Just for personal interest, would anybody who is attending one of these courses be able to post up with typical examples of the exam questions / assignments?


Thanks,

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I like people, it's my friends I can't stand - Larry David.
http://www.myspace.com/lodious

Quote Oi Rorbison:

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Just for personal interest, would anybody who is attending one of these courses be able to post up with typical examples of the exam questions / assignments?


Thanks,

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You have a budget of £100,000 design your ideal studio.....blah blah

Are you being serious?

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I like people, it's my friends I can't stand - Larry David.
http://www.myspace.com/lodious

That is quite a common one, actually, yes!

If you are interested in attending a music tech college, you'd be better off writing to your shortlisted colleges for more detailed information abut the standard of course work expected.

Needless to say, the course work and home work is set to test the understanding of the students. Some of that will be based on class work and tutorials, and some will require independent research (of the kind so often posted on this site !)

If you are concerned about whether you will be able to cope, then the answer is almost certainly, yes. If you pay attention, work hard and apply yourself it will almost certainly be within your grasp.

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Is there any engineering content in these courses? I suppose I better clarify that I am partly looking for some evidence that these courses are not a total waste of everybody's time and money. Asking a student to spend a hypothetical sum of money on a Degree level course smacks of 'dumming down' to a level I had not belived possible.

Are there any examples of some more taxing questions?

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I like people, it's my friends I can't stand - Larry David.
http://www.myspace.com/lodious

Quote Oi Rorbison:

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Are there any examples of some more taxing questions?

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Oh yes...

"You have £50,000 to spend equipping a studio - what would you buy?"

"What equipment might you find in a £100,000 studio?"



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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Appart from the Surrey Tonmeister course, these courses are pretty much a waste of time. I know this will have some people run to the battlements, but the situation for audio engineers has become far worse over the past year or so and employers outside thr audio industry (as well as inside!) are completely aware that audio engineering is one of the Mickey Mouse subjects for 99% of all universities.

There used to be a time when any old degree was good enough to get a reasonable start in some branches such as retail or manufacturing. Today, retail means an MBA, manufacturing means an MBA or a pukka engineering degree.

If you are looking for engineering content, may I suggest an electrical engineering or computer science degree.

I am an engineering graduate (Electrical and Electronic) and I have not chosen anything Music related as my career. I am really asking the question as I was talking to my wife last night about education in general, and what path our 2 year old son might like to take in 16 years time. I have noticed the explosion of courses in the back of SOS and it's a bit worrying that we going to have to try to convince him to a 'hard' degree when there are options to do MRT (or similar) at collage.

I have just googled Music Technology Degree and looking at the Coventry University website (chosen at random) it states...

"The UK’s recorded music industry is a significant contributor to society both in terms of the economy and its culture. The music industry generates an estimated £3.6 billion annually for the UK economy and employs some 125,000 people"

This seems to imply that there are lots of prospects for MRT students. I have a friend who has bought a studio as a going concern, and he's struggling. If he had taken three years out of his life and got into £40k's worth of debt to learn valuable skills like "how to spend £100k's worth of cash", he would never be able to pay £40K back and he would have next to no skills to get a decent job.

What is the substance of these degree's? I am not trying to troll, I am just interested to probe and see if there is anything worthwhile in these courses.

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I like people, it's my friends I can't stand - Larry David.
http://www.myspace.com/lodious

Quote Oi Rorbison:

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What is the substance of these degree's? I am not trying to troll, I am just interested to probe and see if there is anything worthwhile in these courses.

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Let's take a few examples I have either come across myself in the last year or so, or have discussed with colleagues in the industry.

One of the biggest issues seems to be narrow courses - either teaching a very myopic corner of knowledge, or application - for example learning to engineer a band is a good set of skills, but live engineering is different, not to mention broadcast, or post. These are all sections of the "industry", and being taught just one specific and potentially non-transferable skills rapidly narrows one's job options. On the other hand, being too general can have the opposite effect - you end up unqualified for anything except making coffee, and that's a rare job these days since Gaggia took over the world...

