I'm looking to indulge a passion for synths and expand my professional skillsets.. I have long been fascinated by synths and their inner workings, but would like to take this a step further and understand how to fix them in more detail.

I have performed numerous low-level repairs on my own synths over the years and would like to "go advanced".
I intend to study electronics part time as part of this but would like to also get some specific experience from a guru of some sort..
I am a Broadcast Engineer by trade so have a good technical understanding and experience.

So.. if there are any synth electronics engineers out there who wouldn't mind taking on a part-time, willing, 30-something(just) apprentice who can make a blinding cup of tea then drop me a line.
I am based in SE London, but can travel in the SE UK area.



help me Obi-Wan(OB1) Kenobi

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MBP 17", PC 100(Nubus Protools) Motu 896, X-Station, Logic9, Reason6, Korg legacy, ACE, Alchemy, Emax II, E-Synth, Evolver MEK, Waldorf Pulse and Blofeld, AS Telemark, AS Leipzig-S

I've wondered similar myself although sounds like you're much closer than me with your existing broadcast background (mine is software). I've always imagined I'd do it by

1. Learning enough electronics. GCSE? A level? Degree? Not sure
2. Building my own synths as one would have a thorough grounding in the underlying principals

It's a good idea. I'm sure James walker at synth repairs would be pleased as he might not suffer an early demise from overwork after all!

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Original artwork and unique devices inspired by vintage technology http://www.thisisobsolete.com

I would gladly travel to someone like James although the distance would limit the amount of time I could go there.. but if an opportunity like that surfaced I'd make the effort



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MBP 17", PC 100(Nubus Protools) Motu 896, X-Station, Logic9, Reason6, Korg legacy, ACE, Alchemy, Emax II, E-Synth, Evolver MEK, Waldorf Pulse and Blofeld, AS Telemark, AS Leipzig-S

Synths aren't that different to all kinds of other electronic devices. You just need a logical approach in order to find the fault and then decent soldering skills in order to replace whatever needs replacing. You could probably start by buying up some faulty gear on Ebay or from local car boot sales and learning how to fix it. The older it is the more repairable it is likely to be.

James.

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JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

James has a good point. Whilst there are synth guru's out there, they are generally good at electronics but their knowledge of specific synths comes from experience, not training.

My amp tech is a great example, he's overjoyed if I make the effort to find a schematic online for him. He's spent over 30 years taking gear apart, tracing the circuits, reading component values, and drawing his own schematics. And once he's worked out what should be happening, he gets out the oscilloscope and starts working through the circuit with a calculator. And even when he has a good idea where the problem might be, he's still happiest working through the circuit.

I would take that electronics course and at the same time hit the car boot sales and auctions and start stripping stuff down and figuring out how it works from 1st principles (and some discrete web searches ) You'll be pleasantly surprised how often the problem is fixed by taking apart and cleaning. And then you'll get frustrated by hard to find or unobtainable parts.

And once you've learned a lot yourself, you'll find it as lot easier to get help and advice from more experienced techs. Before we know it, you'll be answering technical questions here on the forum

Andy

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When the going gets weird, the Weird turn Pro.

Get Horowitz and Hill, along with the student manual, and work through the first 6 chapters.
I tried using just the text at first, but the manual really opens it up (i.e. dumbs it down when it gets tough!)

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Adam Inglis
Funboys

I’ve also been surprised at just how many complete circuit diagrams you can find on-line for various analogue synths - once you have the basis electronic knowledge you can study these to learn a lot more about their inner workings, and many of the old analogue ones tend to be very modular in design, with comparatively easy to understand sections


Martin

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YewTreeMagic

I should add that I am pursuing other avenues, such as tinkering and fixing things.
I have (and can read) various circuit diagrams and service manuals for synths and samplers I own, as well as searching out various resources on the net.

