Hello All Sounders!

I really have to choose quickly what is the best place for learning Sound Enineering.

I need great place where I can study good rock, alternative, academical classic, experimental music.
That you could better understand what I am - I'll give you the list of bands I like: Audioslave (Chris Kornel), Linkin Park, Puddle of Mudd, Coldplay, Mogwai, Sigur Ros, Muse... etc.
Well, in general I like Great Melodic Alternative Music with intersting FX's and with own great style!



I did some research and stopped on these variants:

1. http://www.mi.edu/Majors/Audio-Engineering/7.aspx
2. http://www.sae-la.com/courses.php?course=ATP
3. http://www.sae-atl.com/courses.htm
4. http://www.saeny.com/courses.htm

and may be this - http://www.recordwk.dircon.co.uk/ (but pictures from the site doesn't impress me at all - looks like it's somewhere in the dark and wet basement - ha-ha)


...but still don't know what is better...

I my opinion MI is the best place (because it's in one of the Music Centeres of the World - Hollywood), but on the other hand they don't have in program "Audio in Multimedia and Games" which SAE has.

How to be?

By the way, are those SAE sites have got almost the same program or not? And as I see they're costs are the same, isn't it?

May be someone already knows that places and could tell my what is the most interesting and best place for living, studying and for other things.

I think that New Yorke is really dirty (in all meanings) place and take it as the last variant. But may be I am wrong.


Id' like to have all the sound Engineering program in my hands. I mean the program should contain:
1. Studio Sound
2. Live Sound
3. Sound for Film and TV
4. Sampling
5. Studio creation
6. Music Business
and other stuff! I need the FULLEST PROGRAM!

May be some of you did courses (finished institute or college as Sound Engineer) less expensive but with the same program quality or even with better program - go on, tell it here!

So, if anybody know better places - please give me link or tell me! That would be halpfull for everybody!

P.S.: I AM IN A BIG HURRY, IN 1-2 DAYS I SHOULD ALREADY CHOOSE SOMETHING AND GO STRAIGHT AWAY(you understand that I also need visa and other papers - if you know what I need to get in - please tell me)! PLEASE BE QUICK, GUYS!

Thanks for Helpers Very Much!

This has got to be a wind up.

Quote reid:

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This has got to be a wind up.

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sadly it probably isnt!
The mad fool.... do some people not listen?

ah well..... i've some more souls to destroy....

I know the few immediate posters can't have seemed like much help. But i wouldnt advise doing any of those courses you mentioned. Better to create yourself your own job by getting out there and recording bands yourself. Use the money you earn (if any) to buy better gear.

Do this and read sound on sound, buy a subscription if you dont already have one. You will learn far more from this than most lecturers on a course can explain to you infront of a class of 20 or more.

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Squarehead Jam Jar Facebook Jam Jar

I went to school for business. I learned most everything taught by these music schools and courses myself, through books and trial and error and such. Someone I know who attended a school for music told me that I could teach at one of these places, and be the best teacher there

With the business background I am much better diversified to attack this ruthless industry and that puts me even further ahead. Also with the lack of formal training I feel I am not bound or constrained by any rules, and with music, IMHO, being art first, it is quite helpful in really fn ish up.

Go if you must, but I would listen to the others here and at least reconsider your decision. Think more of what happens when you finish? And where you will be and what options you will have. Then weigh everything out and figure out what is the best route.

James, but how will I record someone if I've got no experience at all ('ve got some my 3 albums made myself, but there are mistakes which I can't correct myself - but I hear them and have tried a lot of variants to erase them - doesn't wok)?

Experience is coming when you work with someone or listen to someone.

And does that courses really BAD?

I thought that 20 people (is there so many people in a group actually?!) is listening to the lecture and then going alone or with teacher to the studio and there work together one by one. Or am I wrong? What 20 people going together in one studio and study there at the same time - I think it's impossible!



Anyway, I need to choose something quickly! Where to Study?
PLEASE HELP ME, SOUND ENGINEER PEOPLE!

Any suggestions else?

P.S.: How do I buy (is there free one?) the subscription? And what is that for?


With BIG Thanks to Helpers!

A Non O' Miss, so you went to Business School, right?

That means that you have Music Business education, right? Or I didn't understood you.

I was thinking also about Music Business Institute - is that right?

And you have told that some of your friend went to Music school (college or whatever) - what school was it? And why didn't he (she) like it? Didi you ask? May be he (she) had bad connections with teacher or had wasted their time and just got dissapoited - that's it!(?)


I am an artist, but BOOKS ARE NOT TALKING! They only give you info! They can't teach your ears how to hear (if you understand what I mean). Because when you work with someone how's much better then you - you grow up! To work with, to study from someone who can hear all the mistakes - and not only hear them , but know how to correct! - that's what is the most important thing I think!


It's great conversation, guys!

Thanks a lot!


But who else have got any toughts?


With GREATEST THANKS to Helpers!

Don't know where you are based, but here in the UK many colleges and universities do music technology courses with a bit of business thrown in. Maybe there's something locally?

Quote PegStuchPrultGebdrangaFeng:

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P.S.: I AM IN A BIG HURRY, IN 1-2 DAYS I SHOULD ALREADY CHOOSE SOMETHING AND GO STRAIGHT AWAY(you understand that I also need visa and other papers - if you know what I need to get in - please tell me)! PLEASE BE QUICK, GUYS!

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If you don't have a US visa yet and you absolutely need to leave in 1-2 days, you can scratch LA, Atlanta and NY off your list.

ken

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I'm All Ears.

Quote:

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A Non O' Miss, so you went to Business School, right?

That means that you have Music Business education, right? Or I didn't understood you.

---

No I went to a general university and took a general business degree that covered strictly BUSINESS! Broad, but expansive.

I never, ever went to school for anything to do with music. I learned all the music stuff MYSELF, with the help of a friend or two and many many books as well as great trade journals such as SOS and extensive RESEARCH. Obviously music business is itself entirely different than general business, but so is any specific industry. With a broad knowledge of business it gives you flexibility, and if by chance I happen not to be in music the rest of my life then I have much more transparent skills, and transferable education.

I have always found that specific skills are better learned actually within the industry working, or/as well on your own, educating yourself by trial and error, practice, books etc. etc., especially in the case of music, IMHO.

Forget colleges. You need to start working as a tea boy in a major studio like Abbey Road and learn by working with experts who know what they are doing.

Unfortunately you're about 30 years too late. There are no jobs with the major studios, and the industry is dying on its feet.

Take up plumbing. It's fun, you meet people, you can work your own hours, and the pay is good.

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

All of the courses you have highlighted are going to cost a shed load of money, and to make a decision on that kind of spend in two days, without any research or further exploration on your part is sheer madness. Don't do it.

I would suggest that you need to investigate the whole music tech educuation market far more thoroughly. Understand what you are likely to get from these courses -- amd what you won't get -- and how that might then help you to move into employment (or whatever it is you plan to do next).

Different colleges have very different levels of equipment, very varied lecturing staff, and very variable numbers in lecture sessions and practical studio work. Some colleges restrict hands on studio time too.

The little experience I have of SAE across the world is that the courses vary in competence enormously. I have had to help some SAE graduates whose basic technical knowledge and practical skilss were shockingly poor. A few have been quite impressive -- but interestingly, those were all very keen outside the course, long time readers of SOS and other relevant mags, had their own gear, were always recording themselves and others to gain experience, etc. Very driven and self motivated with inquiring minds and persistance.

I wish you luck, but can't help thinking you could live to regret this hasty decision...

hugh

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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

what is being said here is right on.

I KNOW you don't want to hear it - but (and I'm sure you won't - thousands every year don't and nearly all regret it) you would do well to listen. Don't do one of these courses. There are something like 4000 "graduates" a year in the UK alone chasing zero jobs. It isn't a "job" industry. All the jobs are taken up with experienced souls - you cannot get into this business with a Music Tech course qualification, you won't even learn much about recording. It isn't rocket science. Read some books. Experiment. Ask questions. Spend 10 years learning and voila - you can record.

Don't waste your money or your time. There are no jobs in music, only freelance wok. And there isn't much of that. If you're an artist - then stop recording. Be an artist.

I think we're all a little bored of giving the same advice hundreds of times over to young misguided music enthusiasts - it is well meant !! So I can only say - DO NOT DO THIS. You WILL regret it.

There are a handful of us here who earn money full time recording. You won't find anyone who does this full time endorsing any courses. Some around here say that's because we are looking after our own interests... this is not true.

None of the serious earners in these forums have anything to fear from ANY music tech graduates - quite simply because this is an experience game along with "who do you know" . Music tech graduates have NO contacts and no experience. I employ people. None of them graduates in ANYTHING connected to music. Lawyers and electronics people !! Oh - and me - Maths!!

Quote narcoman:

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only freelance wok.