Look at it from the MI vs Pro perspective in these very forums - common questions such as "Which is the best interface/plugin/amp" - fatuous questions with little basis in the real world, as if a pro appears suggesting companies such as Prism, Harrison, Lawo et al, they're often met with bemusement, as the casual MI user has never heard of such things. No, the world does not revolve around Pro Tools, any more than you "won't" find Behringer in "pro" studios.

Then we have the perennial "which is the best DAW" which should always be, but never is, tempered with "for music/media/broadcast/editing" - there's an enormous gulf between real-world usage and the hobbyists, and many course exacerbate this by preaching the word of ProTools, which wouldn't be of much use to someone going in to broadcast, or training in Q-bass, Cuebase, Qbase, Kewbase, and all its variations for someone wanting to work in post... What about the users of Pyramix, Dream, Sadie, Soundscape and other such prominent platforms that are continually ignored or dismissed as irrelevant by those who are divorced from reality by either casual use, or having been outside of the industry for 10/15/200 years.


How about some specifics:

Pro-Tools Certified Engineer - splendid, so you're "qualified" to operate a piece of software. Well that'd be good if it were a driving licence and you were planning on being a courier, but there's a whole lot more to engineering that knowing how to use one single piece of software. Learning to plug in a mic for example. Moreover, what happens if shock, horror, you come across one of those non "industry standard" platforms like Nuendo.... or Pyramix.... or Sadie?? Where also did that course tell you how to solder? How to trace a groundloop?

Institutional arrogance - worryingly common. "I'm a qualified engineer"... yep maybe you are, but how much experience do you have? The student life, attractive as it is, tend to involve wine, women and very little song. The leaders in all sides of the engineering industry are there because they have a wealth of experience which is impossible to manufacture in a classroom. However, the student that escews booze and wenching for hours fiddling in studio downtime will go far, even if they never learned how to properly solder an XLR. Sadly it seems many graduates think they know it all, when in reality they should see it as a springboard to more learning.

In fact, that perhaps is the point. A double-maths graduate with heady career prospects in the city will not be handed a £3billion hedge fund on their first day - they'll be asked to shadow a trusted, more experienced partner for a while, and perhaps allowed to play with low-risk investments. The same goes for an audio engineer or composer - no one is going to hand you Ridley Scott's epic on day one and ask you to post / score it - despite any qualifications you may or may not have, you are an unknown quantity, and have yet to prove to the industry you can be trusted, relied upon and can deliver the goods. So maybe they'll let you track it. Or make the tea.

Welcome to the biz.... even the tea boy gets envy from the wannabes, but at least he's in that room...

So these courses have their place - but not as a endgame: chosen carefully, they provide sterling service as a grounding in the field, but by no way do they, or could they ever be a guarantee of a job in a fickle industry. The business mixes technical capability with creative genius - the former can be taught, the latter comes with experience, and that can only ever be learned from the university of life.

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Ars longa, vita brevis, occasio praeceps, experimentum periculosum, iudicium difficile.

Quote thenaturallevel:

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You have a budget of £100,000 design your ideal studio.....blah blah

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This is the sort of question written by lazy, incompetent lecturers who aren't doing their job properly. You WON'T get a question like this if you pick a GOOD Music Technology degree.

I'm doing a Music Technology degree and have never had a question like that ever set! If I did I think my course leader would be very interested to hear about it.

Summative Papers/Questions/Assignments I have been set in the past:

Discuss the impact technology has had on electronic music for both composition, performance and dissemination.

Discuss two contrasting methods of computer synthesis, providing examples of compositions that use them.

The aim of the task is to experiment with various techniques and equipment
designed to overcome issues associated with location recording. The
objective is to achieve audio recordings that capture specific environments
whilst preserving high quality sound outside a controlled environment. Issues
such as wind and ambient noise, battery powered equipment, pick-up patterns
and capabilities of microphones specially designed for location recording are
explored.

