Hi

I'm looking at getting together with a mate and doing a few gigs as a duo.
We're not keen to use 'fixed' backing tracks (as it can lead to issues with changes to song format, or missed verses / lines etc).
I'm looking into alterntive ideas.....

I know there are some 'high end' arranger keyboards out there that offer significantly more fexibility than the old fashoned 'auto accompniment' keyboards of old....
I've also got access to a Korg N364 which has the 'Realtime Pattern Playback / Record' feature - from what I've read so far I think you can take patterns (either recorded or copied out fo a full sequence) and assing them to keys.

I'm thinking with this I can either cut out complete verse / chorus sections and map them to keys, or maybe individual lines / phrases (but I guess the more sections, then the more complex the playback will be).

Has anyone out there done something similar?
If so what are you using?
Are there any alternative keyboards (or other devices) I could be looking at (realistically I'm looking at options I can get cheapish from ebay - I don't have funds for a top of the line new flagship workstation!)
Are there any software alternatives that could do these functions?

Any thoughts / ideas / suggestions / experience would be greatly appreciated....

Thanks

--------------------
PaulF

Quote PaulF:

---

Hi

I'm looking at getting together with a mate and doing a few gigs as a duo.
We're not keen to use 'fixed' backing tracks (as it can lead to issues with changes to song format, or missed verses / lines etc).
I'm looking into alterntive ideas.....

---

An interesting reason for not using backing tracks! I've got no problem with having to learn the song, but hate them on quite different grounds.

Apart from not wanting to use such things at all, I find that auto-arrange keyboards come with over-elaborate patterns that get in the way and quickly pall. If you edit them down to bare simplicity they can be just about tolerable.

Genuinely not taking the piss but...

...have you considered just playing the song? Leave the backing tracks to those who can't.

I admit to being a bit of a Luddite in this sense.

--------------------
Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

Quote PaulF:

---

I'm thinking with this I can either cut out complete verse / chorus sections and map them to keys, or maybe individual lines / phrases (but I guess the more sections, then the more complex the playback will be).

---

I've just realised what you're suggesting! Now, don't be silly! If you're going to switch in each line of music with a keypress, you have to be VERY organized regarding which key to press BEFORE you sing the line. If you're floundering around missing lines out, this is just going to get you in deeper trouble.

What instruments do you two actually play? Can't you be entertaining by doing what you CAN do, rather than hiding behind tracks?

Thanks for your thoughts and comments.

I've played in many 'large' bands, and I'm looking to try out the 'duo/trio' thing as a change.
Also, the genre I'm looking to play is not used to live bands (certainly not round here), so when I tried this with a band a couple of years ago we were 'not wanted' for being too big / too loud / too 'rough' (i.e. not a perfect backing track).

It's interesting.... If I was on a slightly different forum, asking about how to trigger sample loops and dance fills then I'm guessing I'd have loads of positive suggestions.
I'm anticipating having to program my own backing tracks from scratch (as i want them to be considerably more than just an 'auto chord' backing), so I don't really see why that is any less 'musical' than playing the instruments live?

Thanks anyway, and I'll keep looking for ideas.....



--------------------
PaulF

Quote PaulF:

---

I'm anticipating having to program my own backing tracks from scratch (as i want them to be considerably more than just an 'auto chord' backing), so I don't really see why that is any less 'musical' than playing the instruments live?

---

There's a kind of energy that happens when everyone in a band is listening and reacting to each other, all "driving" the music together. Something quite different happens when there's a track involved. I realise this concept is quite alien to a generation that accepts track-by-track recording, and performance to backing tracks as the norm :-)

Quote PaulF:

---

I'm looking at getting together with a mate and doing a few gigs as a duo.
We're not keen to use 'fixed' backing tracks (as it can lead to issues with changes to song format, or missed verses / lines etc).
I'm looking into alterntive ideas.....

---

I disagree with the comments that it needs to be live, I play in bands thay play live and use backing tracks, and so the notion that "live" always sounds better is simply wrong. There are plenty of poor musicians that play live.