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You're likely to earn more money that way - every Chinese take-away and restaurant needs a freelance wok!!!

But no bugger needs a (ahem) 'qualified' music tech professional! What some DO want, however, is someone who can deliver on budget and on time ... not some kid with a certificate that says he can use ProTools ... they are ten (or more) a penny!

Seriously... take heed to narco's (and others' here) words. There are precious few 'jobs' to be had in this industry now, if any. You will - at best - be chasing one short-term thing after another ... assuming, that is, you have an address book full of contacts and you have experience and track record to back it up and are prepared to slum it and travel where the work is. Having a 'music tech degree' will not have you lounging around in a plush London or LA studio with your feet up on an SSL desk wondering which big name artist you will record that day. Those days are over - you will be mostly down the job-centre wondering which minimum wage job appeals the most!

And narco is also correct - the advice being given is not coming from a clique of old fogeys looking after their jobs/interests because even some of us old fogeys sometimes have trouble putting food on the table... decades of proven experience and STILL having trouble securing work sometimes!!

Furthermore, I am often getting called in to rescue jobs that were done on the cheap by young music tech (ahem) 'graduates' who simply couldn't do the job properly. The standard of the work they turned in on a professional budget is, quite frankly, shocking.

That said, I will, however, temper that by saying that I have also worked with some fabulous young talent ... but none of them went to any of these courses - they got a 'proper' degree and pursued the music thing in their spare time with something to fall back on should the need arise ... but they're making their way in the biz through experience and attitude and contacts and ability ... NOT a piece of paper (see my toilet roll spoof above!).

As Steve Hill says above - the industry is dying on its feet. What few 'pro' studios that still exist are closing (and what small, niche studios that eke out a living locally can't afford to employ anyone and are usually running at a loss), the record companies are in turmoil, major music shops are going into liquidation, as did even one of the UK's oldest and most reputable courses recently - and so on. Draw your own conclusions. It's grim out there.

But there ARE 'opportunities' out there for the enterprising and determined - there just aren't any 'jobs' to speak of. It's up to you to make your own opportunities. What's important to remember is that a course is not necessarily going to help. Sure - you may learn a few things but it just isn't going to set you up for a 'career', far from it.

In the meantime, while you are dutifully attending classes and burning your way through your money (or your parents' money), some kid is out there schlepping it doing live PA work, recording bands in his little home studio, being a runner for some post-pro facility, doing some sample editing grunt work, beta testing for a manufacturer or whatever - probably for peanuts ... or nothing. But he is gaining contacts and getting experience and building some kind of portfolio whilst also recording his own stuff and putting it about. THAT kid is further up the food chain and is going to stand a FAR better chance of getting work than any of the 4,000 or more (ahem) 'graduates' that have just finished their courses.

I think enough advice has been offered here. It's your call now.

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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Edited by hollowsun (28/08/08 01:29 AM)

So, as I understood to do this courses mean waste my time.
BUT!

Where do I take experiance from? I've got no friends who could help. And in exact mix at exact time not even any of the boook in this world will help me - it's impossible! By the way - 've tried to read books and still do, but when I turn to my mix's books doesn't help at all...


And WHAT YOUR SUGGESTIONS WILL BE, GUYS? What do I have to do? Where to go?

I don't think if I would go to the major studio and say : "Hello! I am a very nice guy! Could I please be here a small helper (and thinking inside - "may be to work after")?"
I think people will just lough at me!


And also you say that "

Quote:

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few 'pro' studios that still exist are closing...major music shops are going into liquidation,

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" - is that so? And which one? I didn't know about such a bad situation. Why is that happening? What? Too many Sound Engineers because of that courses above or what?

Also - How people that finish SAE or whatever do not know simple things (as you wrote)? What they do there then? I think people who teach then really experienced, aren't they? And if you would like to know something you will ask teacher and he will tell you what to do. Why SAE (and some other institutes) has got so BAD reputation?



WHAT DO I HAVE TO DO IN THIS SITUATION?
I UNDERSTAND THAT PAPER WILL NOT GIVED ME ANY POWER, BUT WHERE FROM SHOULD I TAKE EXPERIENCE THEN?
WHERE TO GO? WHAT TO DO?
WHO TO ASK?

P.S.:
Of course I am an artist at first. I am just finished musical college. But I want to do my onw music as I hear it (some of Sound Engineers have worked upon my mix's - and I didn't like their ears and work at all!)!
And that's why I need to learn Sound Engineering.



Dear Guys, Please give me some more advises!
I am Dying under the Pressure!


P.S.: My minds is getting clear. Does anyone have got a job (good one) in Musical industry? How? When? With help of who?

VERY HUGE THANKS TO YOU, GUYS-HELPERS! THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!

If you are an artist first, don't waste your life and money learning to be a sound engineer just because you don't like the work of one or two sound engineers.

Find better sound engineers. There are many to choose from.

I suggest, if you have some funds, you find a producer for your project who understands you work and what you are trying to achieve: it would be his job to turn your vision into a reality, and get the right team of people involved to make it happen.

You could also link to some of your tracks in the My Sound Files area of this site (under Resources) and a number of us would be happy to give some constructive comments.

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

If you want to hear what effects sound like then you could try looking at Dave Moulton's Golden Ears CD's but otherwise I would follow Steve's advice to post a few samples up and link to them in the sound files forum and find people to work with who understand your needs.

When I started recording bands I had only ever seen the inside of a recording studio by looking at pictures in magazines and I didn't know anyone else into recording. I just learned from my early mistakes and gradually got better. Having said that, I would still recommend spending a few days recording in a decent studio as I've always learned a great deal from watching other people work. I've also learned a great deal from watching other engineers use the gear I have to produce sounds that I had never thought of.

Cheers

James.

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JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

Dude,

I did a music tech course 10 years ago. It was one academic year long and I did it purely because I wanted to learn more about the process.
However, 10 years ago it was pretty expensive to get a home studio together and quite a few studios were still using tape so it all still had an aura of witchcraft.
Today it's a totally different bucket of hamsters but the college I attended is so big now it's advertising on MTV! And every year when the adverts come on I think to myself... you f**kers, taking advantage of kids like that. Also the course is hugely expensive now. When I did it it was a couple of hundred quid.
It's a racket my man. Keep away.
Stay on the forum. Ask stupid questions. Buy the mag. Buy a computer. Record your mates. Record some amature bands you like. Practice practice practice.
Look back at the ark of my posts since I joined the forum.
I knew a little coming in but I have learned more in the last 6 months that I did in the previous 3 years.
Do a business course instead.

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http://soundcloud.com/anthony-wall/sets/audio-reel
http://songsforvoiceandpiano.com/

Did you do only Business course or MUSICAL BUSINESS COURSE?

And where, when, how much money did you spent? And what is the best place fro studying MUSICAL BUSINESS COURSE?


Agian, PEOPLE!
I need the right place to study!
Exactly what I mean - in eaqch country different Sound Engineering "rules". Some countries good in Alternative (usa), Rock (uk), Pop (uk,usa), Electro (Amsterdam).

What is the best place (France, uk, usa, germany, africa, south place... ) for learning Academical Classik , Alternative, Rock, Experemental... Sound Engineering?

Is there any different types of mixeing you know (working now and doing best stuff)?
Is there Greates Sound Enginers you know?
Please tell me, if you can. Put links here, please.
I've tried to search some greatest (like Linkin Park) Sound Engineers, but I couldn't find it on net.

Do you have any thoughts?

If I would have ANYone to learn from - I would be already a Sound Enginer, BUT! I don't have any frinds in that industry.
And I'd like to learn everything from someone - doesn't matter: Institute, College, Guys in the studio or just in the old and wet, dirty basement - JUST PLEASE, TELL ME (if you know) - WHERE, WHEN, WITH WHO?



With Good Regards to Helping People!

The most highly regarded course in the UK.

Most graduates get jobs in the industry.

You need to be a (very) competent musician to get in. They have some open days coming up in September/October.

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

Quote Steve Hill:

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The most highly regarded course in the UK.

Most graduates get jobs in the industry.

You need to be a (very) competent musician to get in. They have some open days coming up in September/October.

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Lets increase that - those graduates get the ONLY jobs in the industry.

There isn't really a best or worst place (apart from the only proper academic institute is the one mentioned by Steve). This isnt something you can be taught completely. Obviously some eduction is necessary - but by and large - you've either got it or you haven't. You need to be a people person, you need to be a diplomat, you need to be a music person and have a technical mind. None of the science is difficult - but it can take years to master .....

I have no technical training in the music recording - but my science is probably stronger than most, from a previous and very different career.

My music background is completely self taught . I can read music well. I play, well I guess. I can repair most issued in the studio with a soldering iron and basic tools.

what I'm saying is - teach yourself whilst doing something you can fall back on in the very likely event that you will not be able to earn serious money from music or recording.

Quote Steve Hill:

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Most graduates get jobs in the industry.

