Greetings!

I recorded and filmed this live acoustic cover on Saturday for Lucy Machin:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OSQn_8Jn4E

I am quite happy with the sound I got from the Shure Beta 58 for the vocal as it handled Lucy's huge dynamic range, gave a decent tone (for a live situation) and provided great separation from the guitar.

I'm not so happy with the guitar sound though. It's a Yamaha APX-900 and the DI gives a decent signal but it sounds a bit like a classic Ovation tone - not rich enough for me! As you can see from the video, I positioned an old A & F mic just slightly up the neck from the sound-hole. This gave a nice sound but there was too much spill when Lucy blasted out the louder vocal sections. This has as a slight phasing effect on these phrases which wasn't too bad but meant I had to back off the mic signal more than I would have liked.

So my question is, given this situation, what mic would have worked better, giving Lucy enough space to play, so being perhaps 6 inches out from the guitar, but providing focus to reduce spill from the loud vocal while giving a richer instrument sound? Cost wise I'd like to keep it under £200 if possible. I don’t have an SM57 and I'm wondering it that would have worked better?

I very much look forward to any suggestions.

Very best wishes,

Toby

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Have a look and listen to our music:
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Might be worth trying the same mic but in a different position? Sometimes it can work to point it at or just behind the bridge of the guitar for instance. I once had to record someone playing fingerstyle guitar in the same room as a drumkit, and in the end, the thing that worked best was an old AKG D19 dynamic jammed as close as possible up to the bridge.

Alternatively, a ribbon mic would give you a thicker and meatier sound, and the figure-8 pattern is often best for separation, but they do tend to get boomy when used up close.

Thanks Sam,

Good point; I should have experimented more with the positioning. As she recorded this in one take that was all I had before I reaslised the problem. But next time I'll try alternative mic positions in en effort to get it nearer the source.

I'm wondering what ribbon mics you were thinking of?

Regards,
Toby

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Have a look and listen to our music:
TobesMusic.com

Well, the ribbon mics I have are all from the dawn of time and long out of production, so I won't recommend any of them, but there are quite a few modern ones available for under £200. The only one I've tried is the Oktava ML-52, which I wasn't keen on. (Unlike the older ML-51, which is nice.) Maybe something like the Cascade Fathead? Most of the big mic manufacturers have a couple of ribbons in their range now -- sE, Sontronics, etc.

That's cool thank you! I'll check these out.
Many thanks
Toby

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Have a look and listen to our music:
TobesMusic.com

Slightly off the wall suggestion:

The AKG c411 has been suggested in these pages as a good live solution for guitar, mandolin, dulcimer, etc.
It's a bit like the old 'limpet' style pickups we had to struggle with before the saddle piezo was developed. It has some of the midrange resonance inherent in the design but is otherwise infinitely better.

Carefully placed it would be perfectly acceptable, coupled with decent EQ or any modern recording software for YouTube style video and without any of the spill problems.

90ish euros online.

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Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

Thanks Sean,

That's an interesting idea. Very cost-effective too. Yes, all of this is going onto Sonar so EQ is not an issue.

Many thanks
Toby

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Have a look and listen to our music:
TobesMusic.com

I have suggested AKG C411 previously in these forums, and they're a great 'save me' for live situations, however, although they may provide an improved sound for recording over an internal pickup, they would not be my first choice for recording. The problem being that they are only pickup the sound from one part of the body of the guitar whereas an acoustic guitar sound is by much the sum of its parts, which is what you hear when you mic it.

My preferred live acoustic guitar mic is the Sennheiser e614 but this would be beyond your budget. I'm wondering if the Rode M3 would be worth considering? It has received good reviews around here and would be a bit of a workhorse which you could apply to other tasks.

Bob

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www.bickerton.co.nz

Thanks very much for this Bob.

The Sennheiser E614 looks to be around £150 so actually is right in the price range I was thinking about (below £200) so I'll give this one some serious research and testing.

That's extremely helpful, thank you!

Regards
Toby

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Have a look and listen to our music:
TobesMusic.com

Nice track, good muso...

Try using the guitar-mic pointed down, you'll get less singer in the guitar mic.

Or use the mic on the guitar for the vox (is it a condenser?) but move it below her mouth and nearer the guitar. If it has a nice off-axis sound, you'll get some nice 'wood' off the guitar, and then add a touch of the pickup to taste. Take care of the studio acoustic, though.
Using only one mic, you won't have any comb-filtering effects to contend with.

Try delaying the pickup track by half a millisecond or so in the mix: align the waveforms. And also check the polarity of the pickup when mixed with the vocal and bit of guitar. One way will be warmer.

Or try a fig 8 condenser mic, and aim the null at the singer. This also helps with the comb-filtering effect.

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PA stuff on FB

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/aug08/articles/qa0808_3.htm

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Take It Easy

Thanks Guy and Jim,

From what I'm taking from this, using a figure of 8 pattern on a capacitor guitar mic is s good option I hadn't considered to reduce vocal spill. But as an alternative approach, a Sennheiser E614 might be a good investment. Other user feedback seems to suggest this is a better bet than an AKG C1000 these days.

All this is assuming I can't get better results by experimenting a bit more on positioning my existing mics, which I'll obviously try first.

Many thanks and best wishes,

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Have a look and listen to our music:
TobesMusic.com

That's pretty much it, but somewhat dependent on whether you want to put the mic through front of house, or just use it for recording.

If you only want to use the mic for recording then you could explore LDC mics or ribbons in figure of eight mode, though I'd be cautious about the robustness of a ribbon in a live setting. Using an SDC such as the e614 gives you the option to put that mic through the system, it's well behaved in that sense, as well as being suitable for recording. I wouldn't worry too much about separation between vocals and guitar for live work, provided you've got workable levels on each.

And yes the C1000 would rarely get recommended around here apart from hammering and door stop duties. Fine in its day, but very much superseded now.

Bob

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www.bickerton.co.nz