This crops up now and then, but I'm really interested in a focussed discussion from people who have used these mics side by side at the "coal face".

When Hugh reviewed the TLM103 ( here ) he reckoned they were very similar with such statements as:

"In terms of the overall sound quality and usability, the TLM103 is virtually indistinguishable from a good U87, except that it is quieter and has a greater dynamic range".

and

"Compared side-by-side with a standard U87, which had enjoyed a typically varied life, I preferred the brand-new TLM103 with its slight edge in terms of clarity and subtlety. However, the two mics exhibited very similar characters indeed, and I would be inclined to put the few small differences down to the age gap between them rather than anything more fundamental".

I've owned a TLM103 for a number of years and find it an excellent choice on some vocalists, especially female. However, whilst it's often the mic I'll put up first in front of a vocalist, it often doesn't hit the spot and a few recent experiences have me reviewing its status:

I had a client in the other day who bought their own U87. Whilst I didn't have a chance to do a direct comparison, I felt it was warmer with perhaps a silkier top end than the TLM103, and I think it's the rather hard top end of the TLM103 that lets it down on some voices.

I was in at Radio New Zealand the other, place was littered with U87s, they threw one up on an acoustic guitar - instant gratification and not something I'd expect from a TLM103 (these could be 'old' mics though).

Now I've been asked to record a vocalist and a U87 has been specified (to give consistency with tracks that have already been recorded in London). Her producer (whose opinion I very much respect) reckons the U87 is his mic of choice for most vocalists.

Whilst I could hire one for this project, I have been considering purchasing a higher end mic for general purpose vocal duties and could potentially on-sell the TLM103.

As I said before, whilst I usually put the TLM103 up first, I often end up using my AKG C414 TLII (a little hyped) or a TLM193 (slightly dark for vocals) in preference.

Bob

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www.bickerton.co.nz

My personal opinion is that the TLM103 sounded "boring" compared to the U87. The U87 has a fuller mid-range and a silkier top end than the TLM103, at least to my ears.

When I first heard the TLM103 in my studio, I was very disappointed as I expected a lot more from the mic. I sent it back.

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James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

I find the TLM103 is very similar in many ways to the U87Ai, but they aren't the same -- and older versions of the U87 are different again and much smoother sounding.

The bottom end of the two current mics is more or less the same to my ears, but the top end is a little different. The 103's HF lift starts a tad lower and carries on to a higher frequency. That's proably why you think the U87 is silkier at the top -- it's not as extended.

But the polar pattern on the 103 narrows considerably at the high end, so I find twisting the mic or tilting it slightly off axis helps to control the top end to get the sound you want.

Given an open budget, I'd prefer to own vintage U87s, but the TLM103 is still a useful workhorse, particularly on male vocals.

The 193 is a totally different beast again, much darker sounding, as is the TLM170 -- much more 'traditional' Neumann sounding large diaphragm mics.

I don't understand why Neumann and Sennheiser (and several other manufacturers) have a bee in their bonnet about making modern mics so bright and shrill -- but they do. It's very frustrating!

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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I find the TLM103 is very similar in many ways to the U87Ai, but they aren't the same -- and older versions of the U87 are different again and much smoother sounding.

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I've had old and new U87 (old silver U87, new black U87Ai) together in my studio a couple of times now and I still can't hear any significant difference! Any chance we could maybe do an A/B (happy to bring my Ai) on the mic placement course day? I'm keen to train my ears if there's something I'm missing!

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Quote The Elf:

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I've had old and new U87 (old silver U87, new black U87Ai) together in my studio a couple of times now and I still can't hear any significant difference!

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Are you sure that the silver U87 was old enough? The old ones are usually labelled U87 P48 and, in my experience, they sound very different to the U87Ai.

Cheers

James.

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JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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I find the TLM103 is very similar in many ways to the U87Ai, but they aren't the same -- and older versions of the U87 are different again and much smoother sounding.

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Smooth sounds good. Now I'm wondering if there's a modern Neumann that may exhibit the 'smoother' characteristic of the older U87.

Would it be premature to ask if you've listened to the new TLM67?

Cheers

Bob

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www.bickerton.co.nz

Quote Bob Bickerton:

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Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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I find the TLM103 is very similar in many ways to the U87Ai, but they aren't the same -- and older versions of the U87 are different again and much smoother sounding.

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Smooth sounds good. Now I'm wondering if there's a modern Neumann that may exhibit the 'smoother' characteristic of the older U87.

Would it be premature to ask if you've listened to the new TLM67?

