating", since the Beatles would lose quality in the analog domain for each generation of bounce, but since we are in the digital domain for the most part nowadays, there is no reason to limit these advantages.)

7) All instruments are to be of a similar type and style as were used in the original recording. This is to encourage miking techniques rather than 100% direct inject recordings of synthesizers and keyboards. Direct keyboards may be used, but they may not be more than TWO TRACKS TOTAL (including bounced tracks). Remember, this is a recording/miking contest!!! Some instruments lend themselves to direct injection, such as a bass guitar and keyboards. This is fine, but GUITARS MUST BE MIKED!!! No Pods or virtual guitar emulations. Only miked amps. Here is a list of allowable DI'ed instruments:

-Bass guitar
-Synthesizer (no more than 2 tracks)
-V-Drums (20% point deduction in the rhythm category, see below)

All other instruments MUST BE MIKED!!! This means no DI acoustic guitars or electric guitars. Amplifiers must be miked, and acoustic guitars must be miked not DI'ed.

8) No more than 3 different mics may be used throughout the *entire* process, and no more than 3 at one time. Imagine that you have a mic collection that consists of only 3 mics, and you cannot borrow or rent anything!

9) Programmed drums MAY be used, but there will be a small point deduction for doing so. I am suggesting a 20% point penalty for the drum category (meaning that if you use programmed drums, you are only eligible for a total of 8 points out of a possible 10 for the drum and rhythm category). This evens out the playing field a bit since one of the most difficult parts of this competition is going to be getting a good drum sound out of 3 mics with an 8-track limit. Programmed drums will get an advantage here since the quality will automatically be that of the highest quality that the sample-source can provide. This puts the drum miking guys at a distinct disadvantage, but this is what I had in mind when I came up with the idea... instead of sticking 12-14 mics around a kit like I normally do, limiting myself to 3. This concession however allows folks like Streety, KaYos, markhodges, and Madman_Greg to participate, but does not overly-punish folks that will be miking real percussion. Remember, you *can* use bongos or something else and qualify for the full possible point potential! V-drums count as "programmed" drums since no miking is involved.

REMEMBER, we are not looking for musical talent, but *recording* talent. I just feel that by eliminating programmed or V-Drums, we are keeping some of the good folks around here out of the competition, and that is not cool!

10) No more than one reverb patch, one delay patch, and one chorus patch may be used. These can be set up as "sends" and used on more than one track, but only one patch at a time can be used. EQ and compression may be freely used throughout the process.

11) At least one vocal track *must* be present. Background vocals are optional.

12) A rubric will be created by December 31st with all of the scoring categories, and some guidelines on how each category will be scored. The judges input on the categories and judging criteria will be required.

13) Each contestant will be required to keep an accurate log of each track that was recorded, with the complete signal path (mic/pre/compressor or EQ, etc.). Tracks that are bounced must also be accounted for. Each track log must include the instrument type (and brand?), amp type, and complete signal chain. Inaccurate or incomplete logs will be cause for point loss.

14) Files will be uploaded at 16-bit/44.1 WAV or AIFF files, no MP3s. Mastered tracks are encouraged, but not required.

15) THIS IS FOR FUN!!!

The rules could get amended, or fine tuned, at some point so keep an eye on this thread.

Make sure to email DH all your confirmations of entry please.

Zukan

--------------------
Samplecraze
Stretch That Note

This is really cool Zukan DHelix and !!

Can't wait to get started, (I'm pretty sure that I will score the lowest second place - but that not the point )

I think we might need a little clarification on guitar FX.

I normaly record my electric guitar with the FX chain in place.
Guitar>Chorus>Distortion>Delay>Amp sim>dodgy tranny amp>mic.

Will this be allowed / penalised ?
Thanks

The 8 track limit -I take it that it's 8 mono tracks??

--------------------
[url] http://colinjmorris.bandcamp.com/releases [/url]

Quote Jumpeyspyder:

---

I normaly record my electric guitar with the FX chain in place.
Guitar>Chorus>Distortion>Delay>Amp sim>dodgy tranny amp>mic.

Will this be allowed / penalised ?
Thanks

---

I use a similar setup. I'd also like clarification on this.
Stuart.

--------------------
Birthday Song 4 U. Personalised Birthday Songs

Quote Jumpeyspyder:

---

I think we might need a little clarification on guitar FX.

I normaly record my electric guitar with the FX chain in place.
Guitar>Chorus>Distortion>Delay>Amp sim>dodgy tranny amp>mic.

---

As long as a mic is stuck in front of a speaker to record the guitar, you are good to go!

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

Quote Tootsweet:

---

The 8 track limit -I take it that it's 8 mono tracks??

---

Yes, as if you had an 8-track tape machine.

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

Cheers for the comp guys.

Is there a point deduction for not being able to sing?
I might have to get the girlfriend to sing

--------------------
Disclaimer: Advice is taken at your own risk.

do we have to enter ourselves into the competition or just submit the files by the closing date.
Great idea BTW!

--------------------
Dave

Quote:

---

Direct keyboards may be used, but they may not be more than TWO TRACKS TOTAL (including bounced tracks).

---

Very well. But how about miked synths? As in sticking my Ms10 through a twin reverb and sticking a microphone in front of the lot?

Just to be sure.

Quote Andreas Bygdell:

---

Quote:

---

Direct keyboards may be used, but they may not be more than TWO TRACKS TOTAL (including bounced tracks).

---

Very well. But how about miked synths? As in sticking my Ms10 through a twin reverb and sticking a microphone in front of the lot?

Just to be sure.

---

Not a problem, that would not be considered a "direct keyboard".

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

Any ideas on the prize?