What I am looking and hoping for is to be able to work with a mentor of some sort as I find this experience to be infinitely more beneficial than the other methods mentioned here



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MBP 17", PC 100(Nubus Protools) Motu 896, X-Station, Logic9, Reason6, Korg legacy, ACE, Alchemy, Emax II, E-Synth, Evolver MEK, Waldorf Pulse and Blofeld, AS Telemark, AS Leipzig-S

Quote Chevytraveller:

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I should add that I am pursuing other avenues, such as tinkering and fixing things.
I have (and can read) various circuit diagrams and service manuals for synths and samplers I own, as well as searching out various resources on the net.

What I am looking and hoping for is to be able to work with a mentor of some sort as I find this experience to be infinitely more beneficial than the other methods mentioned here

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Maybe contact James directly then. By all accounts he's an affable chap. Maybe he could farm out the simpler jobs to you?

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Original artwork and unique devices inspired by vintage technology http://www.thisisobsolete.com

Most people I've come across that get seriously into any electronics repair/renovation do it more for fun and challenge than money. OK, there are times when it can get pretty gutty, and the cheque eases the pain somewhat, but (certainly for me) it's the immense satisfaction of taking something broken and bringing it back to life - especially if I can then see the owner using it.

If you've already been dabbling a bit I expect you've learned the value of a logical approach, but how about talking to the owner of an unwell piece of kit? Being told how a fault developed can be a great help. Also, don't be afraid to admit you don't know how the kit works! One of my favourite lines is 'Just cos I know how the bits work doesn't mean I know how to use it.' Always gets a laugh (and in industry makes the operators feel important).

Some advice I was given a long time ago:
Really learn what the bits can do and you'll be able to follow almost any circuit thrown at you.

Draw out anything that's getting confusing - and keep the drawings!

A great aid to this is a lilliput 6V light bulb soldered to a thin flex and actually run at about 9V, then held behind the PCB you're examining. Being so small you can thread it behind obstacles and between boards and mounting panels. This will show up the reverse side track, and also gives you a bit of a fighting chance with some multi-layer boards. It's better than LEDs as it's a broad all-round light source.

Ideally you want as the biggest workbench you can manage. It's always too small Avoid laminate surfaces like the plague - a lot of them have a microscopic metal film inside which can cause all sorts of obscure problems.

Someone mentioned oscilloscopes - a good twin beam analogue model will quickly (and relatively cheaply) become your best friend. All but the most expensive digitals throw a lot of useful information away. get into the habit of just hooking them on all over the place and twiddling the knobs to see what happens. There's lots of stuff you just have to see to appreciate - nobody can really describe it. Parasitics, ringing, crossover, limiting, all become instantly recognisable once you've seen them.

Don't forget mechanical stuff though, it can throw up some evil surprises - like brass-on-brass spindles seizing up.

Years ago one of the Radio Rentals guys become an absolute wizard at repairing record decks. With an unfamiliar deck, he'd sit there with the thing stood up on jam jars (so he could see from all angles) and would just watch the mech action for maybe an hour. He'd have a cup of tea, then go straight to the fault.

Incidentally I'm a {cough}few years{cough} away from retirement and have often though this would be a nice line to get into myself, so maybe I'll see you around sometime

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It wasn't me!
(Well, actually, it probably was)

Quote Chevytraveller:

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What I am looking and hoping for is to be able to work with a mentor of some sort as I find this experience to be infinitely more beneficial than the other methods mentioned here

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Yep, understand exactly where you are coming from there. Which is why I said..

Quote zenguitar:

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And once you've learned a lot yourself, you'll find it as lot easier to get help and advice from more experienced techs.

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It's something I went through a lot when I was starting out with guitars. I was never afraid to pick up the phone and cold call someone for advice or information. And people were generally polite, but once I could demonstrate that I was genuinely interested and had already built a good understanding they would go a lot further and provide incredible help and support. A big part of why I am here on the SOS forums is to give back the same sort of help I was given when starting out.

Sometimes being a tech is a very lonely experience. Ninety five percent of my guitar conversations are about basics, and even when people are interested in the more complex stuff, their eyes soon glaze over. And I'm lucky, in my village pub another regular is a trained brass instrument repairer. Once we get going even the hardcore muso's give us a wide berth.