It's difficult to provide examples as a massive amount of my course is practical work backed up by written documentation.

SJ.

I just happen to know Salford Uni's assignments.

1st Year:
-Location live to 2 track recording
-Composition made entirely of synthesised sounds (no samples etc)
-Studio live to 2 track band recording
-Studio solo recordings of various instruments

2nd Year:
-Full Overdub studio recording/mix etc
-Composition sampling assignment only using sounds created by the manipulation of paper.
- record a radio play
- film soundtrack (music/foley/fx etc)

3 yr:
portfolio stuff, overdubs, remixes, location and studio live to multitrack recordings, "studio" compositions, more film stuff

ta,

Bulley

Quote The Red Bladder:

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Appart from the Surrey Tonmeister course, these courses are pretty much a waste of time.

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Poor old LIPA forgotten again!

LIPA's sound technology course had a more varied cirriculum (not to say that the Tonmeister course isnt any good!). Surrey's course is very focused on churning out very good studio engineers with a greater degree of knolwege in music and elctronics, while LIPA develops a larger range of skills like live sound, radio, film. What seems to happen each year at LIPA the graduates are well spread out across the various sound professions, which is a good thing because the industry can only support a few each year! Having said that apparently Tonmeister gets a lot of people into sound for film...

Anyway those two are your best bets, probably followed by a electronics and music tech course, like at york, salford, and the new audio engineering course at Surrey itself (by the way Guilford is a lovely town, though Liverpool is a bit more exciting, especially when your walking home by yourself one in the morning!).

Anyway back to what you were asking. In LIPA's first semester you:

Do two recordings, one on a multitrack machine and one in Pro Tools (though you have a choice over the second one if you dont like Pro Tools)

Do a remix of one of these recordings in Pro Tools

Organise and engineer a mid sized gig

And also essays, exams and those thrilling excel spreadsheets!

Basically the assignments make sure they put into practice everything you learn over the course of the lectures and workshops, so look at the module descriptions on the LIPA website.

When I was at university, though that was a long time ago and things were quite rigourous in those days, universities made past papers available, which was very kind of them, as the same questions used to be recycled, and probably had a life cycles of about 3 years - although the more canny professors used to throw in a new one every now and again to throw us off the scent!

Quote arctichare:

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Quote thenaturallevel:

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You have a budget of £100,000 design your ideal studio.....blah blah

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Discuss the impact technology has had on electronic music for both composition, performance and dissemination.

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I'm struggling to see how the latter question is any 'better' than the first - both are blandly non-specific and lazily open ended in scope. Blimey, but I'm getting old - it was better in my day....

What about "Discuss the impact technology has had on electronic music"

The Sonic Arts Research Centre in Queen's University, Belfast, is a pretty cool place. If you have a look at their site, you can see examples of projects they're doing, research papers, and information about the content of their MA and PhD programs.

Quote arctichare:

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This is the sort of question written by lazy, incompetent lecturers who aren't doing their job properly.

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Possibly surprisingly, this is one I have to disagree on -- despite all the amusement such questions often generate. In fact, it think it would be possible to tell a very great deal about the student's knowledge, experience and potential from the answer to such a question...

Sometimes an open ended question can be more revealing...

It's way too early to be thinking about universities for your son. The whole system will probably have changed in the next 16 years at last twice anyway! But if he is academically talented there will be courses to suit, and if he's not, there will be vocational things he can do. Just as it is now.

Personally, I'm not a big fan of the vocational style of music tech courses most colleges seem to be offering. Most graduates are not flexible enough to be employable (IMHO). A more solid engineering-based degree is still, to my way of thinking, a better foundation upon which to build specific vocational practices. If you understand the technology and can apply that knowledge practically, you can turn your hand to anything. If all you know is how to drive PT, say, you're a bit limited when the firm buys something else!

hugh


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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

or their ability to hoodwink the info out of forums like these

OR their ability to read.







whihc I sometimes wonder about.... literacy . acoomand of the english language is beginning to appear as optional for some avenues...... WTF???????