--------------------
www.stablehousestudios.co.uk

and are we trying to make it sound like the original ?

--------------------
www.stablehousestudios.co.uk

Quote fakiekid:

---

and are we trying to make it sound like the original ?

---

It's a sound recording/engineering contest rather than a cover/sound-a-like contest. You won't be judged on that.

are D.I boxes a part of your 3 mic piece?

and there has only got to be 8 tracks!

this will be fun!

--------------------
www.stablehousestudios.co.uk

Quote fakiekid:

---

are D.I boxes a part of your 3 mic piece?

---

I am not exactly sure what you are asking here...

You can use 3 mics, and if you need to also use a DI box, you can do that too, but be sure to see the limit requirement on the number of channels that can be DI'ed.

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

OK,

how are you making sure people are only going to use 8 tracks?

--------------------
www.stablehousestudios.co.uk

Quote fakiekid:

---

OK,

how are you making sure people are only going to use 8 tracks?

---

Tough one! Everyone is to submit a log along with their mix (see more details in the first post), and we just have to trust that people are being honest. I think the judges will have to listen closely for obvious signs of cheating, especially when they are comparing the log with what they hear in the mix.

It is the best we can do I think! The only other thing would be to send in the 8 original tracks along with the mixdown, but that is going to take up too much bandwidth and take too much effort, and is just not worth it!

This is supposed to be for fun, so we just have to trust everyone!

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

Quote Doublehelix:

---

This is supposed to be for fun, so we just have to trust everyone!

---

Agreed. If you cheat you'll only be cheating yourself.

--------------------
Birthday Song 4 U. Personalised Birthday Songs

Wicked!

I can't wait!

Got drums set up as I type !

--------------------
www.stablehousestudios.co.uk

Great idea (and great song) but how are you going to allow for the fact that people will have a great variety of quality of gear and mics, plus the fact that some of us with home studios dont have the space (or neigbours) to allow using real kits and miced guitar amps?

Quote SunShineState:

---

Great idea (and great song) but how are you going to allow for the fact that people will have a great variety of quality of gear and mics, plus the fact that some of us with home studios dont have the space (or neigbours) to allow using real kits and miced guitar amps?

---

I have an even more basic problem, I do not own a guitar amp at the moment. I use a Mesa Boogie v-twin pre amp. But I can mic my acoustic..

--------------------
Madman_Greg

I actually still have my 8 track analog operational so that might be fun to get back to for this recording.

I have a question on the drums - currently I cannot get a drummer and I can't play well enough, so if I were to sample a kit I miked and were to use that sample from say NI Battery will that fall under the point penalty?

Would percussion instead of full drum track work for this?

--------------------
www.descentintomadness.com

Quote 4TrackMadman:

---

I have a question on the drums - currently I cannot get a drummer and I can't play well enough, so if I were to sample a kit I miked and were to use that sample from say NI Battery will that fall under the point penalty?

---

Yes, samples are samples. We are going for miking techniques and the use of minimal resources. Even though you sampled them, they are still "samples".

Quote 4TrackMadman:

---

Would percussion instead of full drum track work for this?

---

Absolutely! Get creative!!!

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

Ooooohh, this sounds like fun - I am but noob, can I play?

Is there any limit on the number of performers? i.e., would it be okay to have a DI'd guitar played by someone else that I later remove and replace with a mic-d one so I can have all three mics on the drum kit while laying down a rhythm track?

Or am I just needlessly overcomplicating things?

Quote smokingbeagle:

---

Or am I just needlessly overcomplicating things?

---

Yep! This is for fun... Don't worry about it too much, you will be fine!

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

50% done!

i really cannot wait to hear what everyone has done with the song!

--------------------
www.stablehousestudios.co.uk

what?! you've started?

--------------------
I'm a student. Don't listen...

Edited by Streety (22/12/07 05:49 PM)

mate im nearly done! one more instrument to add, track number 8! woop!!

how are we 'submitting' the work?

--------------------
www.stablehousestudios.co.uk

Edited by fakiekid (22/12/07 11:40 PM)

So are we gonna have a consolidated rule list by tomorrow? It'd be nice not to have to pick and choose rules from a list of posts!



--------------------
[url] http://colinjmorris.bandcamp.com/releases [/url]

Quote Tootsweet:

---

So are we gonna have a consolidated rule list by tomorrow? It'd be nice not to have to pick and choose rules from a list of posts!

---

Actually, I don't think anything has changed from the original rules list posting, just a few clarifications. I can go back through this thread and make sure, and will make sure to post an upgrade if necessary.

I am worried now that I will have a place to record anything before the deadline! I am *still* trying to finish the construction on my place, and the clock is a-ticking! Ouch!

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

OK, here is an updated version of the rules. The changes I have made since the last posting are in bold.

We still need to finalize the list of participants, and work on the upload site. I will see what I can get organized here in the next day or so.

ZUKAN: Any update from your end on the judges/prizes/time frame???


RULES:



1) These rules are subject to discussion and possible changes up until December 31, 2007. After that date, no further modifications will
be made to the rules. Doublehelix will be the final moderator of the rules up until the contest begins, and from that point forward, the
appointed judges will act as moderators for any "issues" that crop up.

2) The contest will begin on January 1, 2008, and will be completed on January 31, 2008. A "winner" will be decided by February 15,
2008. Final judges TBD (Zuk, are you in buddy?). Participants can be either individuals or teams.

3) Judging will be based on most creative use of the limited resources available (see list below), and the quality of the recording. No
"points" will be given for original interpretation, although this is encouraged. This is not a musical composition competition, but
rather a recording techniques competition, and it will be judged as such. A point scale will be determined for several categories, and
final points will be tallied by the judges, and a winner determined.