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So that that isn't quoted out of context...

Most graduates OF THAT PARTICULAR course get jobs in the industry.

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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

1. The music business is not dying on its feet, the CD is! The CD is yesterday's product and the labels are yesterday's businesses. Somebody really aught to tell them!

2. The music business is expanding and is crying out for key skills. Studio engineer is not one of them!

3. Get a skill that we need. IT engineer. DVD authoring specialist (I could get you a job in that tomorrow, if you had the skills and background). Electrical and electronics engineer. Lighting programmer. Even something as mundane as site electrician. Then of course there are all the general qualifications that have major applications in the music business, like lawyer, accountant, security technician, structural engineer, shipping clerk, sales, etc.

4. Keep as far away from the likes of the SAE as possible!

Quote The Red Bladder:

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Then of course there are all the general qualifications that have major applications in the music business, like lawyer, accountant, security technician, structural engineer, shipping clerk, sales, etc.

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Data entry for an accountancy firm working for lawyers who represent security technicians and structural engineers based in a building situated near a commercial recording studio.



ken

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I'm All Ears.

Quote The Red Bladder:

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3. Get a skill that we need. IT engineer. DVD authoring specialist (I could get you a job in that tomorrow, if you had the skills and background). Electrical and electronics engineer. Lighting programmer. Even something as mundane as site electrician. Then of course there are all the general qualifications that have major applications in the music business, like lawyer, accountant, security technician, structural engineer, shipping clerk, sales, etc.

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I think you missed out a few - ego stroker to puffed up pop wannabe / hasbeen (delete as appropriate), hanger-on, poodle carrier, intimate hair waxer, secret MySpace hits manipulator, personal FaceBook page administrator and finally, the time honoured pharmaceutical location agent. No trip to a sound engineering school required for any of these jobs.

Quote reid:

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Quote The Red Bladder:

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3. Get a skill that we need. IT engineer. DVD authoring specialist (I could get you a job in that tomorrow, if you had the skills and background). Electrical and electronics engineer. Lighting programmer. Even something as mundane as site electrician. Then of course there are all the general qualifications that have major applications in the music business, like lawyer, accountant, security technician, structural engineer, shipping clerk, sales, etc.

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I think you missed out a few - ego stroker to puffed up pop wannabe / hasbeen (delete as appropriate), hanger-on, poodle carrier, intimate hair waxer, secret MySpace hits manipulator, personal FaceBook page administrator and finally, the time honoured pharmaceutical location agent. No trip to a sound engineering school required for any of these jobs.

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Oi! Don't go advertising my CV.... damn you.... I'm out of work now, and Fi-fi will have to go back to kennels.

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Ars longa, vita brevis, occasio praeceps, experimentum periculosum, iudicium difficile.

reply for PegStuchPrultGebdrangaFeng :

Buy a magazine like Sound On Sound, where a variety of course are listed. look at that, ring them up(all of them!) and go for a tour on every single one. If you can talk to the students currently attending the x-y-z courses. That will tell you a lot about the courses. Make up your own mind, its a huge decision. Do not let other people decide for you.
Hope that helps.
thom

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www.coorecords.com
www.last.fm/music/cloudcub

Quote:

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1. The music business is not dying on its feet, the CD is! The CD is yesterday's product and the labels are yesterday's businesses. Somebody really aught to tell them!

---

Normally I wouldn't interject in this sort of situation, especially regarding someone like Red Bladder but I have to disagree to an extent. It is the music that is killing the CD. Not all music, but the general Label approach to putting a CD together. The marketed acts with all their money into 3-4 singles and then a bunch of filler garbage. Of course they then set the way and everybody else follows. Artists in turn start panicking, dropping prices, and then start giving music away for free only perpetuating the cycle. If you are a consumer, why buy a $20 CD with 3 good songs and a bunch of crap and nothing good in the booklet when you can go buy the singles for $0.99?? If these dummies would put a good product together consistently these problems would not be so drastic.

Digital is huge and convenient and is here to stay and be the main medium, but the CD won't die. We need art, and CD's allow for a package of art. If done properly I think the CD can still flourish. Not to the extent when digital was not around, however music cannot continue down this path it is on forever....

Sorry for going way OT. To the OP, relax don't rush into anything. Time is a beautiful thing....

Quote hollowsun:

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Quote narcoman:

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only freelance wok.

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Those days are over - you will be mostly down the job-centre wondering which minimum wage job appeals the most!

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This is correct.

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Composer;
www.ogonline.org

Quote narcoman:

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only freelance wok.

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Now you see, I take issue with this. All my woks have been PAYE, and don't even start me on the contractural obligations for noodles.

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Ars longa, vita brevis, occasio praeceps, experimentum periculosum, iudicium difficile.

Quote A Non O' Miss:

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Quote:

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1. The music business is not dying on its feet, the CD is! The CD is yesterday's product and the labels are yesterday's businesses. Somebody really aught to tell them!

---

Normally I wouldn't interject in this sort of situation, especially regarding someone like Red Bladder but I have to disagree to an extent. It is the music that is killing the CD. Not all music, but the general Label approach to putting a CD together. The marketed acts with all their money into 3-4 singles and then a bunch of filler garbage. Of course they then set the way and everybody else follows. Artists in turn start panicking, dropping prices, and then start giving music away for free only perpetuating the cycle. If you are a consumer, why buy a $20 CD with 3 good songs and a bunch of crap and nothing good in the booklet when you can go buy the singles for $0.99?? If these dummies would put a good product together consistently these problems would not be so drastic.

Digital is huge and convenient and is here to stay and be the main medium, but the CD won't die. We need art, and CD's allow for a package of art. If done properly I think the CD can still flourish. Not to the extent when digital was not around, however music cannot continue down this path it is on forever....

Sorry for going way OT. To the OP, relax don't rush into anything. Time is a beautiful thing....

---

Now we are going completely OT, but this is where I see the market heading -

1. Big cost prestige product - Concert DVDs and Blue Ray.

These will be the CD replacements. They will last two or more hours and will sell for proper prices. The cost of origination will be high enough to chase away all the DIY merchants and maintain the traditional gateway function (hi-def camera rigs, Blue Ray authoring, additional footage and maybe a CD or USB-stick packaged in there for the car etc.)

2. Free music and cheaper product - USB sticks with MP3 files. These are now being sold at concerts, directly after the performance, with that performance loaded onto the stick at the point of sale.

3. On line - as it is now, for free and cheap stuff.

These trends are reality today.

But I agree that the labels and artists have squeezed all they can out of the CD. One hour of music just is not a product any more. Two or more hours of concert footage in hi-def is now what we should be concentrating on!

Quote redleicester:

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Quote narcoman:

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only freelance wok.

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Now you see, I take issue with this. All my woks have been PAYE, and don't even start me on the contractural obligations for noodles.

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I hear you print money on rice paper.

Quote narcoman:

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Quote redleicester:

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Quote narcoman:

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only freelance wok.

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Now you see, I take issue with this. All my woks have been PAYE, and don't even start me on the contractural obligations for noodles.

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I hear you print money on rice paper.

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Aye, guts of pure gold now.

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Ars longa, vita brevis, occasio praeceps, experimentum periculosum, iudicium difficile.

i studied music at national dipoloma while i done that i bought some recording stuff gradually and started recorded my band and my mates anyone i could to record i'd do it for free. to get the experience i volenterred at my youth centre and church doing sound and reading sos. When i finished my music my college course they offered me a place going into the second year of the hnd (2nd year of uni). Ye right i said no . I learnt twice as much as the tech students did and was getting paid at the same time. If you dont have the self motivation and determination to do it by yourself and start the career u want this minute maybe you should have a career rethink cause there nothing stopping you. Im not saying im acomplished but i think by what everyone has said here. Doing it youself is the way if not the only way. Plus save yourself some money anyhow good luck

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"what sounds best wins"

Quote The Red Bladder:

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1. Big cost prestige product - Concert DVDs and Blue Ray.

These will be the CD replacements. They will last two or more hours and will sell for proper prices. The cost of origination will be high enough to chase away all the DIY merchants and maintain the traditional gateway function (hi-def camera rigs, Blue Ray authoring, additional footage and maybe a CD or USB-stick packaged in there for the car etc.)

---

I bet you a score they won't. They're destined to the same fate as the Phillips DCC and Sony MD.

Quote:

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2. Free music and cheaper product - USB sticks with MP3 files. These are now being sold at concerts, directly after the performance, with that performance loaded onto the stick at the point of sale.

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MP3s I agree. USB sticks? Fad promotion. Certainly not a future format.

Quote:

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3. On line - as it is now, for free and cheap stuff.