If you can call an experienced synth repairer, ask intelligent questions, and have learned enough to understand what he's talking about. You'll be doing him a favour I promise. And in return, he'll feed your thirst for knowledge.

Andy

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When the going gets weird, the Weird turn Pro.

Having schematics is also handy for checking what should be there, sometimes you will get items without parts, the wrong part, dodgy equivalents, transistors connections wrong or diodes the wrong way around - What is great with having things on PDF is going down to the printers and getting the diagram printed on A2 or A1

One thing that I've noticed is fixing parts on things is becoming a bit of a lost art and you might find a visit to some PC workshops will reveal that they don't have a soldering iron, or they use it now and again. With LCD replacing CRTs it is getting to be slim pickings out there, mind you that's not to say there are not things to fix, but it is a totally different ball game and whereas I have managed to adapt from old to new, it might be a bit of a challenge the other way around

Then there is the weird side of it.. the sixth sense or whatever, were you can look at something and say ahhh that's wrong

Something's you can't fix, something's don't want to be fixed and sometimes someone else will take two minutes to fix what you have spent two days on... which is why and this might be a good point for you to raise... its always nice to have more than one person in the workshop

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www.dragonlogos.co.uk

My advice would be to surf the net to find as many schematics for as wide a variety of synths as you can, then inwardly digest until you understand how every section works.

Synths involve a lot of different electronics techniques, starting with linear and switched-mode power supplies, through analogue and digital signal generation, filtering, mixing and envelope shaping, through to simple logic control and switch scanning on to full-blown microprocessor controls, memory and remote access.

Once you have mastered the concepts and basic design theory you can start tackling real hardware...

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Not quite answering your question, but there are lots of very helpful and knowledgeable synth (both vintage and DIY) people and resources (manuals, sources of rare parts, etc) on the electro-music forum:
http://electro-music.com/

Peter

There's also a half decent primer book by Delton T.Horn called Troubleshooting and Repairing Electronic Music Synthesizers.

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Samplecraze
Stretch That Note

If any of you get into synth repair you should be millionaires surely.

I mean, just move up to gerodieland where I live. Nearest bloke is to me is Stoke!!!!!!
Surely the demand (certainly where I live) far outstrips supply.

Please please please DO get into this. And then move up to the North East. Talk about gap in the market.

Unless I just see this from an analogue synth lovers lens.

Quote kolakube:

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Unless I just see this from an analogue synth lovers lens.

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Sorry to break the news Kola and I must confess this feels like the moment that as a precocious 5 year old I told my cousin that Santa didn't exist, but ... maybe you should be sitting down ... I'm afraid I have to tell you that not everybody is as obsessed with hardware as we are!

I know I know I'm sorry but it's true Kola. It's hard to believe yes. Almost unthinkable that not everybody goes week at the knees before a cheesy vintage synthesiser or a crusty archaic sampling drum machine but it is, I'm afraid, true. No Kola, I won't have it. No protestations. I know it hurts but you must come to terms with it. Yes they're senseless fools blind to the beauties of a discrete circuit or the soft sinuous curves of a 1.27 mm pitch board-to-board ribbon cable (it's all FFC these days, no style I tell you no style) but it's just fact.

It's Ok though. It's not your fault. We're here to help.

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Original artwork and unique devices inspired by vintage technology http://www.thisisobsolete.com

Yeah but there has to be more than me alone in the north east. Surely in the true north of England, IE York and up there is much work for one single tech?

Surely James walker and other reliable techs who I can count on one hand are overwhelmed hence the long wait times?

I dont believe there is just me and you with analogues Jim Yes, there may only by 10000 collectors in the UK but then there are only 3 or 4 tech worth while. Do you see the problem with that estimated ratio?

I doubt very much if chevey were to start this venture he would suffer from lack of work.

There is a market for it and if it were to be extended to mixer repairs then it would be an earner. The problem is that there are quite a few synth repairers out there but only a few are any good.