4) There will only be one winner (although a first-place tie will be allowed). EVERYONE ELSE WILL FINISH IN A TIE FOR SECOND!!! A score
card with everyone's scores WILL NOT BE MADE AVAILABLE! (This is for fun, remember???) First place, and lots of second places!

5) The Beatles song "Come Together" is the song that is to be recorded. Each contestant has complete free reign on how their final entry
will be arranged and compiled. There will not be any points for original arrangement or interpretation however. Technical merit only.

6) 8-track limit (8 mono tracks), with as much bouncing as necessary. (This is kind-of "cheating", since the Beatles would lose
quality in the analog domain for each generation of bounce, but since we are in the digital domain for the most part nowadays, there is
no reason to limit these advantages.)

7) All instruments are to be of a similar type and style as were used in the original recording. This is to encourage miking techniques
rather than 100% direct inject recordings of synthesizers and keyboards. Direct keyboards may be used, but they may not be more than TWO
TRACKS TOTAL (including bounced tracks). Remember, this is a recording/miking contest!!! Some instruments lend themselves to direct
injection, such as a bass guitar and keyboards. This is fine, but GUITARS MUST BE MIKED!!! No Pods or virtual guitar emulations. Only
miked amps. Here is a list of allowable DI'ed instruments:

-Bass guitar
-Synthesizer (no more than 2 tracks)
-V-Drums (20% point deduction in the rhythm category, see below)

All other instruments MUST BE MIKED!!! This means no DI acoustic guitars or electric guitars. Amplifiers must be miked, and acoustic
guitars must be miked not DI'ed.

Guitars can be run through any type of amp sim, etc., as long as the signal is then run through an amp/speaker combination, and then
miked.

8) No more than 3 different mics may be used throughout the *entire* process, and no more than 3 at one time. Imagine that you have a
mic collection that consists of only 3 mics, and you cannot borrow or rent anything! Recording a direct "scratch" or "guide" track
along with other "real" tracks is ok as long as that track is later replaced by a real miked track.

9) Programmed drums MAY be used, but there will be a small point deduction for doing so. I am suggesting a 20% point penalty for the
drum category (meaning that if you use programmed drums, you are only eligible for a total of 8 points out of a possible 10 for the drum
and rhythm category). This evens out the playing field a bit since one of the most difficult parts of this competition is going to be
getting a good drum sound out of 3 mics with an 8-track limit. Programmed drums will get an advantage here since the quality will
automatically be that of the highest quality that the sample-source can provide. This puts the drum miking guys at a distinct
disadvantage, but this is what I had in mind when I came up with the idea... instead of sticking 12-14 mics around a kit like I normally
do, limiting myself to 3. This concession however allows folks like Streety, KaYos, markhodges, and Madman_Greg to participate, but does
not overly-punish folks that will be miking real percussion. Remember, you *can* use bongos or something else and qualify for the full
possible point potential! V-drums count as "programmed" drums since no miking is involved.

If you use sampled drums, even if you originally recorded the samples, you are subject to the point deduction. "Samples are samples".
This includes SAMPLE REPLACEMENT techniques such as Drumagog or other similar programs.I am personally a big fan of sample replacement,
but I cannot use it for this project.

REMEMBER, we are not looking for musical talent, but *recording* talent. I just feel that by eliminating programmed or V-Drums, we are
keeping some of the good folks around here out of the competition, and that is not cool! Therefore, rather than prohibitting their
use, we are just penalizing their use to even the playing field a little bit.

If drums are not available, any form of percussion is allowed without penalty as long as the percussion is miked and no more than 3
mics are used.

10) No more than one reverb patch, one delay patch, and one chorus patch may be used. These can be set up as "sends" and used on more
than one track, but only one patch at a time can be used. EQ and compression may be freely used throughout the process.

11) At least one vocal track *must* be present. Background vocals are optional.

12) A rubric will be created by December 31st with all of the scoring categories, and some guidelines on how each category will be
scored. The judges input on the categories and judging criteria will be required.

13) Each contestant will be required to keep an accurate log of each track that was recorded, with the complete signal path
(mic/pre/compressor or EQ, etc.). Tracks that are bounced must also be accounted for. Each track log must include the instrument type
(and brand?), amp type, and complete signal chain. Inaccurate or incomplete logs will be cause for point loss.

14) Files will be uploaded at 16-bit/44.1 WAV or AIFF files, no MP3s. Mastered tracks are encouraged, but not required.

15) THIS IS FOR FUN!!!

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

Cool. Thanks.

--------------------
[url] http://colinjmorris.bandcamp.com/releases [/url]

Well I'm 75% of the way. Make sure my names down!

--------------------
www.stablehousestudios.co.uk

Quote fakiekid:

---

Well I'm 75% of the way. Make sure my names down!

---

No problem, please send me your email address through a PM or an email.

Thanks1

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

can I please ask for some clarification

my normal setup is electric guitar into a mesa boogie pre amp direct into the sound card

provided I take the output of this out of studio monitors then mic the speakers and record, I think I am compliant with the rules and regs

Is that correct

Thanks

--------------------
Madman_Greg

Quote Madman_Greg:

---

can I please ask for some clarification

my normal setup is electric guitar into a mesa boogie pre amp direct into the sound card

provided I take the output of this out of studio monitors then mic the speakers and record, I think I am compliant with the rules and regs

Is that correct

Thanks

---

Go for it!!! Sounds great to me!!!

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

Quote Doublehelix:

---

13) Each contestant will be required to keep an accurate log of each track that was recorded, with the complete signal path
(mic/pre/compressor or EQ, etc.).

---

How much info is required here? Are we talking EQ settings, Comp ratio, attack & release times, reverb & delay settings, etc? Or do you just want the signal path?