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Absolutely agree. Cloud computing is changing the way we store/perceive data. Who is going to be lugging around USB sticks when they can access their entire music collection from anywhere in the [internet connected] world?

ken

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I'm All Ears.

lol
school CAN be good for some people. there are success stories. there are. it can open doors and jobs and recommendations, usually the best student or two get jobs by the tutor recommening them to employers.

but its too expensive and too much of a risk. cause you probably start on minumum wage, IF THAT. so will be in debt for YEARS.

if you are rich and have the money. do it. itll be fun and inspiring and good to learn. if you have ambition and drive, teach yourself. buy equipment and see if you have skills and some talent.

school cant teach you anything you cant teach yourself.

if i was rich i would go to every major recording school. full sail too. just for the hell of it.

few people on this thread KNOW. listen to them. they say dont do it. theyve convinced me too.

if i did go abroad to recording school, it would be for the visa, not the school!!! lol

after the course you will have a pile of notes and a cerrificate. that wont set you apart. from experienced no-qualification having people who know the subject.

in 20 years time, if you do succedd, would you rather have achieved it via school or via your own determintation and own drive ie without school. i know waht i would want .

i did a little free cheap music tech course. ive looked at course outlines and syllabus of top schools, same topics and same excersices. i did it for free, others pay $20,000-45,000 for it.

they sound good, look good. but when you really open your eyes, you realise.

i dunno, theres good and bad arguments for both sides....

course is good cause it has structure and focus and you meet people....if it seems worth it, do it. to me it does not

but there are studios who only consider employing graduates from recording school.

OK, GUYS!

I've been listening for a long time and now it's my turn to get involved into this interesting conversation!

1. I will study and take a course (because I've got no friends who could help and have no studio where I could watch)
2. What equipment should I buy to work with pleasure?
3. I DON'T NEED PAPERs - as the main reason (as some of you have said a lot of times already)! I NEED PEOPLE TO WORK WITH, TO STUDY WITH (from) AND WITH GOOD EQUIPMENT, OF COURSE!

Please remember 3d point of me and please (!) NEVER say again something like that "when you'll finish... then what?... papers will not give you anything..." and bla... bla...
I AM GOING TO DO IT NOT BECAUSE OF THE PAPER (but without it of course you will not have a job in SOME places)! I AM GOING TO LEARN, TO EXPLORE, TO SEE THE WORLD AND TO HAVE FUN!

And I think there's no difference at all WHERE you take your experiance - from a studio you went one day and watched, from a magazine you've read, from a record you've bought OR FROM A TEACHER YOU'D ASKED!
IT DOES NOT MATTER!

Well, I did it! Whooo... Tired...

I think my journey is mooving away. Now I have couple of months to get ready to go.


So we can talk about it more and clear everything out!


Thanks for Helping! You are Very Nice Guys!

Edited by PegStuchPrultGebdrangaFeng (30/08/08 05:06 AM)

Just as a matter of curiousity, where ARE you based?

I don`t know of many countries in the world where anyone wants to learn recording hands on can`t rustle up SOME other interested parties to interact with.

Sometimes the answer really does lie at your own back door.
Must be cheaper to move to a large city near you and contact like minded spirits whilst doing some sort of day job to pay the rent?

These courses may teach you a bit about music technology and recording technique, but the are never ever going to get you into the industry.
Only you will do that.

--------------------
Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

you don't really want to be a sound engineer,you just want someone to give your music a good mix. Much quicker solution would be to find a good engineer and pay them, it will take you years and years to get good enough to do a better job than the last lot.. or maybe your ears don't work so good and you'll never get there anyway.

MY EARS ARE FINE!
I DO COOL STUFF!
AND WILL DO MUCH BETTER!

Read my post before this - I asked NOT to talk like that.

And I asked concret questions.

I don't need someone to do this. I can do it much better then anyone (I know this) I just have to learn HOW - tha's it!

I'd like to be not a simple artist!

I think that great artist should know not only how to play and where to stop, but to learn music from the inside from different sides!

Anyway, I don't think that you'll understand me. I saw enough people thinking like this: "...if you are an artist - then JUST play!... if you are a sound engineer - go to the studio and work with stuff, read math book, physics and other stuff, record, record, record!..." - IT'S NOT THE WAY I THINK.

Could some one answer to my last post questions?

Please do. If you can.

Quote PegStuchPrultGebdrangaFeng:

---

Read my post before this - I asked NOT to talk like that.

---

You can ask, but as long as people stay within the rules we support free speech, and they can say whatever they please.

You don't have to like it. You are free to ignore it. But that's the way we are.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...

NO! YOU CANNOT.

It's NOT YOUR HOME!

It's forum based on RULES!
Every fromus have got rules. And there is one great rule - to ask concret questions and to give concret answers. If you doing a lot of phylosophy - internet terrytory get into one big rubbish bin (and it's going to be like that - a lot of words and addvertisements thrown on every forum) - and in the end it's find to choose really IMPORTANT info (actually this was the internet created for - getting needable information).

And if someone ask you NOT to do something - it's always better not to do istead of arguements.

I ask concret question - if you have something to answer - please do as I asked. If you don't - you could write a book with your thoughts and sale it (buy not on forum).

I think I was clear. And you understand. I DO NOT want to offend you - I am just being bored of too many posts which are saying the same (and there is no point to do that - if you undeerstand what I mean) and which doesn't answer to the questions people asked.

Only one small example - if you go to any program or music forum you'll see a lot of people giving comments or answers like that:
Example Question: "Bags and problems with this program - you comments..."
"Oh, that's great!"
next post:
"Yes, that's really great!"
next post:
"Guys, it's truely great!"

- do you think someone wants to read their stupid THE SAME answers and NO COMMENTS in general? Think you would not want.


Anyway, Thanks for your thoughts.

errr.... if you take not of the little yellow flag with an M in it next to Steve Hill's name, you'll find that he's part of the management team, and that in effect it IS "his home"

and your interpretation of the existence of rules is a bit shakey.

if i were you i'd ask each of my questions in a separate thread... because the answers are likely to be more useful if the subject matter is defined clearly...

in simple terms.


Buy a computer. ( Say a Mac Book pro)

Buy a decent audio interface (Prism Orpheus perhaps)

some good monitors (K&H O300?)

buy some good micropohones, (Schoeps, Brauner, Neumann, DPA.. )

and stands, cables, headphones, all sorts of adaptors, and so on ...



and then sit around wondering why you're not the best in the world and no one wants to work with you...

OR



get out your phone book, and look up recording studios., broadcast facilities, radio stations, and so on until you DO find somewhere in your region that you can go and ask questions....

i might add that i suspect billy goat gruff may be along shortly.

Quote idris y draig:

---

i might add that i suspect billy goat gruff may be along shortly.

---

Will that be the official goat or the anonymous one?

Quote PegStuchPrultGebdrangaFeng:

---

I ask concret question - if you have something to answer - please do as I asked. If you don't - you could write a book with your thoughts and sale it (buy not on forum).

---

well you asked the best place to study sound engineering, and those in the know are telling you the best place would be in a studio or in your own home.

Quote PegStuchPrultGebdrangaFeng:

---

NO! YOU CANNOT.

It's NOT YOUR HOME!

It's forum based on RULES!
Every fromus have got rules. And there is one great rule - to ask concret questions and to give concret answers. If you doing a lot of phylosophy - internet terrytory get into one big rubbish bin (and it's going to be like that - a lot of words and addvertisements thrown on every forum) - and in the end it's find to choose really IMPORTANT info (actually this was the internet created for - getting needable information).

And if someone ask you NOT to do something - it's always better not to do istead of arguements.

I ask concret question - if you have something to answer - please do as I asked. If you don't - you could write a book with your thoughts and sale it (buy not on forum).

I think I was clear. And you understand. I DO NOT want to offend you - I am just being bored of too many posts which are saying the same (and there is no point to do that - if you undeerstand what I mean) and which doesn't answer to the questions people asked.

Only one small example - if you go to any program or music forum you'll see a lot of people giving comments or answers like that:
Example Question: "Bags and problems with this program - you comments..."
"Oh, that's great!"
next post:
"Yes, that's really great!"
next post:
"Guys, it's truely great!"

- do you think someone wants to read their stupid THE SAME answers and NO COMMENTS in general? Think you would not want.


Anyway, Thanks for your thoughts.

---

The problem is, bro', that none of us with experience and who earn in the business can - with clear conscience - recommend ANY music tech college. I can't tell you to go to ANY music tech course because it's wasting your time. I would not give you a job based on what course you did. They are a waste of time.

"but i might not want a job - i wanna do it for fun" - you might say. In that case I have no interest in helping, apart from recording based questions. You're essentially asking "which bin shall I throw my money in?" - I want no part of that. If you are asking because you are looking for a career in music, then as an employer and responsible human being - it is my duty to tell you and others the cold hard truth. You would be unwise to listen to ANY music tech course - you SHOULD seek out the advise of those who employ. Well - I'm one of them. I say - don't do it. You'll not find anyone who earns recommending any course. At all. NOT the same in other industries. If it's for a hobby - what the [ ****** ] do you need a course for? If it's for a career - a course won't teach you what you need (apart from one or two science based ones - LIPA for example, but if you don't have good maths and musical training you won't get in).