Those that have electronics degrees or the like tend to pick jobs with decent and steady incomes. Those that have the qualifications need to be synth lovers to get into it otherwise there are better earning options out there.

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Samplecraze
Stretch That Note

We inhabit a tiny world, Kola, physically and conceptually. I've seen several personal friends’ businesses in analogue repairs go to the wall. There’s precious little work out there (albeit a large amount for the few specialists that remain) and what there is often doesn't have the funds to back it up. I have a small analogue mountain of my own, yet the amount I spend on repairs wouldn’t keep someone in cat food.

We’re reaching the point that classic car owners reached a long time ago – if you own one of these things you need to be capable of doing much of the maintenance yourself, else you risk being lumbered with a piece of non-functional eye-candy. I know enough to tackle the basics, but were it not for a small network of enthusiasts there are a few pieces of gear that would by now be attractive pieces of furniture.

I need to clear one thing up though…

Santa is alive and well, folks! I have friends working for him right now. One makes action figures, one makes train wheels and the other is a consultant in Corporate Asset Management. Jelly Jim must be thinking about some other mythical version of the real dude. Panic over!

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Quote The Elf:

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I need to clear one thing up though…

Santa is alive and well, folks! I have friends working for him right now. One makes action figures, one makes train wheels and the other is a consultant in Corporate Asset Management. Jelly Jim must be thinking about some other mythical version of the real dude. Panic over!

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Sorry did I say Santa? My bad. I of course meant God.

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Original artwork and unique devices inspired by vintage technology http://www.thisisobsolete.com

Quote kolakube:

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If any of you get into synth repair you should be millionaires surely.

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Alas, this is not the case. I stopped doing repair because I didn't earn enough money from it. I was always busy but in the end the hourly rate I actually got from repair work was pretty low. You'd earn considerably more being an electrician. And you'd get to talk to people from time to time. You certainly have to like your own company if you are going to repair synths full time.

Quote jellyjim:

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Quote The Elf:

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I need to clear one thing up though…

Santa is alive and well, folks! I have friends working for him right now. One makes action figures, one makes train wheels and the other is a consultant in Corporate Asset Management. Jelly Jim must be thinking about some other mythical version of the real dude. Panic over!

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Sorry did I say Santa? My bad. I of course meant God.

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Ah! That makes perfect sense. As you were, that man. Good show!

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Synth Builder

Im still gutted you packed in mate. You were my Jupiter 4s life line if I ever needed it. I have a MIDI interface for it with no way to fit it.

Of course you done what was right for you and I really wish you continued success with your new venture. Just wished you have trained an apprentice :]

Quote Synth Builder:

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Quote kolakube:

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If any of you get into synth repair you should be millionaires surely.

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Alas, this is not the case. I stopped doing repair because I didn't earn enough money from it. I was always busy but in the end the hourly rate I actually got from repair work was pretty low. You'd earn considerably more being an electrician. And you'd get to talk to people from time to time. You certainly have to like your own company if you are going to repair synths full time.

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Guitar repair is much the same. There's always plenty of work, but a lot of it ends up being done for hourly rates a fraction of the minimum wage. You always want to do a good job, largely through pride and professionalism, but also for pragmatic reasons.. you are only as good as your last job. There are pro's and semi-pro's who will happily pay the full rate for the right job, but a lot people come in with a limited budget so want a specific problem fixed rather than a full service. And you end up spending extra unbilled time doing a few extra bits here and there, a little preventative maintenance, a thorough cleaning, and before you know it, you are working for £2 an hour.

I even vacuum the guitar cases and oil the hinges and latches. Partly practical, but largely for the customer experience. They come and collect their pride and joy, and they are going to have to hand over money. Just by opening the case and looking they can see (and smell, seriously!!) a massive improvement. And when they take it out and test it, it feels clean and fresh. There are times when they just go 'WOW', look at it, and get their wallets out; you have to remind them to try it out and make sure it's OK.

That's why there are plenty of techs/repairers but only a handful that are always busy and in demand.

And yes, you can go days in your workshop without seeing anyone. Radio 4 becomes your best friend.