--------------------
Birthday Song 4 U. Personalised Birthday Songs

Quote stuart churchill:

---

Quote Doublehelix:

---

13) Each contestant will be required to keep an accurate log of each track that was recorded, with the complete signal path
(mic/pre/compressor or EQ, etc.).

---

How much info is required here? Are we talking EQ settings, Comp ratio, attack & release times, reverb & delay settings, etc? Or do you just want the signal path?

---

Signal path is *more* than enough! It is a way to keep track of who is doing what. The winner might want to provide more details of specific settings, but certainly nothing more than the signal patch is required.

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

Q. Where are we to upload the finished entry? I guess the finished WAV files will be 30-40Mb each. Also can we upload a Word doc with the recording log etc?

Many thx SSS

Quote SunShineState:

---

Q. Where are we to upload the finished entry? I guess the finished WAV files will be 30-40Mb each. Also can we upload a Word doc with the recording log etc?

Many thx SSS

---

Good idea about setting a format for the log file. Let me work on this a bit more, and I will post a specific set of instructions.

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

What I've done so far is a word doc and at each step listed instrument, mic, signal path etc along with a box showing the 8 tracks and what is currently in them. I've also added a short summary at the top about what I was trying to set out to achieve with the track.

cheers

Quote SunShineState:

---

What I've done so far is a word doc and at each step listed instrument, mic, signal path etc along with a box showing the 8 tracks and what is currently in them. I've also added a short summary at the top about what I was trying to set out to achieve with the track.

cheers

---

Sounds GREAT! Perfect.

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

do you know how many people are going to enter yet??

It would be great to hear everyone's efforts eventually!

Cheers

Quote SunShineState:

---

do you know how many people are going to enter yet??

It would be great to hear everyone's efforts eventually!

Cheers

---

I would also like to hear everyone's finished work. (And I'm also planning to enter.) Which begs the question how do we officially enter? Will we just download our file and log or should we let you know we're interested (as I just have)?

This should be loads of fun since I normally use electronic drums. Now to convince the wife that the stairwell is the best sounding drum room in the house. Guess I'll just have to send her shopping for the afternoon.

Michael

--------------------
Main:P4 2.8GHz 2GB Delta 1010 Mobile:P4 2.0GHz 2GB Presonus Firebox SONAR Prod 5.2 Reaper Dimension Pro Sound Forge 7 Tunes: www.bigedtwins.com/Tunes

Hey Micheal, I am going to be compiling the list of those that I know expressed interest in the contest, and will post that tomorrow. Please send me a PM with your email address however.

Thanks!

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

Hey!

I'm up for having a bash at this, count me in

Paul

Quote Paulos13:

---

Hey!

I'm up for having a bash at this, count me in

Paul

---

Please PM me with your email address!

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

Is this the "Come Together" contest?

I've been out of the loop a little bit.

Quote leslawrenson:

---

Is this the "Come Together" contest?

I've been out of the loop a little bit.

---

Yep!

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

Hi DH, any news re the list of entrants and how we are going to submit our entries? thx

Quote SunShineState:

---

Hi DH, any news re the list of entrants and how we are going to submit our entries? thx

---

Ditto. I PM'd my e-mail address to you as requested and feverishly trying to get project completed as we speak.

Michael

--------------------
Main:P4 2.8GHz 2GB Delta 1010 Mobile:P4 2.0GHz 2GB Presonus Firebox SONAR Prod 5.2 Reaper Dimension Pro Sound Forge 7 Tunes: www.bigedtwins.com/Tunes

I am working on compiling the list of entrants, this is just a time issue. I will try to get to that today, sorry!

As far as where to upload the songs to...

We had someone volunteer to host the files a couple of weeks ago, but I am not unable to contact that person. I will keep trying obviously.

If anyone has any other options for hosting the files, let me know.

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

Quote Doublehelix:

---

As far as where to upload the songs to...

---

I have space on both my websites, 400MB on each. Would that help?

--------------------
Birthday Song 4 U. Personalised Birthday Songs

Quote stuart churchill:

---

Quote Doublehelix:

---

As far as where to upload the songs to...

---

I have space on both my websites, 400MB on each. Would that help?

---

Thanks! I'll let you know!!!

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

I reckon about 40 - 50 MB per song. How many are participating?

--------------------
Birthday Song 4 U. Personalised Birthday Songs

Quote stuart churchill:

---

I reckon about 40 - 50 MB per song. How many are participating?

---

Well, I need to get the final tally, and see how many are still "in" from the original, but I am guess that we are at least at 20 since there are several new entrants, and we had a list of 17 a long time ago.

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

OK folks, here is where we are:

First off, I personally am going to have drop out of the contest! My studio is still not complete nor able to record anything. I had hoped to be done, but things are moving much more slowly than I had anticipated. The floors are going in now, but we still need to finish the doors, do all the trim work, paint the live room, move all the gear and hook it up, etc.

Sorry, but it is unfortunately my life at the moment.


OK, here is where we are with participants. I sent out a message to all of you just a moment ago, asking you to reply if you are NO LONGER INTERESTED. I figured that would be a smaller list than those that still are. So, if you passed along your email address to me, check your email boxes!

Here is the list of those folks that expressed interest, and also forwarded me their email. The list is up to 21 participants (In alphabetical order):

bbqsauce
Dave B
David
fakiekid
geefunk
guy999
Jumpeyspyder
KaYos
leslawrenson
Madman_Greg
markhodges
Paulos13
Reds
stevie j
Streety
stuart churchill
SunShineState
thenaturallevel
Tootsweet
Wease
yarimurray


If your name is NOT on this list, I need to know ASAP by forwarding to me your email address, and if you are no longer interested, please either email me or PM me and let me know that as well.