So the problem is not in the answers, but rather you don't want to listen. IF you don't want advise - don't ask the question. You can trick fools into answering "which do you want - apples or oranges?". You are looking for a blind answer. How about the logical and sensible answer? - none of them.

Quote PegStuchPrultGebdrangaFeng:

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IT'S NOT THE WAY I THINK.

---

... then you will NEVER work in this industry - as an artist (earning money or as a recordist. Certainly not as both.

As it seems it's for fun - none of the places you are thinking of (ie NOT LIPA cuz its for industry types not for fun) - none of them deserve your money.

Quote PegStuchPrultGebdrangaFeng:

---

It's forum based on RULES!

---

Yes. I helped write them.

And I have explained them to you.

If you don't like our rules, feel free to find another forum more to your liking, or set up one of your own.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...

in all fairness.... The Tonmeister course has a very good reputation , and almost all the graduates i've ever met from that course are working in the industry and earning sensible money.... those that aren't , have chosen other career paths for themselves. it's FAR from useless......

if you want to be an engineer.... it's the only really top notch, thoroughly reputable, honest and worthwhile course out there in the uk. (assuming you don't want to study electronics engineering instead.... )

mind you the entrance requirements and standard of successful candidates pretty much preclude the OP making it on to the course..... or indeed 98% of all interested parties....

of the commercial "pay for the course like buying a product" types , i'd not recommend any as a career move, BUT if you insist on throwing money away, and trying the college route, for your own benefit, then be my guest, they're all pretty much the same really.... SAE might be the most useful, as they have facilities all over the world... so you may actually be able to study somewhere relatively close to home.


this is NOT a recommendation, merely an observation.

--------------------
if you don't know who i am, i aint gonna tell you.

The Tonmeister course is well respected IF you want to be an engineer. Unfortunately the common conception is that Music Technology is a mickey mouse degree. Hilarious I'm sure.

It all depends on where you get your degree from and where you want to go. 99% of employers recording studios in the UK know absolutely nothing about the degrees offered by Universities and who teaches them (not that I'd ever try to get an engineering job the way that the industry is now). Think very carefully where you apply to before applying and, of course, as has already been pointed out, consider taking up plumbing.

Quote monosyllabic:

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99% of employers recording studios in the UK know absolutely nothing about the degrees offered by Universities and who teaches them

---

Probably true -- although bodies like the APRS are working to address that by building two-way communication paths. But what they do know is that so often, when they do interview people from some/many/most (delete as you feel applicable) MT courses the candidates don't know the stuff they expect them to know, and/or don't have the right approach or attitude to fit in.

Quote:

---

Think very carefully where you apply to before applying and, of course, as has already been pointed out, consider taking up plumbing.

---

Both very good and sensible pieces of advice!

hugh

--------------------
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

I live in South Africa, so this may be less applicable in your situation, but here's my experience.

I love music. I started volunteering as a sound engineer at my local church when I was 13. I did sound at local gigs for a few years, mostly carrying speakers. Eventually they let me touch the sound desk, but it took a while before I could actually mix a band and make them sound like music. When I got out of school I studied Information Systems Engineering, and spent my free time doing sound at gigs and the like. I studied ISE because I was pretty good at programming at school, and the sound engineering courses at the local college were balls. When I finished my tine at college, I went to a studio in my area. I had met the engineer a few times, and I asked him if I could work for him for free. From September 2007 until Feb this year I spent every day making coffee and picking up cables, earning nothing. Literally nothing. In March he started paying me a very small commission on work we did, and let me operate the computer. Since then I've grown in leaps and bounds, and now I am bringing in bands, recording them, producing them, mixing them and even messing with some mastering (Although I usually send the stuff away to be mastered, because I don't have the necessary experience to do a good enough job).

I love this job and would not trade it for anything. While I am still not earning much cash, I love it. In a few years time, I want to have enough to get my own studio going, but at the moment I need to learn, so I'm sticking here.

As for what you should get, a pc/mac, monitors, sound card, and some decent software. That's what I've done. I don't even bother recording or anything at home. The studio has all the mics, a great desk, and other stuff that I just can't afford at the moment. But I mess around with mixes at home.

Something to consider.

--------------------
Richard
I'm a gear addict...

Quote PegStuchPrultGebdrangaFeng:

---

I don't need someone to do this. I can do it much better then anyone (I know this) I just have to learn HOW - tha's it!

I'd like to be not a simple artist!

I think that great artist should know not only how to play and where to stop, but to learn music from the inside from different sides!

---

I'm an artist. I write music and i'm in bands. I started playing drums years before I got into recording and sound tech. I now record my own bands and other peoples bands with equipment i've gradually learned about by reading on the internet and forums such as this one. I've never attended a music college. I've never been taught how to use equipment in person by someone else. I'm pleased to say i'm totally self taught and that i'm happy with the results I get from my recordings as are other people who i've recorded. If I was running to get a job in a studio i'd have the same chance as somebody else who'd been to a college - pretty much no chance - but at least i've spent the last few years making connections with bands in the area so I can get some work every now and again and have heaps of my own equipment rather than spending thousands on an education that leaves me with nothing at the end of it.

That said, taking a degree is a lot of fun and I believe is a good thing for people in general to take, I take a film production and animation degree and aside from what i've learned in that, its a great social experience and helps one have a good intermediate stage in between living at home and the big bad real world.

So sure, take a degree, enjoy it and learn some from it, but don't expect it to guarantee you a career, or infact really any more skills than if you'd have stayed at home and taught yourself from the ground up for 3 years.

I can strongly recommend The Recording Workshop. I used to study there and still think that choosing it was one of the best decisions of my life.
I always had enough time to work on my projects, lots of experience in working with sound in any form. There is only few people in one group which means - you can touch everything, you can press the buttons, move the faders do anything you like, because there's NO other 20 people waiting to try it out.
i've done everything i like starting from just using sofware to tape multitrack recording and binaural recording. Very important thing - the tutor is really helpful and very experienced person - which means you deal with someone who knows what he says and what he's doing.
It is also very affordable - comparing to SAE which is ridiculously expensive. Few more lights and a coffee table in a corner wouldn't make a difference, if you know what i mean. it is all about experience, relaxed atmosphere and studio availability and of course, most of all - YOU. If you don't really want it no matter what school - you won't learn a thing, but if you really want to do it, then again - why spend 5 times as much..? It is true - no one gives a ***** what kind of diploma or degree you've got - but to be honest - this place helped me an awful lot - i knew nothing couple of years ago and now i can do pretty much anything i want or need... it is sort of showing you how to do things in general but still you have to decide by yourself what sort of stuff you like - music is an art and no rules apply to it. it is like showing you how to use pencils and piece of paper, but you have to decide which colours to use.

it is really hard to say, what do you expect exactly? if you have any questions regarding my post or school from the point of view of a student you can contact me
regards,
.ygg

Edited by se.ygg (03/09/08 02:26 PM)

Well, I'm at the School of Sound Recording. The last 6 months have gone incredibly fast and there's been a lot of stuff to learn and take in (since I started with a vague knowledge of a few things after dropping out of a horrendous "music tech" course), but I'm doing well. It's expensive though, however they do teach you with a view to get straight out there in the industry while having made contacts along the way.

Quote Boneyard:

---

Well, I'm at the School of Sound Recording. The last 6 months have gone incredibly fast and there's been a lot of stuff to learn and take in (since I started with a vague knowledge of a few things after dropping out of a horrendous "music tech" course), but I'm doing well. It's expensive though, however they do teach you with a view to get straight out there in the industry while having made contacts along the way.

---

You see, this is the sort of post I find a little unsettling. If, as you say, you started out knowing little or nothing & have only your 6 month`s worth of expensive course to base your opinions on, how do you KNOW you are 1) doing well and 2)going to be able to get straight out there in the industry and 3)Know that the contacts you have made are likely to lead to employment?

I really really hope you HAVE found the Holy Grail and end up riding confidently off into the sunset that is Pro Audio Employment, but I am somewhat nervous on your behalf.
Still,best of luck....

--------------------
Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

---

Quote monosyllabic:

---

99% of employers recording studios in the UK know absolutely nothing about the degrees offered by Universities and who teaches them

---

Probably true -- although bodies like the APRS are working to address that by building two-way communication paths. But what they do know is that so often, when they do interview people from some/many/most (delete as you feel applicable) MT courses the candidates don't know the stuff they expect them to know, and/or don't have the right approach or attitude to fit in.

Quote:

---

Think very carefully where you apply to before applying and, of course, as has already been pointed out, consider taking up plumbing.

---

Both very good and sensible pieces of advice!

---

1. The APRS is just making the situation worse by burying its head in the sand and hoping that somehow this problem (along with all the other problems that this industry is subject to) will go away.