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if you don't know who i am, i aint gonna tell you.

I think this is not only an interesting discussion, but also a pretty good resource about education options. Anyone else think it should be made sticky?

I have to agree with Hugh here.

A MRT degree narrows the employment path considerably whereas an engineering degree leaves the field wide open.

I think the issue is not so much the standard of education provided, although a high percentage are a waste of time, but whether this industry can provide and sustain any employment opportunities.

In it's current state, and the past 10-15 years, the answer would be an emphatic no.

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Samplecraze
Stretch That Note

I must admit, I am not convinced that MRT degrees offer much to students (apart from 3 years partying away from home ). At least a decent engineering degree will have some value (even if you don't persue a career in engineering). If the level of question /assignment is similar to the ones outline in this thread, I would expect that at 'o' level, not degree level.

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I like people, it's my friends I can't stand - Larry David.
http://www.myspace.com/lodious

Some of the opinions voiced on this thread clearly show that those outside the industry have a complete misconception of the way any audio studio is run and what gos on there.

Somehow, they assume that the equipment magically beams into the workplace. It connects itself up with cables that descend from heaven and it repairs itself at the same time, whenever it goes wrong. They assume that all music is rock-n-roll or pop and that every musician plays by ear only. They assume that every studio uses ProTools HD and nothing else and the only instruments they have to worry about are guitars, keys and drums.

Here are some facts that the would-be students and their lecturers might like to allow to sink in -

Most studios do NOT use ProTools as their main recording system. Logic, Sadie, Soundscape, Radar in that order are (combined) more important. Then add other systems like Euphonix and Fairlight and you see that a knowledge of just one system is bad news.

ProTools market share is sinking fairly rapidly (-10% p.a.)

Most material recorded in professional studios is not rock-pop music. Expect to send as much time doing classical and film music, as R+R.

Nearly all studios require some level of in-house maintenance from their engineers. The larger ones have their own maintenance guys, the medium ones expect the staff to be able to test and repair most items.

Nearly all studios do all their own cable work. The budget just ain't there for a studio of any size to call some Cables-R-Us and order 24 looms at £120 a loom.

About 20% of all professional recording work requires the engineer to follow a score, either during recording or editing, or both.

Nearly all studios install and maintain their own computer networks. Today, this is usually a collection of ethernet and wi-fi for moving big chunks of audio around the building.

Amateurs in any field often imagine that somehow the professional does things the same way they do. That somehow the professional working environment is just a larger and better quality version of what they do. Just as the amateur photographer imagines that the professional just has a bigger and better camera, the home movie maker assumes that broadcasters just have bigger and better cameras and the amateur carpenter has a bigger and better wood-shop, the amateur home recording enthusiast assumes that Abby, Air, etc., just are bigger versions of what he does at home.

They are not.

They think differently and they work differently.

If your college course does not teach you to perform the tasks I have outlined above, don't expect to fit into a professional working environment.

There does seem to be a general misconception, and rather outdated view, about what some music technology courses seek to do these days.

I know courses that explicitly do not teach 'audio engineering' or 'how to operate Poor Tools', rather their remit is to enable students to acquire as flexible a skill set as possible, thus preparing them to work independently in a rapidly changing industry. Some courses actually keep abreast of contemporary working practices and tailor their syllabi to suit.

Some courses tackle the question of music technology from the point of view of the composer/performer - you know the type of person who might leave with a qualification (say a joint honours with Music and Music Tech) and have a modest setup at home, but nevertheless make good money doing ads, music for games, a bit of mobile recording, some teaching here and there, a bit of sound design, some programming, the odd production session.