Still working on the file hosting issue, but we should have that resolved here shortly.

Best of luck to all of you, I wish I could be there amongst you!!!

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

James many thx for organising this - Great idea SoS should make it a regular feature! Who had the original idea btw?

Quote SunShineState:

---

Q. Where are we to upload the finished entry? I guess the finished WAV files will be 30-40Mb each. Also can we upload a Word doc with the recording log etc?

Many thx SSS

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not sure where or how to send this , help please

Quote bakup:

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Quote SunShineState:

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Q. Where are we to upload the finished entry? I guess the finished WAV files will be 30-40Mb each. Also can we upload a Word doc with the recording log etc?

Many thx SSS

---

not sure where or how to send this , help please

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Not ready yet, be patient. We have a site, but are working out the logistics.

Bakup, you are not on the "list", you must forward your email to me in order to be included. Did you see the list above of the contestants so far? We have been communicating via email already, and you not have not been a part of the communications and will not be until you do so.

Thank you.

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

IMPORTANT CONTEST UPDATE:


The end date of the contest has been delayed a bit. This is so that we can finalize magazine support and participation.

This is a GOOD thing, although I know some of you are already working on your projects, and some of you may be already done!

I do not have any final dates yet, but there will be a meeting of the SOS mods towards the end of January, so we should know something more specific at that time. Let's say that we should have some more specific information as to start and end dates around February 1st.

This also gives time for more participants to join in on the fun, so if you were thinking about joining, but felt it was too late, jump on in!!!

I am also sending this message out via email to all of the currently registered participants.

Thank you for your understanding.

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James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

The delay suits me because I've ordered a new guitar that I'll probably use on the recording, but it's out of stock and I won't get it until around the end of January.

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Birthday Song 4 U. Personalised Birthday Songs

hope it won't drag on toooo long though - I've nearly finished and I'm dying to hear the others!

I can't enter this due to being already *under the pump* with other projects during jan / feb, but YOU HAVE TO MAKE IT A REGULAR! like a quarterly competition or something, would be well up for at a later date

[especially up for winning some goodies of you blokes ]

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Thank heavens for good music.

Hi guys any progress on where we are going to host these, and deadline date yet? It would be really cool if say Hugh and Paul could review all the entries in the mag - would make a great feature???

From my post above:

Quote:

---

I do not have any final dates yet, but there will be a meeting of the SOS mods towards the end of January, so we should know something more specific at that time. Let's say that we should have some more specific information as to start and end dates around February 1st.

---

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

Wouldn't it be great if SOS could get George Martin to assist Zuk with the judging.... !

There's a spot where entries could be stored to allow folks to listen to them... if something hasn't already been sorted:

I'm trialling it (and there's a "come together" of mine up there...

http://www.4shared.com/dir/5416079/fb221f3d/sharing.html

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[url=http://www.facebook.com/pages/hifi-studios/117322741632389[/url]

still no final word on the date? im still taking its february 1st, neeeed to get my organ done sooon!

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www.stablehousestudios.co.uk

Quote hifistud2:

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There's a spot where entries could be stored to allow folks to listen to them... if something hasn't already been sorted:

I'm trialling it (and there's a "come together" of mine up there...

---

Hifistud2:

I must have missed this before! First off, I love what you have done with the song! It sounds great! I understand that you used more than 3 mics, and that you recorded this before the contest began so it would not qualify, but the song sound great!!! I love the slide guitar!

This is going to be a fun and really great contest!!!

Anyway, the point of your post was the file-sharing site, not your song! Sorry, I got caught up in the song, and forgot all else!

I suppose this could work, except it looks like you can only play the file, and not download it, is that correct?

Also, we had specified WAV and not MP3 since we are looking for recording and technical quality. Do you think it would be possible to take up that much bandwidth?

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

Quote fakiekid:

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still no final word on the date? im still taking its february 1st, neeeed to get my organ done sooon!

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We will have a date set by February 1st, but the end date WILL NOT BE february 1st.

We should know more by that date, meaning that the magazine should have a better idea if and how they want to participate. They will probably set a date out another month or two after that if I had to guess... but again, I am only guessing.

I know it is hard, but let's stay as patient as we can, and hear what comes out of that meeting at the end of this month.

Thanks!

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James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

What's happening on the copyright aspect of this? I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere (apologies if I've missed something but I did a search and couldn't find a mention of it). Does everyone have to sort it out for themselves or will SOS (if they get involved) arrange some group deal that covers all participants? Even if you are just going to make the winning entrants available for public download, then these will need to be catered for.

Quote Doublehelix:

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I must have missed this before! First off, I love what you have done with the song! It sounds great! I understand that you used more than 3 mics, and that you recorded this before the contest began so it would not qualify, but the song sound great!!! I love the slide guitar!

This is going to be a fun and really great contest!!!

---

Blush....

Quote:

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Anyway, the point of your post was the file-sharing site, not your song! Sorry, I got caught up in the song, and forgot all else!

I suppose this could work, except it looks like you can only play the file, and not download it, is that correct?

---

AIUI you can downoad - I know there's a switch which allows me to prevent downloads.

Quote:

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Also, we had specified WAV and not MP3 since we are looking for recording and technical quality. Do you think it would be possible to take up that much bandwidth?

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Yes, you can use .wav - I'll be putting some wavs up there later, assuming the bands don't mind - we've used mp3 so that the quality isn't as high as a CD track... Anyway, you get 5 gigs of space for free - more for a small fee - ought to be enough for this particular contest, and I'm sure that SOS could maybe spring for the 20 gig or higher space - it's not expensive.