2. The APRS has made the situation worse by supporting some Mickey Mouse ONC recording qualification which is not even up to the low standards of the private schools.

3. We have new skills that are required. I have to do things like IT networking, A for V, and DVD authoring that are well outside the traditional audio field. We need the German apprenticeship scheme for media production assistant and we need it urgently.

4. Surrey Tonmeister (but not their other courses) graduates are the only university leavers that I get to work with that are capable of walking into a studio and working without having someone hold their hands.

5. Other than the Tonmeister, the best group that are capable of working at the rock face are the self-taught. Some of the best, in fact the very best, have been self-taught.

6. The quality of graduates from universities and private colleges other than the Tonmeister are so far below requirements that working with them is just a pain. Everything you show them or ask them to do is completely new to them. Soldering plugs? Na, we never did that. Operate a large analogue desk - no, we never got to do that. Mic up a piano, trouble shoot some equipment, author a DVD, use a DAW other than PT, install software, set up a network, read the EDL on a score, prepare a series of takes for a producer to review for an EDL, edit said EDL. All things they cannot do.

7. On paper, the UK produces 2,000+ sound recording graduates p.a. In reality, the UK produces 30 or so. This sad state of affairs also applies to similar fields, media studies in particular. When these creatures were first released onto an unsuspecting me, I thought they would be able to write a news article, research a subject, edit video, work with different types of computers, and so on. None of the above was true and we had to fire several and retrain the rest. For those involved, it was a painful and sometimes heartbreaking process.

8. If candidates only knew what is on offer in fields other than music recording, they would not be so gung-ho about signing on the dotted line for three years of mediocre education.

OK, I own and run a recording studio, but I studied economics and run a company that does other things. Here is a list of the tasks I shall have to deal with today -

- organise the renovation of a barn in Germany.

- pick the bid for outdoor landscaping to be completed on a rented property.

- advise a company that is close to collapse.

- proof-read a corporate newsletter.

- review plans for a new building and draft a brief for the architect.

I am sure that the day will bring other tasks and I shall be sending the next three days recording an up-and-coming band, as our regular engineer is on the road. The sad fact is, although I keep getting all these cv's, none of them can record a band with speed and competence.

The son of a friend has just landed a job as management trainee with a large European retailer.

"Oh God! How dreadfully boring!" I hear half of you cry.

Well, whilst the very, very few of you who are actually able to get some sort of internship or even a paying job, staring into a computer screen and bar-beat editing, this young man (aged 24) will travel all around the country and also visit factories and shops across Europe and the US and Australia. He will learn how to negotiate purchasing agreements running into millions and millions.

After three years, he will become an area manager and earn nearly £60,000 p.a. plus large company car. He will be 27 or 28 and be responsible for an entire area of shops and distribution centres and be in charge of hundreds of employees.

By the time he is in his mid-thirties, he expects to have a six-figure salary. If he makes it to the top and become UK manager, he can expect a salary well into seven figures.

He will travel to China, Russia, Japan, you name it and these people have suppliers there and he will visit them.

What will you be doing?

I find this thread hugely depressing. My son's mad on music, has been in a band since the age of 11, currently Grade 7 guitar and has a studio for recording at home (yeh spoilt I know!). He's got 11 gcses, all at A/A*, and is doing 5 A levels including maths, physics and music tech, and has recorded at Abbey Road Studios. He's looking at applying for the Tonmeister course next year, and reading this makes me think it would be a waste. But it's all he wants to do. I reckon he'd forego University to be a tea-boy in some studio for a couple of years just to get his foot in the door but it seems to be just a matter of luck, or who you know in the business.

Quote *Ade*:

---

He's looking at applying for the Tonmeister course next year, and reading this makes me think it would be a waste.

---

Not at all.

Read through this thread again (or find other similar threads - they crop with alarming regularity!) and you'll find the Tonmeister comes highly recommended - it's the 'cowboy' courses that we old farts here are uncomfortable with for any number of reasons.

The 'problem' with the Tonmeister course is that they have very high entrance expectations such as high grades (7 or 8) in a musical instrument plus good 'A' level results in other disciplines such as maths and physics that few kids can meet. Sounds like your lad is on the road to maybe satisfying those requirements.

The other thing about Tonmeister compared with the other courses is that whilst 'the other courses' imply that graduates will walk into a job (when they won't), my understanding is that Tonmeister grads invariably DO.

As for your lad being spoilt...? Nah - I've probably spent more on my daughter's piano, violin and viola lessons and instruments - and she's just 11 (and doing grade 7 in all three)!! The piano alone could buy me three Mac G5s and her violin cost more than my current synth workstation - just a new, decent bow can cost more than (say) a copy of Logic or Kontakt!! Spoilt or investing in their future? You decide.

If your lad has his eyes set on the Tonmeister, look into it and don't dismiss it.

Good luck!

--------------------
Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Edited by hollowsun (09/09/08 09:06 PM)

Ditto everything he just said.

Tonmeister is the one and only thoroughly, industry wide, respected course ..


a graduate of it DOES have their foot in the door of the industry, and will almost always at least make the interview stage....

it's still very much a question of the demonstrably hard working and dedicated people getting the job , but you pretty much HAVE to be that to get a decent result on that course.. it is not for the lazy or uncommitted.



so encourage him, and make sure he works his arse off academically... AND does extra-curricular work , gofer , tea boy, roadie, assistant whatever.... in the relevant fields...

Quote *Ade*:

---

But it's all he wants to do.

---

That's the thing about all this education.
It's very hard to persuade someone to do a degree in 'Job I Don't Want To Do'.

I do dry hires of the studio to visiting engineers/producers (as I'm sure Mr Bladder does).

With the Tonmeister guys you tell them where to find tea and coffee and put your feet up knowing that, unless a major piece of gear blows up, they are not going to trouble you again: this in a strange studio they may be using for the first time.

With anyone else*, you're getting asked to help out every ten minutes and you end up thinking you might as well have charged for your own services for the day anyway, because that's what's happening.

The acid test is can you leave with a degree that allows you to walk into a strange studio and unassisted run a session with a paying client, confidently? As I say, I only know one degree course doing this.

* Not quite anyone else - I have a few old school clients who never touched the sides of any uni course too.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


Edited by Steve Hill (09/09/08 10:01 PM)

The economy is about to sink so don't waste your money on music courses, invest it in land and a cow!

Quote PegStuchPrultGebdrangaFeng:

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- do you think someone wants to read their stupid THE SAME answers and NO COMMENTS in general? Think you would not want.

---

why do you type like a retard?

Listen to this guys saying its a bad idea, they are right!!

Ive been on these courses and while at first it was great (I was a complete beginner)
It really didnt take long before i'd gone far ahead of what they were teaching and the other students.
Mainly because i was reading up in my spare time, websites like this and many others, magazines, books and getting stuck in working at home will teach you much more, faster!

The first course was good to be fair, a 10 month fast track National Certificate which was free. I started completely clueless and came away with a great understanding, very capable of getting on with my own thing.

The BIG mistake i made was deciding to follow up with a HND. This brought about student loans, tuition fees, much more written work and useless course filler lectures. One out of maybe 6 lecturers actually worked in the music industry and the rest were academic types or not much older than me, having just done a music tech degree and landed a job teaching.
I didnt stick at it and neither did about 80% of the others on the course. It really was a joke

So my advice is sure go for the free or cheap starter courses to get you going but avoid higher education because it has to include much more academic work which is barely relevant and of course leaves you in debt!!

Edited by Valvesound (17/09/08 12:04 PM)

Quote Gelled_Fringe:

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Quote PegStuchPrultGebdrangaFeng:

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- do you think someone wants to read their stupid THE SAME answers and NO COMMENTS in general? Think you would not want.

---

why do you type like a retard?

---

Have you ever considered he might be foreign?

What a stupid, crass and moronic thing to say. Nice one.

--------------------
www.mikeandersonmusic.co.uk

Quote thejazzassassin:

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Have you ever considered he might be foreign?

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if you mean by 'foreign' (very crass term btw) that english may not be his first language, then i would say that was fairly obvious

Quote thejazzassassin:

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What a stupid, crass and moronic thing to say. Nice one.

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did you actually read any of his posts, or are you just jumping in because you enjoy the kneejerk thrill of being holier-than-thou?

Quote Steve Hill:

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I do dry hires of the studio to visiting engineers/producers (as I'm sure Mr Bladder does).

With the Tonmeister guys you tell them where to find tea and coffee and put your feet up knowing that, unless a major piece of gear blows up, they are not going to trouble you again: this in a strange studio they may be using for the first time.

With anyone else*, you're getting asked to help out every ten minutes and you end up thinking you might as well have charged for your own services for the day anyway, because that's what's happening.

The acid test is can you leave with a degree that allows you to walk into a strange studio and unassisted run a session with a paying client, confidently? As I say, I only know one degree course doing this.