I run the backing tracks from my Fantom G8, which also has an 8 track mixer, and I generally only have augmented tracks, i.e. 2nd guitar, BV's, 2nd keyboards etc.

People on these style threads almost always forget that the punter listening couldn't give a monkey's what you do, whether it's backing track or live, provided it all sounds good. Being a dynamic player, with feel, with an idea of light and shade, doesn't disappear the instant you record them, and therefore if you give some thought about what you're recording, and you don't over egg the cake, it can still sound very good.

Quote TheChorltonWheelie:

---

I disagree with the comments that it needs to be live, I play in bands thay play live and use backing tracks, and so the notion that "live" always sounds better is simply wrong. There are plenty of poor musicians that play live.

---

It's not about poverty. It's about music. Of course there are many who don't give a damn about the source. Do the venue a favour and show them how to set up an iPod instead.

I'm also a consumer of live music and like many others, musicians and otherwise, I'm suspicious of backing tracks. The saturation of culture with Tech led music seems to have left many cold and I'm recently encouraged by a recent upturn in interest in live music having regularly seen the technology abused mercilessly. The last time I saw it done with style was Labi Siffre but he's singing his own songs and has already proved his worth as a creative force.

Where do you put yourself on this spectrum?

--------------------
Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

Great to hear some positive comments about backing tracks vs live.

I think the key factor here is the 'quality' or 'talent' of the musicians involved (and I include the person(s) who create any backing tracks used in the term 'musicians').

I recently played a one off gig with some friends using an arranger keyboard - and at times it was particularly dire (due to many reasons). But the punters all loved it - which proves that most of the audiences out there don't really care how it's done.

On the other hand, I played with a live band last year, and for most of the gigs I would have given anything for a 'metronomic' sequenced bass part over the wildly temporarily innacurate bass player we had to deal with.

So I guess the issue is the overall performance 'good' or 'bad' - how you give the performance in (relatively) immaterial...


Anyway, back to my original issue - I'm still looking for ideas on how to 'perform' 'good' backing tracks....

I can find loads of 'phrase samplers' and other such devices (e.g. MPC, Electribe etc) that are clearly geared towards dance music. They can reproduce phrase samples (audio samples) either by sequence or triggered from midi events.
While I could possibly use these, I don't need audio samples. I could reproduce the music I want using Midi and decent sound modules.
So I'm looking for a 'phrase sequencer' - if there is such a thing?

I want to be able to pre-program midi sequences (phrases, anything from a couple of bars possibly up to 32 bars), and then trigger them from midi events.
Anyone know of any hardware or software that might be able to do this?


(for anyone interested, have a look at this sofware demo:
http://www.circular-logic.com/support/intime-videos.html
if this is half as good as the demo suggests, then it's an awesome piece of coding, and could be really useful in the sort of scenarios i'm looking at)

Thanks!

--------------------
PaulF

The MPC is also a MIDI sequencer or you can find just the sequencer known as the ASQ10. http://www.retrosynth.com/gear/asq10/

The MMT8 used to be popular http://www.mmt8.com/

Yamaha have had a number of different sequencers over the years. http://www.vintagesynth.com/yamaha/qy700.php This is a beast! but they do others such as the QY100 and the QY70. Some of these should be relatively easy to find on eBay. I'm sure there are others as well as synths with built in sequencers, but this isn't my area really.

--------------------
http://soundcloud.com/richie-royale
http://www.mixcrate.com/richieroyale

Thanks for the suggestions...

I'm looking for something more than a simple sequencer - I need phrase sequencing ( to play shorter midi sequences triggered from midi notes).

Looks like the Roland Fantom keyboards have a function on them that might work, but they're not cheap!
My Korg N364 has a crude version of it, but it's not enought for what I need.

I'll keep looking.....

--------------------
PaulF

Just found the Roland MC80 - that might work for me.....

--------------------
PaulF