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[url=http://www.facebook.com/pages/hifi-studios/117322741632389[/url]

WW: Great question on the copyright... Not sure how this is dealt with in a situation like this... Does anyone know???

Hifistud2: Thanks for the info, that site might end up working out just fine!

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

Quote Doublehelix:

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WW: Great question on the copyright... Not sure how this is dealt with in a situation like this... Does anyone know???

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I think it may come under fair dealing - but I'd humbly suggest that the experts make the mag, and will very probably know.

Quote:

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Hifistud2: Thanks for the info, that site might end up working out just fine!

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My pleasure - and thanks for the comments! There's a few more tracks up there that we've done - I think if you click here it'll get you there...

Bestest

Dave

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[url=http://www.facebook.com/pages/hifi-studios/117322741632389[/url]

Just checking the Forum rules, I note number 3 states:

3. Copyright material must not be posted unless it is owned either by you or by this web site.

Nothing about cover versions with (or without) clearance. Either you own the track or SOS own it or else it doesn't get posted/linked to.

The competition is a great idea, but either the rules get changed or SOS (or a forum member who's happy for the song to be covered), provides or produces a tune that we can all do a cover version of.

Quote Wonkey Wabbit:

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What's happening on the copyright aspect of this? I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere (apologies if I've missed something but I did a search and couldn't find a mention of it). Does everyone have to sort it out for themselves or will SOS (if they get involved) arrange some group deal that covers all participants? Even if you are just going to make the winning entrants available for public download, then these will need to be catered for.

---

This is exactly the problem we are having to deal with at the moment and will need to wait it out on clarification.

It might be logistically better if a public domain recording is selected, one that is approved for public use with no restrictions, than picking such a high profile and nailed to the butt in restrictions track by the Beatles.

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Samplecraze
Stretch That Note

Might I suggest a chat with Edexcel? Their AS and A2 level Music Technology exams specifically include (and insist upon) a recording of a commercially available track - one can only conclude that they've got something sorted. Unfortunately, I don't know how or what - but whatever it is, it must either be a blanket license of some sort, or they've found the loophole.

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[url=http://www.facebook.com/pages/hifi-studios/117322741632389[/url]

Cue sound of enormous CLANGER being dropped.

you surely can't change the goalposts now - some of us have spent weeks on this and I'm seriously dying to hear other peoples versions of this great song!

Isn't it the case that if it's not for commercial gain then you dont have to pay a fee as long as you declare it to the relevant bodies?

cheers SSS

Hi, all!

I've read all the posts and, being dumbass, I don't understand what you have to do. Do you just submit a track and list all the instruments you used to make it with?

Are you allowed to use sampler programs like Reason to make your track with or does it have to be real instruments?

As far as storing the tracks - why not Rapidshare? They host files for free - just shove 'em up there as .rars and list the download addys. You can do the same thing with Megaupload, Boxfile does it but has a dead tight file size limit and there's one or two others.

Yours with respect

ulrichburke

Hokay, I understand what's going on now! So ignore my last post apart from the Rapidshare/Megaupload bit, they're good storage sites.

Do you ever do competitions for people who use samples because they can't afford to spend hundreds on real instruments and even more on learning to play them?

Yours hopefully

ulrichburke

Quote SunShineState:

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you surely can't change the goalposts now - some of us have spent weeks on this and I'm seriously dying to hear other peoples versions of this great song!

Isn't it the case that if it's not for commercial gain then you dont have to pay a fee as long as you declare it to the relevant bodies?

cheers SSS

---

hmmm .. I dont think so mate.

"Copy" right. Geddit ?

You may not have to pay a fee, depends on you negotiating skills, really (like they better be amazing, I'd have thought). I seriously doubt its a case of simply "declaring" anything.
(especially for an official compo' re-recording a Beatles track :-/)


Otherwise - whats to stop me doing a sh*thot remix of a major major tune from the past - & distributing for free (over the net say) securing 100,000 downloads and boosting my profile no end ?!

- maybe you'll be OK so long as no-one hears, but the judges ? -and maybe other competitors ?



Edited by blue manga (30/01/08 03:17 PM)

As I understand it, we would each own the copyright in our own physical recording and therefore be free to post it. The issue is the licensing of the cover of the Lennon/McCartney song which would be subject to the appropriate declaration and fee for PRS and possibly MCPS. This fee would be no more onerous for a L/M song than any other, but of course all this has to be completely above board and legit to be associated with a reputable mag like SoS - is anyone looking into what is required in terms of licensing, rather than just righting this off in a panic??

As a matter of interest mags like Guitarist regularly publish CDs with covers of well known songs to learn /play along to - so its obviously not an insurmountable problem - or is it??

Cheers

Quote SunShineState:

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As a matter of interest mags like Guitarist regularly publish CDs with covers of well known songs to learn /play along to - so its obviously not an insurmountable problem - or is it??

Cheers

---

I'm pretty sure its an issue with them, I remember reading in a certain guitar mag that a G'n'R song needed arranging with their lawyers before they could transcribe it

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Disclaimer: Advice is taken at your own risk.

Sorry, haven't checked in on this one recently...

Have we sorted out the rules yet?

My trusty old Samson S11's starting to droop.....

Just a heads up for the legal side of things. Soundclick.com even has a cover song genre now.. Surely there's some way around the legalities.

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MYSPACE | MY NEW BAND SPACE

if Soundclick.com has a covers section why dont we all just post our entries there? Maybe its mp3 only but i guess that would be better than nothing?

The soundclick website says

Licensing of digital cover songs is an evolving issue. So all guidelines below are based on our best understanding of the current copyright law and is subject to change. Please note that our 'music submission agreement' requires you to take care of all required copyrights clearance and payments.
Having said that, cover songs can be posted legally. To post cover songs online you must agree to pay statutory royalty rates to the publisher of the original song.