* Not quite anyone else - I have a few old school clients who never touched the sides of any uni course too.

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I agree and disagree with a lot of the remarks to comments, however, I do find it a little irritating that people assume those who are on (and have taken) degrees in music tech are generally assumed to be idiots in the audio field.

I know of at least 2 other people (myself not included) who could walk into a studio and be fine with anything that's thrown at them. Most of this hasn't been shown at uni, but the resources given to us to learn it from. Time with the lecturers has been there to ask them the more "complicated" questions and reasoning behind things - but a lot of the graduates don't like the idea of physics or maths, they just see music.

I personally have had to operate in different studios with no-one there to assist, and gotten through it with an initial minor problem (strange routing).

So, I'm not disagreeing with the sentiments - But I do think that in my experience a lot of students are useless that have a Music Tech degree; but not all of us are stupid.

Granted those who are, and I would consider, more competent have learnt a lot at home - but that's simply due to the desire to learn outwith the university that has given them the competency within class.


edit;

all of my lecturers over the last two years have been worked, or are still, within the "industry". These are artists, engineers (live and studio) as well as people with extensive business knowledge.

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Mac user; Logic and ProTools systems.

Edited by -Noodles- (17/09/08 05:30 PM)

Some other things you should be contemplating..

Do you have this money saved, are you how do we say, rich??

If not would you be borrowing the money for school?? How much would the total lend be?? What is the interest rate of that lent money??

What happens when you are finished your program?? If you are going the debt route to fund school you may want to strongly consider what you will owe monthly, the sort of income you will need to bring in to cover those debts and basic living. Inflation continues while global economies struggle. Living expenses are on the rise. If you want to do what you want to do, the key is having NO DEBT.

If you are a rich kid with no worries of money ever, than go ahead and fly at it. Some people just are not able to motivate themselves to learn it themselves. Some people are the kind that think it better to pay someone else to teach them, either because they simply are not smart enough or are lazy. If you fall into either of these categories, well, music probably isn't what you really want to or should be doing then.

I have found that when a person finds their true calling in life, they cannot be stopped from doing it themselves. Greatness is achieved only by those who take command of themselves. School may help in some aspects but if you are truly great, like you seem to think you are, then later you will look back and regret your decision to go to school.

Lennon went to school for a bit, but dropped out cause he couldn't handle it and thought it was a waste. He then picked up the music and forged ahead on his own..Don't remember him saying anything about how that schoolings teachings really helped him...

5 years from now, would you rather have 4 years of education or the equivalent in gear?? Or no debt and some gear or loads of debt for something you can do yourself most times better, and zero gear??

Knowing what I know now, I would have forgone school, saved my money, acquired no debt, and invested my money directly in my career. I would maybe not have those life experiences, but I would have more gear and be further ahead in my career and the balance sheet would be much stronger. Basically you pay for life experience and that is it.

Either way, like the info you are getting or not, keep an open mind, keep your eyes open and try and learn at all times. Try not to let your emotions control you. Emotion clouds decision making. Keep a clear head, we all make mistakes, the problem isn't the mistakes, it is the hesitation in making them and the inability to learn anything from them. You have people here who have made mistakes, have seen mistakes made, and are trying to pass those learnings on to you. Sometimes though you just need to make them yourself

Good Luck!

May i recommend Audio Engineering under Prof Malcolm J Omar Hawksford at Essex University.

Quote -Noodles-:

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I agree and disagree with a lot of the remarks to comments, however, I do find it a little irritating that people assume those who are on (and have taken) degrees in music tech are generally assumed to be idiots in the audio field.

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Because (I'm sorry to say) that some of us who are or have been in a hiring and firing situation have found them to be so. Jeeez... some of them can't even put together a half decent CV or write an intelligible accompanying letter/email let alone manage a recording session on their own with paying clients. Seriously! If I got paid for every email I receive that goes along these lines, I'd be a rich man.....

"hi. im a producr and engineer whos just finished a music tech course at XYZ im writing to you to ask if you have any jobs at yr studio, ican use protools and have expiriance in sample editing in fruity loops.i have attached my cv [in an unknown format]. pls let me now. thanks man."

Ok... maybe I am exaggerating a tad to make the point but you get the gist - such emails are not uncommon here (some are WORSE!!!). Why the hell such a person would think I'd risk many thousands of £££ to employ them just beggar's belief!

Of course, it could be argued that I am just an old fart being elitist (and maybe that's true) but if the guy can't even write a decent letter/email, how could I ever think he could be trusted to turn in a good job. Ok ... I may be dismissing a genius out of hand on the basis of his spelling and grammar and his 'txtspk' but I can't afford to take that chance.

I know two major manufacturers who not so long ago advertised for in-house recording engineers and sound designers. They spent a lot of time and money and resources interviewing a LOT of music tech course 'graduates' with delusions of adequacy for the positions ... and found no-one capable of the jobs in question. Instead, they use this 50-year-old unqualified duffer!! Another major sound library developer used a music tech grad bullshitter for a sample editing/looping project a while back ... it was a total disaster that sent them over budget and lost their development deadlines and they got me in to bail them out and do the job properly. Other old farts here probably have similar tales to tell.

You sound competent, Noodles, and I wish you every success, I really do. I am also vaguely encouraged that you know two others who could be trusted with a session in an unknown studio. Good luck to them too - with the right attitude and work ethic, the three of you stand a chance of making a career in this business.

In the meantime, us old duffers and others will receive job application emails and letters from the other 3,997 who graduated in the UK alone this year!!!

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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Quote Steve Hill:

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I do dry hires of the studio to visiting engineers/producers (as I'm sure Mr Bladder does).

With the Tonmeister guys you tell them where to find tea and coffee and put your feet up knowing that, unless a major piece of gear blows up, they are not going to trouble you again: this in a strange studio they may be using for the first time.

With anyone else*, you're getting asked to help out every ten minutes and you end up thinking you might as well have charged for your own services for the day anyway, because that's what's happening.

The acid test is can you leave with a degree that allows you to walk into a strange studio and unassisted run a session with a paying client, confidently? As I say, I only know one degree course doing this.

* Not quite anyone else - I have a few old school clients who never touched the sides of any uni course too.

---

Ditto 100% - even down to the handful that have never attended any uni and are every bit as good as a Tonmeister.

Our experience in this direction has been so marked, that we provide a special Tonmeister rebate. A Tonmeister graduate pays significantly less for a lock-out (dry-hire as Steve puts it) than others.

The reason is, as Steve says, because I know that I can just get on and do something else productive, I am not being dragged back into the studio every few minutes to explain the difference between 'Channel Path' and 'Mix Path' or what 'Diatonic Shifts' do an an effect machine.

Even something as basic as understanding the architecture of an in-line console seems to be a problem for most graduates of other courses. I have found myself having to explain very, very fundamental principles of electricity to some and even had to explain simple musical structure on one occasion.

Though I do have to admit that it is very rare (and getting even rarer) that graduates of other courses get to use our studio, as producers and artists today are wise to the various standards.

But it's not the kids' fault that they are so poorly educated.

...and so we come full circle to the rip off claims of so many of the more spurious course...all of whom are quite happy to take your money, of course.

As Andy says, you can`t blame the kids coming through these courses, all we can do is try to warn any that come on here what the likelihood is of them actually being taken seriously by anyone in "the business", let alone getting a gig, paid or otherwise.

A gentle reminder: It`s a cold cruel world out there, not just in the music biz, and it keeps getting tougher every day.

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

Quote James Perrett:

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When I started recording bands I had only ever seen the inside of a recording studio by looking at pictures in magazines and I didn't know anyone else into recording. I just learned from my early mistakes and gradually got better. Having said that, I would still recommend spending a few days recording in a decent studio as I've always learned a great deal from watching other people work. I've also learned a great deal from watching other engineers use the gear I have to produce sounds that I had never thought of.

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Completely OT, but, James, you have no idea how much inspiration you just gave me!

There's been a lot of negativity in this thread (I have to admit, I skipped most of the insults). Most of you think that going to work in a studio and working your way up is the only way to make it big in the engineering / production world. It's the way all the 'greats' did it.

Unfortunately studios aren't really big business these days - but fortunately for us, most people reading (at least, those of us who earn 100% of their income from music/recording)... aren't working in studios all the time. To make a buck we're having to improvise.. to be businessmen, marketing experts, networkers AND creative savants.

So if you have the choice to go somewhere like LIPA or do the Tonmeister or SAE... then take the opportunity with open arms. Because if you try and make your way on your own without some basic 'grounding' (especially as an 18 year old - as I did it) you'll be giving up in no time.

In my three years at LIPA I had 24 hour access to millions of pounds worth of studios and had small group 'lectures' with Glyn Johns, Paul McCartney, Jorg Sennheiser, Guy Chambers, Barry Gibb, Nitin Sawhney etc etc etc etc... as well as learning from some of the most knowledgeable and thought provoking people I have ever met in the recording world.