I mean, who would want to sit in a studio all day pushing buttons and moving sliders making someone else's crap music sound vaguely reasonable, when you could be doing your own music, making decent money and all from the comfort of your home studio?

Horses for courses.

Cheers

Quote Max!:

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whihc I sometimes wonder about.... literacy . acoomand of the english language is beginning to appear as optional for some avenues...... WTF???????

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Hmmm.

Incorrectly spelled words, poor use of punctuation, lack of capital letters where appropriate and an example of 'contemporary' abbreviation. All this in a post complaining about the drop in standards of literacy.

I did music tech and never got one of those questions. Maybe at GCSE but not degree.

Example 2nd year question

"Using the Stienberg SDK, research and implement a fully working VST plug-in in C++ that Implements dynamic gain control on an incoming signal" (compressor)

"Write a 1500 word report that details exactly how the plug-in works."

Many people built a simple limiter with no controls and got a pass. Wheras more advanced peeps might implement threshold,ratio controls etc. for better grades.

Other modules included modular programming to model real acoustic spaces including researching the characteristics of rooms scientifically and attempting to copy this using chaos algorythms etc. Advanced synthasis etc.

Quote The Red Bladder:

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...the amateur home recording enthusiast assumes that Abby, Air, etc., just are bigger versions of what he does at home.

They are not.

They think differently and they work differently.

If your college course does not teach you to perform the tasks I have outlined above, don't expect to fit into a professional working environment.

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Yes, very well put, but doesnt this fact give the game away on the colleges? They are there for just that, for enthusiasts.

I think you have to go there expecting to learn how to use an expensive home studio. My friends son did one, has a job in the industry now. But poor old mate is coughing big time for the home studio... boy 'has to have' pro-tools, of course... and a desk and all those really expensive plug-ins that dont work on anything else

Quote reid:

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Quote Max!:

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whihc I sometimes wonder about.... literacy . acoomand of the english language is beginning to appear as optional for some avenues...... WTF???????

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Hmmm.

Incorrectly spelled words, poor use of punctuation, lack of capital letters where appropriate and an example of 'contemporary' abbreviation. All this in a post complaining about the drop in standards of literacy.

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There was a time when Max could spell and punctuate, but as the years encroach upon him . . . well, you get the idea. Poor old thing!

But you raise an important point here - a position that requires an academic qualification, also requires 100% correct spelling and grammar. This is especially true at the beginning of a career, where the employer has little track record to go on. There are no exceptions to this rule - if you do not know the difference between were, where and we're; their, there and they're, or between due to and owing to, you are blowing yourself out of the water before you have even started. You are sending the employer two important messages: one - you have a poor education, two - you pay little attention to detail.

And the process of recording is ALL about detail!

Quote Rousseau:

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There does seem to be a general misconception, and rather outdated view, about what some music technology courses seek to do these days.

I know courses that explicitly do not teach 'audio engineering' or 'how to operate Poor Tools', rather their remit is to enable students to acquire as flexible a skill set as possible, thus preparing them to work independently in a rapidly changing industry. Some courses actually keep abreast of contemporary working practices and tailor their syllabi to suit.

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I'm guessing here - you are one of these people, earning a living by pulling the wool over these kids eyes.

I get them as interns. They come here, unable to solder, unable to read a circuit diagram, unable to use an oscilloscope or even a simple multimeter, unable to trouble-shoot a computer, unable to even read a score.

In other words, they received an education in something, but, whatever that something was, it did not include music or technology.

We see them everywhe. They're so used to the high end kit that universities and colleges seem to "have to have" that they've no idea how to use the it they'll find in the real world in venues and smal studios that they're most likely to get into. They don't know how to get a decent sound out of, say, a Soundcraft Series 2, but can produce something resembling good sound out of a Midas H3000 or a nice Audient.
The rest of the world, of course, functions with A&H, Soundcraft and Herr Behringer's finest - and these degreed hopefuls can't cope.
More, they can't solder, can't follow a loom, seem to have no clue about the work ethic and don't understand the word deadline to any meaningful degree.
In other words, they've all got to be re-trained locally anyway.