An exception to this rule are songs in the Public Domain which don't require any royalty payments.

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Madman_Greg

The copyright issue is a stickler, and a bit of a bug-a-boo, and I am not sure why I didn't think about that sooner.

Also, are there going to be any issues of U.K. copyright vs. International copyright? I have no idea really. Since it is a U.K.-based publication, would it need to be cleared in the U.K. only, or does it need clearance in any contributor's home country as well?

These types of things are well beyond my level of expertise, but I think it is not too difficult to get the mechanical copyrights to a song if you release it on an album. You just need to pay per copy sold, and in the U.S. that is through the Harry Fox Agency (HarryFox.com). I have no idea where to begin in England, or anywhere else in the world.

The Harry Fox Agency has "Come Together" as one of its registered songs (C56400), and has a license program where you pay a small fee (US$15), plus 9.1 cents per song for between 25 and 2,500 copies.

So for 50 users, the cost would be about US$20.55 (a mere pittance) *if* they would consider each entry as a "copy". I doubt that however, and I think each entry is a unique entity that would have to be licensed separately. This fee would grant a mechanical license, which is for when you are planning on selling a version of the song on a CD. I have no idea if that covers our little contest idea, or even if *anything* is required in our case. If *everybody* in the contest needs an individual mechanical license, the cost would be US$17.27 for *each* contestant (that is for the 25 unit minimum at 9.1 cents, plus the $15 fee).

Once again, this is for the US only as far as I can tell!

I have no idea if this is even the correct type of license that would be required in this situation!

As you can see, I am sooooo far from an expert here, and I am probably not the one to do the research, especially since I am U.S.-based, and the magazine is published in England.

Is there anyone that is UK-based that is willing to take this on as a project (the research, I mean)?

Please let us know!!!

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James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

I think I may have the answer.

I got this from the PRS website. These are the people that deal with major UK artists and bands and indie bands such as mine. Basically these people are the experts and know more than any of us.

Below is a piece of text from their introduction in copyright.

Fair Dealing
Fair Dealing
The fair dealing exceptions are fairly limited and exist for the purposes of:
•
Non-commercial research and private study
•
Criticism and review
•
Reporting current events
Fair dealing acts differ from other exceptions to copyright in that these involve an assessment as to whether the dealing is fair.


I have always been under the impression that if you are not using a cover song to gain money then you are not infringing any rights.

Wouldn;t this exercise be for "Non-commercial research and private study" None of us would actaully make any money out of it and as long as SOS don't print web links in the mag to any actual audio then their write up would be for "Criticism and review", which is teh whole point of SOS.. is it not?


Here's the link to the full artical and website:

web page

web page

I hope this helps to clear up this matter. If the contest is to continue, please could we have an extended closing date because this copyright issue has thrown things a bit.

Take it easy

Paul

Just to add to my last post, here is another statement from the same website
_________________________________________________________
What if you are using your own recording?

If you have made your own recording of an existing musical composition, better known as a 'cover version', you are the sound recording owner and will only need to obtain an MCPS licence for any physical products you produce.
__________________________________________________________

An mp3 being submited for review is not a physical product and if it not for sale then technically it is not a product.

While I'm here, how about submitting entires as 320kps mp3's?

I know someone will have a pop at me that it's not as good quality as a wav. but if everyone submits their work like that then does it really make a difference???

Thanks for that research Paulos! Hopefully somebody can look into it, and get us an official response.

As far as WAV vs. MP3: We have already crossed this bridge. Since this is a "quality" contest rather than a composition contest, musical quality is of the utmost importance, and therefore it would be preferable that no compression of the final product take place.

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James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

so is this going to happen now, will you and Zuk discuss the research with the mag and get approval? there seems to be lots of support for this and it will make a very interesting feature for the mag I think cheers

I emailed the people at the PRS / MCPS alliance on Monday outlining what we want to do and ask for clarification but have received no response so far.

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Madman_Greg

Quote Madman_Greg:

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I emailed the people at the PRS / MCPS alliance on Monday outlining what we want to do and ask for clarification but have received no response so far.

---

I am already dealing directly with MCPS re this matter.

Thnx for trying.

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Samplecraze
Stretch That Note

Just to update you all:

I have contacted MCPS/PRS on behalf of Sos and DH and am awaiting their response.

I must say that this will take time and could be fruitless as the Beatles catalogue and rights are fiercely protected.

However, I might be pleasantly surprised, but without iron clad approval at no cost to Sos I cannot allow the content to be used in any shape or form.

I suggest, as I have to DH, and as a contingency back up, that you all consider using public domain material that has no protection and with available rights.
I leave this in the capable hands of DH.

An example of this might be recordings of a song from a member here etc..

This contest will be backed by Sos with prizes awarded to the winner/s so it is imperative that Sos' public profile is protected with all integrity.

This began as a forum suggestion and Ian took it onto himself selflessly to help make it both enjoyable and a little more 'weighty'. So we need to take this into account when dealing with content used etc.

We (moderators) have also discussed this at length and will probably form a small panel to judge the contest.

In light of enhancing community spirit I suggest that you all dialogue with DH via PMs so that I can then deal with one person directly with any queries raised.

Thank you

Zukan
Sos moderator

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Samplecraze
Stretch That Note

Only prob I have with all that was that the contest was supposed to start in Jan and end at the end of Jan and I for one have already spent a lot of time finishing a recording of Come Together. Added to this this is a great song (and a great original recording) which everyone recognises, so it makes it much more meaningful judging peoples efforts against that - with all due respect to the members here I think recording an unknown song would greatly demean the competition, and if the original recording is not as good as Come Together (which is frankly doubtful to say the least) then there is no great benchmark to try to emulate!