Can you honestly tell me that going on a course like this is wasting my time?

After graduating and working in the 'real world' for a few years, I've realised that lot of people blag in this industry - I've met lots - many engineers in a BIG studio didn't even understand phase.. or mic placements.. or compression - so do you really want to go about your whole career learning from blaggers, blag yourself - or do you want to learn how to do it PROPPERLY?

A year or two on a GREAT course might save you a year or two wasting time in crap studios learning from idiots.

It's just unfortunate that many Music Technology courses out there (i.e. Ipswich Polytechnic etc etc) are going to do you more worse than good.

But just don't be so quick in disregarding these things because they're doing wonders for this industry.

Quote AlexBaron:

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There's been a lot of negativity in this thread (I have to admit, I skipped most of the insults). Most of you think that going to work in a studio and working your way up is the only way to make it big in the engineering / production world. It's the way all the 'greats' did it.

Unfortunately studios aren't really big business these days - but fortunately for us, most people reading (at least, those of us who earn 100% of their income from music/recording)... aren't working in studios all the time. To make a buck we're having to improvise.. to be businessmen, marketing experts, networkers AND creative savants.

So if you have the choice to go somewhere like LIPA or do the Tonmeister or SAE... then take the opportunity with open arms. Because if you try and make your way on your own without some basic 'grounding' (especially as an 18 year old - as I did it) you'll be giving up in no time.

In my three years at LIPA I had 24 hour access to millions of pounds worth of studios and had small group 'lectures' with Glyn Johns, Paul McCartney, Jorg Sennheiser, Guy Chambers, Barry Gibb, Nitin Sawhney etc etc etc etc... as well as learning from some of the most knowledgeable and thought provoking people I have ever met in the recording world.

Can you honestly tell me that going on a course like this is wasting my time?

After graduating and working in the 'real world' for a few years, I've realised that lot of people blag in this industry - I've met lots - many engineers in a BIG studio didn't even understand phase.. or mic placements.. or compression - so do you really want to go about your whole career learning from blaggers, blag yourself - or do you want to learn how to do it PROPPERLY?

A year or two on a GREAT course might save you a year or two wasting time in crap studios learning from idiots.

It's just unfortunate that many Music Technology courses out there (i.e. Ipswich Polytechnic etc etc) are going to do you more worse than good.

But just don't be so quick in disregarding these things because they're doing wonders for this industry.

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But you are making exactly all the same points that we who are perceived as negative have been making in this very thread.
And the only insults I have found in the thread are from the wannabes rather than the old hands.

I`m not surprised that this thread still has legs, but notice the original poster has slipped quietly away.
Let`s hope he learnt something whilst he was here.

Hate to see anyone ripped off by the Sooty `n Sweep schools of audio excellence.

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

Quote AlexBaron:

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A year or two on a GREAT course might save you a year or two wasting time in crap studios learning from idiots.

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Very true -- I've been in commercial studios on occasion and have been completely amazed at the utter incompetence of the engineer... and I've been in some colleges and felt the same amazement.

You're absolutely right, a great course is a good way to learn the technical foundations and the right approaches and techniques. And that's what this whole thread has been about -- highlighting that it really does need to be a great course with great lecturers... and there aren't many of them around.

Quote:

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Can you honestly tell me that going on a course like this is wasting my time?

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No, LIPA is undoubtedly one of the small handfull of really worthy courses -- and I'm gladf you made the most of the opportunities afforded you there.

But as has been said -- you've reinforced exactly the same points that others have made here in their 'negativity'.

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

What does "Sooty `n Sweep schools of audio excellence" mean..?

Appologies if you thought I was being negative towards you.. or anyone... or repeating threads.... I just saw too meany people saying that these courses are a "waste of time".

Maybe they are for some people. But these so called "Sooty 'n Sweep" courses (?!) have more people applying to them than they can handle... so obviously SOME people think there's a benefit...

ps. thanks hugh - you've been a pretty good helping hand with this industry, too

OK, the course that you are attending is great, or alternatively, you are the most talented and the nicest person (don't scoff, this is vital) coming out of the doors of SAE or whatever.

If the old curmudgeons who hold the keys to the handful of jobs available ignore, or worse, reject that piece of paper saying 'Audio Engineer and Producer' then surely that should say something.

When I was given my first job as a Tape-op, A-E school graduates were explicitly excluded from the interviews at my studio. The studio wanted blank slates to teach in their own image and more importantly, it wanted people who were prepared to fetch and carry, to clean up, to make tea. Now, this was some time ago but it's the same industry with many of the same people in charge.

Most of the technology for recording is simple and, when it's all working, obvious. Compared to say, a high end database environment or even programming in Flash - Pro-Tools or Cubase are, to use, toys. The skill is in the application not in the technology.

You don't need access to Necam flying faders or 192HDs to learn about recording, in fact it's probably better to learn on the simplest possible setup - I was given the job because I'd been recording local bands on a cassette four track - also, I was lucky. My girlfriend was friends with the studio receptionist which meant I had a foot in the door - oh, and I made a big fancy resume in calligraphic writing (on second thoughts, that probably did more harm than good!). Anyway, I didn't even understand pre and post fader Auxes at the time but that stuff is best learned by doing and the studio was prepared to accept I'd pick that up pretty quickly in between jogs to the Carruthers sandwich shop for a food and coffee run.

My point being, now that I've finally got to it (!), I understand it when people get defensive about a major life choice they have made being criticised - but when experienced older souls who may have your future in your hands speak it might be something you can learn from.

I've made huge mistakes in my life and the main thing I've learned from them is that the sooner I've admitted I'd made a mistake the faster I've been able to recover from it.

From my own experience, I can only agree that most courses ( bar tonmeister and lipa) are of a low standard.

If you intend to apply, I would ask to sit in on at least a couple of lectures and practical sessions, so you can gauge if you will get anything out of the course before applying.

If you were to look at the prospectus for my degree course, it sounds first class. Claiming that it delivers a highly practical course, based on what is needed and relevant to obtain employment , taught by experienced industry professionals!

The course is actually entirely unstructured, I receive very little practical time and none which I feel is beneficial to my learning.

Its all blagged from start to finish, though worryingly I'm the only one in my year who seems to notice or care.

Quote redroom:

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From my own experience, I can only agree that most courses ( bar tonmeister and lipa) are of a low standard.

If you intend to apply, I would ask to sit in on at least a couple of lectures and practical sessions, so you can gauge if you will get anything out of the course before applying.

If you were to look at the prospectus for my degree course, it sounds first class. Claiming that it delivers a highly practical course, based on what is needed and relevant to obtain employment , taught by experienced industry professionals!

The course is actually entirely unstructured, I receive very little practical time and none which I feel is beneficial to my learning.

Its all blagged from start to finish, though worryingly I'm the only one in my year who seems to notice or care.

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But there again, you are likely to stand out in acrowd of wannabe`s as the one who has some common sense and objectivity.

A good post coming from someone i the thick of it, which really reiterates everything the old lags have been trying to get across.
Maybe now some of the starry-eyed idealists who think all they ahve to do is get a "degree" in oreder to be employable will stop and take a good hard look at what they are actually being taught.

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

I don't think anyone on here has said that enrolling on a good course is a golden ticket to a great career. On the contrary, a great course will sober you up to the difficulties of the 'industry' of audio and therefore push the boundaries of your own abilities to the limit. It's not about using flashy, expensive equipment (in the first year at LIPA you're confined to the smaller studios for all your projects anyway), nor learning how to write a fancy CV.

I graduated three or four years ago now, and I can safely say I learnt more working in real studios with real clients in a month than three years at LIPA. But that's not the point; having the right attitude, theoretical knowledge and grounding enables you to jump head first into a session with paying clients in a foreign environment on your first day - because you've had so much time to experiment and learn from your peers and the people you look up to. Of course you can pick up these skills in the real world if you're lucky enough that someone will sit down and explain to you all this knowledge over the course of a few years... but not too many of us have that opportunity. And there's always the danger of learning from a lazy engineer.... you'd just be picking up his/her bad habits.

Of course we all start off in the same boat - at zero - I've swept floors, made tea and taken crap as much as the next guy - but in a volatile audio industry that's even more competitive than ten years ago (when these courses didn't exist) we now have the choice to (attempt) to put ourselves in the most favourable light for prospective employers (but not without the hard grafting you'd expect). It's a difficult subject because many of these 'employers' didn't have this opportunity and so are never going to think it will teach you 'real' experience because "I didn't do it and look where I am now...". I agree with them - it won't.

It's not about being a "starry-eyed idealist". This is an ego filled world and sometimes its nice to respect the choices of your peers, the people you learn from and the people who learn from you. It makes the world of difference whether your an 'employer' or an 'employee'.