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[url=http://www.facebook.com/pages/hifi-studios/117322741632389[/url]

I think we might be in danger of excessive generalisation here. There are intellectually and academically rigourous courses around. There are courses with a high engineering content, and others with good music content. While many may be perceived as lacking, not all are -- and we should be careful not to whitewash the entire industry unfairly.

Having said that -- and having toured a large number of colleges around the country with my SOS hat on (some very good, some obviously poor, many in the mid ground) -- I am concerned at the lack of practical skills I see being taught. There often seems to be a noticable bias towards doing everything in software and using the expensive tools, without (apparently) covering key basics like logical fault finding, safe rigging, and critical mic placement.

But that's not just a college issue. I sat in on a session at a well known London studio a while back where the lack of knowledge and understanding of basic issues was frightening, and when a (to me) obvious cabling fault was eventually recognised, it was a scene of headless chickens trying to locate the problem and fix it -- little logical thought involved and no team work at all. And these were supposedly experienced engineers/producers in a high end studio. I've failed people off BBC training courses for showing a similar level of ineptitude!

Dumbing down is a problem that exists not just in education, but across entire industries -- and not just ours. It is a very serious problem indeed.

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

THIS ANSWER IS FROM MY PERSPECTIVE AS A PRODUCER/ENGINEER WORKING IN THE MUSIC INDUSTRY

Hugh's perspective is bourne out by my experience of this. I want a technical engineer who understands physics and electronics. Clearly they will be a music fan too or they wouldn't be there.

Why?

If I'm hiring an assistant engineer *which is basically the target role for an engineering course graduate looking to make pop/rock records for a living* I'm looking for certain things:

1. I want them to understand the various ways in which box A connects to box B.

2. I want them to understand how to set up mics on appropriate stands, connect them to a preamp and ensure that the pre is correctly connected to the relevant input on whatever I'm recording on. I need them to know the technical differences between the various types of microphone and how to not break them.

3. I want them to have a good set of ears and an opinion!

4. I want them to know Pro Tools. If you work in music recording it is still ubiquitous. We are using it, as is almost everyone else, and we will almost certainly continue to do so for a long while yet. I'm not going to go into the reasons why here. There's no reason why someone shouldn't be able to learn the basics on LE. If they also understand tape machines, Radar and a couple of other DAW's thats fantastic but I'll still hire them if they don't and I wont hire them if they dont know PT. Simple.

I DO NOT NEED

1. Someone who has produced their own album of dance music. We're not working on their record and they almost certainly wont be asked to do much creative programming. If they can do that stuff and it's required for a project then at some stage down the line we can get them involved in that side, but it's not what I need from my assistant.

2. Someone who necessarily knows where to put mics. We'll do that stuff together and they'll very quickly learn on the job. If they understand the technical engineering physics, they'll find this stuff easy to understand.

3. Someone who knows how to program a plug in. Why would I need that?

4. Someone who knows how to spend £500k.

5. Someone who understands the industry...who cares? They're not there to comment on the industry. They'll learn more about it in the course of their work than they will have done through the course of their course.


So what does this mean? It means that if I'm hiring an assistant for the work I do, it doesn't really matter to me that they've done a course. The things I need them to understand coming in, they could have learnt at home in the course of a month or two.

Clearly there may well be jobs within the industry which would be more suited to a graduate. What I actually think though, is that these courses prepare you more to go out as a freelance producer than an assistant, and seeing as no-one hires a freelance producer with no experience it's a tricky one.

My verdict: A lot of these courses are a waste of time and money. If you're on one, work out what you want to do afterwards and make sure you concentrate on the things the course will offer that you really need. Forget making music. Get your technical stuff right and the making music will all come to you later.