Added to this the members song itself is subject to exactly the same copyright issues as a Beatles song!

We are not talking about piracy or sculduggery here but a bone fide licensed cover of a Beatles song - I'm sure this is not difficult or expensive for the mag to obtain cover for (and that's a challenge! ) as I've said above Guitarist mag regularly publishes a CD with covers of hit songs to play along to - surely SoS doesn't consider itself inferior to that publication!!

I produced a CD of well know high profile cover songs with my band a couple of years ago and getting the license agred with MCPS/PRS was straight forward and very cheap.

Come on guys - let's have no more talk about throwing the towell in and do what ever is necessary to make this great competition idea happen!! what do the rest of you entrants think??

As a back up track, could we not consider some old jazz standard that will be out of copyright now?

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Veni, Vidi, Aesculi
(I came, I saw, I conkered)

Jazz whats that??? If you choose an old Jazz song I think you would get a very different subset of entrants from the ones that were attracted to doing Come Together! See my point above I believe there is absolutely no reason to back track on the original idea!! cheers

Quote Dave B:

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As a back up track, could we not consider some old jazz standard that will be out of copyright now?

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I really like that idea!!!

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[url] http://colinjmorris.bandcamp.com/releases [/url]

Quote Tootsweet:

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Quote Dave B:

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As a back up track, could we not consider some old jazz standard that will be out of copyright now?

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I really like that idea!!!

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Why not? Your finished result doesn't have to be jazz, it could be of any genre. Come together, which I suspect those who've already completed, have probably put their own style and genre to the song. There have been many jazz and country songs that have been updated and recorded as rock or pop, for example.

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Birthday Song 4 U. Personalised Birthday Songs

I would humbly suggest that we give the due process a chance to work before we "throw in the towel" as SSS suggests.

I also like the idea of doing a song that is recognizable by all rather than a member's original song, but I think if we are backed into a legal corner, then we can step back and look at "Plan B" and see what other options are available.

Thanks to everyone for their hard work on this, and to those of you who are anxiously waiting to submit their masterpieces, thanks for being patient!

We will get there, somehow!!!

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James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

thats the spirit! I'm sure we can get there, the old jazz song can be the NEXT competition! cheers

(or what about blues???)

If we cannot get this sorted then something like a orginal 12 bar would be the obvious way to go (or something that is out of copyright blues wise).

I have not started yet so this delay is good for me. Had to order a guitar combo to comply with the miking requirement. Lets just say what should have arrived 2 weeks ago, has not...

I got a little marshall stack for christmas.

I think the drumkit for my birthday is a no go though

Quote Madman_Greg:

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If we cannot get this sorted then something like a orginal 12 bar would be the obvious way to go (or something that is out of copyright blues wise).

---

That is actually a pretty good idea... Some old blues standby that folks could have some fun putting their own spin on would be a cool idea... "Hoochie Kootchie Man" or something similar, for example, or even some old early rock I-IV-V song like "Maybelene".

I LIKE IT!!! Smart man you are Greg! This would give us the recognizability that we need, the ease of playing, and a chance to go deep into our skills to produce a very basic recording to convey our ideas.

If things fall through with the Beatles thing, I think Greg has something here...

What do you all think?

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James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

Yes, good idea.

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Birthday Song 4 U. Personalised Birthday Songs

sounds good!

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I'm a student. Don't listen...

Unfortuately you will find a lot of old blue songs have had their copyright renewed over the years.

for example

Hoochie Coochie music By willie dixon, Copyright 1967 (renewed bmi)

especially where the old blues tunes have become popular, its going to be difficult to find something that people know as its probably been renewed if it is well known.

hence my suggestion of an original blues track

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Madman_Greg

Quote Paulos13:

---

Just to add to my last post, here is another statement from the same website
_________________________________________________________
What if you are using your own recording?

If you have made your own recording of an existing musical composition, better known as a 'cover version', you are the sound recording owner and will only need to obtain an MCPS licence for any physical products you produce.
__________________________________________________________

An mp3 being submited for review is not a physical product and if it not for sale then technically it is not a product.

While I'm here, how about submitting entires as 320kps mp3's?

I know someone will have a pop at me that it's not as good quality as a wav. but if everyone submits their work like that then does it really make a difference???

---

if this copyright thing is such a problem and the competition is for technique rather than content why don't we just right our own songs based on a theme chosen by the organisers ie: blue cheese blues/ etc etc couple of verses chorus and a bit in the middle , got to be more fun t4tea

I've had a thought that may help, i'm not sure if it helps with tying into the mag atall.

But there a about brazillion cover versions on YouTube. I don't know if they are paying a blanket fee to the collections agencies or what? It's a pity our advisor on such matters isnt around.

But it would seen like a sinmple place to whack up a load of tunes. Even if they arent on a moving vid,it's not rocket science to slap your track on a pic and upload it, perhaps a single participant could open an account and then upload all the submissions...

Good fun too!

As a lot of people have already started or finished like...

Quote ==:

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It's a pity our advisor on such matters isnt around.

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- well u know where 2 find him !

Quote ==:

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But it would seen like a sinmple place to whack up a load of tunes. Even if they arent on a moving vid,it's not rocket science to slap your track on a pic and upload it, perhaps a single participant could open an account and then upload all the submissions...

Good fun too!

As a lot of people have already started or finished like...

---

I'm not in the compo but I might aswell say it before anyone else does - it's about recording quality and fidelity etc, not something thats easily judged via a compressed youtube stream. Other than that, nice idea.