Andy

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When the going gets weird, the Weird turn Pro.

Quote Synth Builder:

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Quote kolakube:

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If any of you get into synth repair you should be millionaires surely.

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Alas, this is not the case. I stopped doing repair because I didn't earn enough money from it. I was always busy but in the end the hourly rate I actually got from repair work was pretty low. You'd earn considerably more being an electrician. And you'd get to talk to people from time to time. You certainly have to like your own company if you are going to repair synths full time.

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It's actually worse that that. Did you know that a machine operator earns more than the engineer who maintains and repairs his gear?

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It wasn't me!
(Well, actually, it probably was)

Not being rude but it sounds like you all didn't make enough money because you didn't charge an decent hourly rate or whatever.

Anyone would go bust if this happened.

My 2 cents worth, I don't think alot of musicians actually have alot of money... and yes, it is actually a very small market, hence I don't think there is alot of money to be made fixing synths. (possibly more in washing machine repairs)
Oneday, when I have a "one hit wonder", I will take the royalties and buy every peice of dis-used analogue synth I can get my greedy hands on and keep all synth techs out there gainfully employed... but I will probably have blown all my money within a few years and have to sell it all at slightly less than over inflated prices to support my uncontrollable drug habit, which I use to mask my low self esteem, because of my inability to ever recapture my one moment of glory... and eventually die a lonely man in a one bedroom flat in some obscure place no has heard of.

But then again, what has money got to do, got to do with it?
and who needs a synth when a synth can be broken...? Ooooooo....

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"In space no-one can hear you scream".

Repairing anything seems to be a waste of time for the money it brings, it is much better if its organised, ie if you have centres or people turning over one type of thing, like a laptop repair centre... perhaps this is something that government can help with as an environment issue - and there's lots to be done, printer repairs recycling printer cartridges, PC motherboard repairs and so on, this could all be managed under the banner of e-waste

It is difficult if not impossible for one person to be expected to learn the in's and out's of complex systems, it takes many many hours to work out what and how something works and even longer sometimes to come up with a working repair. Many years back the one company I was working for decided to send Interoffice memos regarding faults and repairs, which saved us countless hours... today you have the internet. There are a few problems, not everyone want to just give away their knowledge, getting a band of people or sites together... and then trying to make a go of it even if it is just to try and cover costs (Just remembered something.. someone once said that getting a bunch of strong minded individuals together to do something is like trying to herd cats)

Its hard to keep the soldering iron on when the money is just not there and you know that you can do better else where with far less bother and effort, then what do you do... I am good at fixing PCs even down to the point of repairing latent defects, but at the end of the day when you see the amount of cash that some people pull in using their computers you have to think sod it all and maybe give it a go as well

So maybe there should be a grant for helping keep old technology from the pit, or if it has to go on the long walk, then it gets a bit of thought behind it, working bits on a database... things like CRTs recycled with a Glass and Lead separation program, batteries disposed of responsibly and so on

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www.dragonlogos.co.uk

Edited by DragonLogos (29/10/10 09:40 AM)

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And yes, you can go days in your workshop without seeing anyone. Radio 4 becomes your best friend.

Andy

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Have you been spying on me? (he says while listening to GQT)

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"Who were Wings? Only the band the Beatles could have been.."

Quote bunker:

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And yes, you can go days in your workshop without seeing anyone. Radio 4 becomes your best friend.

Andy

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Have you been spying on me? (he says while listening to GQT)

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NO!!! I've been far too busy having a conversation with Radio 4, yes, it really does get that bad. You only have to worry when the radio responds to your rants in a reasoned manner.

Andy

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When the going gets weird, the Weird turn Pro.

What is this 'Radio 4' you speak of?
Also, what is the reason for the horrific noise I hear when I set the dial of my wireless to Droitwich?

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It wasn't me!
(Well, actually, it probably was)

Aside from electronics, anything you can learn about fixing the actual keys is golden. There's much nice kit on the market going at low price because of a broken key, crushed return spring, or unresponsive contacts.