J

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www.jackruston.com

Quote The Producer Formerly Known As Jack:

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THIS ANSWER IS FROM MY PERSPECTIVE AS A PRODUCER/ENGINEER WORKING IN THE MUSIC INDUSTRY

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Again, all very pertinent and relevant stuff.

The only thing I'd comment on is:

Quote:

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3. I want them to have a good set of ears and an opinion!

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But with the social skills to know when to voice that opinion and when to stay quiet!

The thing that worries me with the Pro Tools thing -- and I accept that it remains a very common tool in the music industry -- is when people are only taught PT. I think most colleges now include Logic and Cubase or Nuendo, and that's important. The more systems you have knowledge of, the easier it is to find your way around and think through alternative ways to do something.

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Ahhhhh


Given that so many studios are staffed by men of various ages, yuuufffs to fogies,
surely the ONLY criteria is that Music Tech courses should Only be open to nubile & virile Ladies




But Seriously ... as Mr In The Air Tonight said ....



At the end it does boil down to the individual.


There are people who did english lit, history, philosophy heck even theology, and went on to be IT consultants, management consultants, nw engineers.


If they are going make something of their career and working life,
it doesn matter if they did a degree in soup making, they'll find a way.


On the flip side there are peeps with Phds up to their eyeballs, who have just drfited away.


(I did do a BEng in a department that had that uber audio dude Prof Malcolm J Omar Hawksford,
and have I used Any of it ..... No )

Quote table for two:

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Ahhhhh


Given that so many studios are staffed by men of various ages, yuuufffs to fogies,
surely the ONLY criteria is that Music Tech courses should Only be open to nubile & virile Ladies ...

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I think that you alone had the courage to say what everyone else was thinking there T42...

All that other stuff is BS. What you need bending around, leaning over and stretching for things in your studio, is a tight jersied beauty! ... who makes a mean cup of tea...

Quote The Red Bladder:

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Quote Rousseau:

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There does seem to be a general misconception, and rather outdated view, about what some music technology courses seek to do these days.

I know courses that explicitly do not teach 'audio engineering' or 'how to operate Poor Tools', rather their remit is to enable students to acquire as flexible a skill set as possible, thus preparing them to work independently in a rapidly changing industry. Some courses actually keep abreast of contemporary working practices and tailor their syllabi to suit.

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I'm guessing here - you are one of these people, earning a living by pulling the wool over these kids eyes.

I get them as interns. They come here, unable to solder, unable to read a circuit diagram, unable to use an oscilloscope or even a simple multimeter, unable to trouble-shoot a computer, unable to even read a score.

In other words, they received an education in something, but, whatever that something was, it did not include music or technology.

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I'm sorry but it's patently obvious that you didn't read a single word I wrote. You dismiss out of hand a sector of higher education which, as your argumentation amply demonstrates, you know very little about.

Let me reiterate, there are courses that do not attempt nor profess to train audio engineers, sound engineers or fader monkeys. Instead some institutions have actually realised that there's little or no point training students in these sorts of skills because the industry (such as it is these days) doesn't need them.

Far better to try to mould an individual who can compose in a range of styles, perform, mix and produce their own music if they need to, synthesize and design their own sounds, create viable sample sets, location record etc, than have one who can use an overpriced and overrated PT rig and a soldering iron in a nice studio which is in terminal decline.

These types of courses are not explicitly vocational and as such they resemble other degree level courses such as fine art, music, history, philosophy etc.

Cheers

Rousseau I think you're right in that that is what they're trying to do...but I think that 1. A lot of places are doing this because it's cheaper than buying in the hardware to train people to use big desks etc and 2. The sort of 'media' jobs that these one-man-band producers are suited to are almost as over-subscribed as the studio assistant jobs.

It just depends what people want to do...if you want to make records, with bands you need a studio...not necessarily a desk, not necessarily a tape machine...and ok, not necessarily pro tools (unless of course you want to finish on time ) but you do need some sort of studio environment. A place to record. Mics, stands, pre's, wiring, headphone circuits, acoustic treatment etc etc etc. The big 'make a record in your bedroom' thing is very misleading indeed. It's worked for a very small number of projects, and a lot of those have 'home' studios that exist in most our wildest dreams.

