OK, the course that you are attending is great, or alternatively, you are the most talented and the nicest person (don't scoff, this is vital) coming out of the doors of SAE or whatever.

If the old curmudgeons who hold the keys to the handful of jobs available ignore, or worse, reject that piece of paper saying 'Audio Engineer and Producer' then surely that should say something.

When I was given my first job as a Tape-op, A-E school graduates were explicitly excluded from the interviews at my studio. The studio wanted blank slates to teach in their own image and more importantly, it wanted people who were prepared to fetch and carry, to clean up, to make tea. Now, this was some time ago but it's the same industry with many of the same people in charge.

Most of the technology for recording is simple and, when it's all working, obvious. Compared to say, a high end database environment or even programming in Flash - Pro-Tools or Cubase are, to use, toys. The skill is in the application not in the technology.

You don't need access to Necam flying faders or 192HDs to learn about recording, in fact it's probably better to learn on the simplest possible setup - I was given the job because I'd been recording local bands on a cassette four track - also, I was lucky. My girlfriend was friends with the studio receptionist which meant I had a foot in the door - oh, and I made a big fancy resume in calligraphic writing (on second thoughts, that probably did more harm than good!). Anyway, I didn't even understand pre and post fader Auxes at the time but that stuff is best learned by doing and the studio was prepared to accept I'd pick that up pretty quickly in between jogs to the Carruthers sandwich shop for a food and coffee run.

My point being, now that I've finally got to it (!), I understand it when people get defensive about a major life choice they have made being criticised - but when experienced older souls who may have your future in your hands speak it might be something you can learn from.

I've made huge mistakes in my life and the main thing I've learned from them is that the sooner I've admitted I'd made a mistake the faster I've been able to recover from it.

From my own experience, I can only agree that most courses ( bar tonmeister and lipa) are of a low standard.

If you intend to apply, I would ask to sit in on at least a couple of lectures and practical sessions, so you can gauge if you will get anything out of the course before applying.

If you were to look at the prospectus for my degree course, it sounds first class. Claiming that it delivers a highly practical course, based on what is needed and relevant to obtain employment , taught by experienced industry professionals!

The course is actually entirely unstructured, I receive very little practical time and none which I feel is beneficial to my learning.

Its all blagged from start to finish, though worryingly I'm the only one in my year who seems to notice or care.

Quote redroom:

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From my own experience, I can only agree that most courses ( bar tonmeister and lipa) are of a low standard.

If you intend to apply, I would ask to sit in on at least a couple of lectures and practical sessions, so you can gauge if you will get anything out of the course before applying.

If you were to look at the prospectus for my degree course, it sounds first class. Claiming that it delivers a highly practical course, based on what is needed and relevant to obtain employment , taught by experienced industry professionals!

The course is actually entirely unstructured, I receive very little practical time and none which I feel is beneficial to my learning.

Its all blagged from start to finish, though worryingly I'm the only one in my year who seems to notice or care.

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But there again, you are likely to stand out in acrowd of wannabe`s as the one who has some common sense and objectivity.

A good post coming from someone i the thick of it, which really reiterates everything the old lags have been trying to get across.
Maybe now some of the starry-eyed idealists who think all they ahve to do is get a "degree" in oreder to be employable will stop and take a good hard look at what they are actually being taught.

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

I don't think anyone on here has said that enrolling on a good course is a golden ticket to a great career. On the contrary, a great course will sober you up to the difficulties of the 'industry' of audio and therefore push the boundaries of your own abilities to the limit. It's not about using flashy, expensive equipment (in the first year at LIPA you're confined to the smaller studios for all your projects anyway), nor learning how to write a fancy CV.

I graduated three or four years ago now, and I can safely say I learnt more working in real studios with real clients in a month than three years at LIPA. But that's not the point; having the right attitude, theoretical knowledge and grounding enables you to jump head first into a session with paying clients in a foreign environment on your first day - because you've had so much time to experiment and learn from your peers and the people you look up to. Of course you can pick up these skills in the real world if you're lucky enough that someone will sit down and explain to you all this knowledge over the course of a few years... but not too many of us have that opportunity. And there's always the danger of learning from a lazy engineer.... you'd just be picking up his/her bad habits.

Of course we all start off in the same boat - at zero - I've swept floors, made tea and taken crap as much as the next guy - but in a volatile audio industry that's even more competitive than ten years ago (when these courses didn't exist) we now have the choice to (attempt) to put ourselves in the most favourable light for prospective employers (but not without the hard grafting you'd expect). It's a difficult subject because many of these 'employers' didn't have this opportunity and so are never going to think it will teach you 'real' experience because "I didn't do it and look where I am now...". I agree with them - it won't.

It's not about being a "starry-eyed idealist". This is an ego filled world and sometimes its nice to respect the choices of your peers, the people you learn from and the people who learn from you. It makes the world of difference whether your an 'employer' or an 'employee'.