Taking a piano &/or organ course is probably a more solid basis for a career. In some cities, a tech who can rebuild a Hammond keyboard would probably be swamped, moreso with tonewheel repair. The techs who know this stuff are retiring or dead, yet the old Hammonds will be around for decades to come.

EMI (Minneapolis) has a shop rate of $80/hour, $40 minimum, more for on-site calls. Last I stopped by, their techs were booked solid.

Maybe pick up practical hands-on knowledge, then search out an apprenticeship at a shop. They'd aid you in getting certified for warranty work, which is always good for a career.

There's lots of good responses to your question, and I'd agree with much of it.

I had used to be as a day job (amongst other things) the main UK engineer for Oberheim (at Chase Musicians, if anyone remembers that) and over my career have worked extensively (in synths alone) on everything from the original EMS, through Moogs and ARPs to Prophets, OBs - and so on.

I don't do that anymore. The job of synth repair has largely died, together with several earlier careers in analogue audio I once had In fact, most of the time now there is no economic argument to support repairing equipment (there may be other valid arguments of course).

If you actually want to do it, there's two aspects I would identify:

1. Analogue electronics.
2. Digital electronics.

The Oberheims and Prophets and so on were at the cusp of the meeting of these two technologies. The DX7 et seq. moved more to the digital side. Current equipment is largely pure digital.

If you want to do the old analogue and semi-digital stuff there are several hurdles. To actually be good at it, you need to know the analogue electronics practice and fault-finding really quite well, as rather complex circuitry is used which fails in very 'interesting' ways (and frequently is exasperatingly difficult to trace, because of complex feedback).

Then you need to be good enough on the digital side as well. That means quite good!

With the older gear a big problem is the absence of spares. The parts used have not been manufactured for years: I have a small stock of appropriate bits, as do many other engineers in the field (no we don't want to sell them! Well, let me think about that...) but even the companies that used to make the semiconductors often no longer exist.

With the newer gear, such as the Novation Xiosynth 25 I have at my side, the parts are available but you need to have a rework station to change any of the very small parts, and the value of the gear is such as to make the repair process again of doubtful economic merit.

For example (prices S/E UK):

Novation Xiosynth new cost say £210
Cost per hour of labour £70 (that's what a plumber charges)
Amortised cost workstation, electricity, space say £15/hr

If the repair takes more than 2 hours then it is marginally worth doing.

And note, that my present company charges me out at at least £150 per hour - that's competitive pricing in the field I work in now (I don't get all of that of course!).

On an old OB8, say, a complete overhaul and retune will take 8 hours or so. And that's if I've got the parts... if I have to substitute some component, then the time may be much longer to reconfigure part of the circuitry to work with the non-original part.

So there may be much satisfaction (eventually!) and interest in repairing gear, including synths, but the profit motive is probably not a good reason to do it.

I watched the rise of computer wonks The Geek Squad (north edge of Minneapolis). I had them do some repairs, at a minimum cost of $100 -- it was always surprising to step into the reception area & see some new signed photo from the Rolling Stones or Smashing Pumpkins or whoever, who'd called in the Geeks to fix their gear before a big show.

It seems to me that the steady cash (as a tech) isn't from working in the back room, but becoming a local "name" who's called to venues by touring acts who're in a jam, willing & able to pay substantially for fast results.

Another route would be to buy up broken gear for salvage rates, then rebuild & resell it at premium prices. I once bought a small combo amp that looked to've been rolled down the staircase a few times. I recovered it with $20 of Tolex, replaced the knobs, checked the soldering, touched up the faceplate scratches. Put it through paces, shot the pots with cleaner. Resold it for substantially more than I'd paid. It took a couple hours, & I've often thought that the owner would probably have balked at my bill, even though the work certainly made the amp more valuable.

I'd generally agree that "most musicians aren't wealthy," but it's surprising how many can find $1,000+ for a guitar & $15 for a weekly infusion of fancy strings, yet would squeal at being quoted $100 for a proper setup. I imagine it's much similar for synth owners.