So ok...you have courses that are teaching people to write, compose, record and mix their work...The obvious concern is that people are then paying for a course which teaches or attempts to teach them to do something which they could probably learn for themselves in a similar time frame without spending any money, and that they then have a qualification which is not of the slightest significance to anyone who might consider employing them. Lets face it, they'd be better off taking that X grand that they spent on the course and using it to take advertising creatives out to the pub in soho. When you add in the fact that no other employer will really take the course as serious evidence of any work having been done, regardless of whether it was or not, you have a slightly sorry state of affairs.

I think there is a need for aspiring writers, composers and musicians to learn best engineering practice in order to move themselves forwards. My question is, why should they pay for this when they can learn it right here in the pages of the SOS forum. At least they wont be subject to the whims of whichever 'engineer' happens to be teaching the course.

J

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www.jackruston.com

This thread is fairly relevant to me. That is, I've been putting a lot of thought into what I'm going to do after I've completed my Chemical Engineering degree at the end of next year, and audio production is seeming very appealing - at least in terms of interest, not necessarily feasibility.

I did consider the "degrees" discussed in this thread, but not only are they expensive, it would appear that they are fairly useless and simply not worth the money.

OK, so people (some of which are professionals, it would appear) in this thread have discussed what is needed in the professional workplace, and have complained about what is wrong with the (supposed) education offered.

Great, so now that we've established what's wrong and what I shouldn't do to get into the field, can someone tell me what I should do? Where can I get this experience from? I know I've got a long way to go, but where do I start?

Get a job as a Chemical Engineer, go contracting after 3 years, earn a pile of cash, enjoy music as a hobby and teach yourself MRT in the evenings and buy a studio when you have enough money?

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I like people, it's my friends I can't stand - Larry David.
http://www.myspace.com/lodious

Quote Lodious:

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Get a job as a Chemical Engineer, go contracting after 3 years, earn a pile of cash, enjoy music as a hobby and teach yourself MRT in the evenings and buy a studio when you have enough money?

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If you really want, but you could still spend three years of your life learning about something you really enjoy doing, get a job in a semi-realted/unrelated feild, granted not earn as much, still enjoy music as a hobby and sail through life that way. Money cant buy happiness, and from the persepective of someone who struggled with chemistry GCSE (though I pulled it up to an A in line with the rest of my sciences in the end) having to learn degree level chemistry is not my idea of three years of fun!

Its deffinatley not the right idea for a lot of people, especially those who dont really care, feel they have to go to university (or want to go so they dont have to work for three more years) and wont put the effort in. Its deffinatley not the right idea for people whose real interests and abilities can be used somewhere else. But its a decent option for those with the will to work, the realism to know they wont get work in a studio (a friend of mine even stated he wanted to get a job in a studio so he could get paid to do nothing, ha!). And some of them might even get where they really want to be.

To the thread starter, most music tech courses are not computing or electronic engineering courses, and therefore do not have the in depth technical assignments to match! They will however test a lot of things in just as much depth .

There are deffinatley some dodgy courses out there in music tech, however im sure there are a lot of dodgy courses in engineering and science discaplines too. The difference is there are jobs in those areas, a lot of them too, so employers are more willing to spent time getting everyone up to speed. A graduate recruitment programme in a recording studio? Get out! The difference is only the best of the best of the studio engineers will get a job.

Well, Lodious, I must admit, your logic is undeniable.

However, simply owning a studio doesn't teach you what you actually need to know as a professional, does it? And you say "teach yourself MRT in the evenings". Well, that's kind of what I'm doing now when I can, but my self-teaching lacks direction.

As a point of discussion, let's ignore my specific situation and look at a general case. Where would one actually learn this stuff?