Cheers

Bob

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I Know I am so fxcking predictable:
Gefell UMT70

I also have a 103
Its just like Hugh says and is a bit harsh for me
The Gefell is really a lot closer to the old U87 though doesn't have quite as much "chestiness" in the mids

Bob - if you weren't directly on the other side of the world I'd lend it to you

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Matt
www.krcollective.org

Edited by matt keen (20/11/08 11:21 AM)

it's a good excuse for a holiday, ain't it?

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hourglass | random thoughts | doubledotdash!? collective

Quote James Perrett:

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Quote The Elf:

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I've had old and new U87 (old silver U87, new black U87Ai) together in my studio a couple of times now and I still can't hear any significant difference!

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Are you sure that the silver U87 was old enough? The old ones are usually labelled U87 P48 and, in my experience, they sound very different to the U87Ai.

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Ta. A reasonable question, but I'm afraid I don't know. I'm working again with the 'name' who owns the older U87 soon, so I'll be sure to check it.

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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I don't understand why Neumann and Sennheiser (and several other manufacturers) have a bee in their bonnet about making modern mics so bright and shrill -- but they do. It's very frustrating!

Hugh

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I take it you mean that the U87ai is shrill? I heard some say with digital recording being able to give us more top end (compared to reel to reel of the 70's) many mic manuf. are coming out with mic's that give us more top end. In fact all the Chinese made (the ones I have heard), part Chinese mic's (Charter Oak for instance), Brauner, Rode, Blue, all have mic's that give extended top end to their mic's compared to the older mic's. (Of course we don't want brittle top end either). I don't have a problem with that as long as you counter act the brightness in your recording chain with more colored pre's, EQ's and or compressors. For instance a 87ai with a Neve EQ, or LA2-A (Plug ins will do for us regular guys). I would not want a U87ai with a SSL pre and EQ as you are putting too much of a clean and bright character (ying with no yang) to keep it balanced. On the opposite side, if you use a more colored mic like a Telefunken AK47 you may want an SSL EQ or some other open clean compressor to work with it.

I know the KM184 has more top end than the older KM84 and some like one over the other. I had the assumption the same was with the U87 and U87ai. However I have heard some engineers say the newer ai has a honky mid range and many have taken the mic to be modified as they feel the character is not as desirable as the older one's. Is the comparison of the KM84 vs KM184 the same in your eyes as the U87 vrs U87ai or do you also feel something is missing or something negative had been added to the newer capsule?

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revelationsoundstudio.com

Think xfmr.

The TLM103 (I have one) lacks an output xfmr which is an instant turn off for vocals, they just sound too brittle.

It's def. my least used mic.

Trebor

Quote Trebor Flow:

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Think xfmr.

The TLM103 (I have one) lacks an output xfmr which is an instant turn off for vocals, they just sound too brittle.

It's def. my least used mic.

Trebor

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If you want to stay in the price range of the TLM 103, I A/B a Blue Blueberry against it and to me it was a more pleasing sounding mic for the following reasons.
1. It has a transformer in it (all TLM mic's are transformerless though the U87 and ie have a transformer) which adds a little more weight in the low end. I found this very useful not only for female vocals but for many male vocalist including myself.
2. Top end was had more sparkle while still not being harsh.
3. It has a great metal pop filter for it, and it comes in a nice wooden box with plush material inside. Bascially the same price in the States compared to the TLM 103.

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revelationsoundstudio.com

Edited by Glenn Bucci (20/11/08 02:21 PM)

Quote Glenn Bucci:

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I heard some say with digital recording being able to give us more top end (compared to reel to reel of the 70's) many mic manuf. are coming out with mic's that give us more top end.

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I've heard this too, and yet in many other areas of the recording chain manufacturers strive to give us that 'warm vintage' sound as a sort of sonic antidote to digital clarity.

I'm surprised this hasn't been reflected with mic manufacturers offering 'warmer' rather than 'brighter' options.

Bob

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www.bickerton.co.nz

Quote matt keen:

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Bob - if you weren't directly on the other side of the world I'd lend it to you

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I'd give you a lift from the local airport if that would help?

Bob

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www.bickerton.co.nz

Quote Bob Bickerton:

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Quote Glenn Bucci:

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I heard some say with digital recording being able to give us more top end (compared to reel to reel of the 70's) many mic manuf. are coming out with mic's that give us more top end.

---

I've heard this too, and yet in many other areas of the recording chain manufacturers strive to give us that 'warm vintage' sound as a sort of sonic antidote to digital clarity.

I'm surprised this hasn't been reflected with mic manufacturers offering 'warmer' rather than 'brighter' options.

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The "warmer" options *are* there in the shape of mics like the Neumann TLM 67 and TLM 49.


But - to pick up the other point in the thread........

An extended top end does not necessarily mean a bright top end - it just means that the frequency response extends beyond 20kHz.



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John - Sound-Link ProAudio
President - Federation Internationale des Chasseurs de Sons