A couple of weeks ago a spare Mac Pro of mine that I keep overseas (and is a clone of my main studio machine) died. So I thought in the interests of portability and driving the economy towards full health - I’d get a new Mac Mini Server.
First of all, from what I can gather, any new mac you buy from now on will work only with Lion. AND YOU CANNOT EVER run Snow Leopard on it. Think about that. Every update of every piece of computer hardware in its history has allowed some degree of backwards compatibility until now. That apparently ends with all new computers from the Mac Mini 2011 onwards. Lion comes installed and even if you partition a part of the HD or a spare HD and install SL via target mode with another mac, it will never boot from it. I have a number of more dedicated mac/hacker friends scouring the forums for a hack to get SL into a new generation of Mac, but at the moment it looks (for anything other than a total hardcore hacker geek prepared to re-programme Boot RAMs etc) completely un-doable.

This is a truly baffling decision on Apple’s part.

Given that Lion is from what I can see not that much of a major leap forward and that given the large number of third party plug-ins I use not one manufacturer currently has any Lion tested versions of their software available, and Spectrasonics even go so far as to actively advise people to avoid Lion at this stage, surely all this is going to do is drive up the price of second had Macs. I mean seriously, how many pro-users would make the leap to a new machine if the vast majority of their third party software is currently un-supported?

The slightly better news is that having spent three days doing a full clean install of my studio computer onto the mac-mini I can report that if you are prepared to be patient and accept a few annoying loses, it does seem to work. And it's very fast. And stable.
The biggest problem is that Lion won’t run any Power PC applications. So if you use any plug-ins older than about 5 years, you had better hope there are some fairly up to date installers available or it will never work. Frustratingly sometimes the plug-in will install, but the extra bit of software that (for example locates the plug-in’s sound files, or authorizes it) will have some Power PC element to it that simply will never work on your system. Ever.

Also mysteriously Lion decides to hide your User/Library folder. It even hides it from finder’s ‘Go’ drop down menu unless you hold down SHIFT whist pressing GO. Once you can see it there, you can drag it into the finder’s side bar, but it resolutely refuses to appear in the HD/User folder.
Apple seriously WHAT THE [ ****** ] is that about?
And Lion won’t run anything but the very latest version of Logic 9 and if you run it in 64bit mode it won’t run Audio Unit validation on anything. Except a couple of plug-ins it appears happy to validate. Everything else it just pretends you’ve never installed. Baffling.

So at the end of the three days I have installed 90% of my studio system and to its credit the new Mac Mini Server is an awesome piece of compact and powerful hardware but it hasn’t been exactly a smooth ride because of 10.7 and before you buy anything from Apple in future make sure your beloved plug-ins will be Lion friendly, because if the Lion isn’t happy there is NO TURNING BACK.

I hate to say this because I’ve been drinking the Apple cool-aid for many years and been the Mac’s most vocal apologist, but if I was a cynical man I’d say this whole LION-only path smells very much of the iPad-ification of the company. If you factor in the titanic corporate embarrassment that was Final Cut Pro X it bodes very VERY badly for Logic Pro X. And If anyone from Apple is reading this and they have seen that the development of Logic Pro X makes it look and feel a bit like a shiny version of Garage Band Pro, as far as I’m concerned it will mark the absolute the end of the Mac as a pro platform. And I’d ask Apple to remember that it is the pro-user community that have been singing your praises longest, and whilst there is obviously much more dough is selling iPods to housewives we are your core user base and would like to be treated with a little more respect and sympathy.

Oh, and if anyone hears of any device for sale on this planet that has a Thunderbolt interface anywhere on it, please do let Apple know. Because it’s all starting to look a bit BetaMax and it’s only been out since February.

Edited by Paul Farrer (07/09/11 07:33 PM)

Im pretty sure most of these points got covered in Mac Mini & Lion threads already.

But it isn't new that Macs won't accept an OS which is older than which they were supplied with. At least not in my 15+ years experience with them. So this isn't any different.
However, there actually are some hacks to get SL onto a new Mac Mini. But results are mixed. So personally, I wouldn't bother.

As for Thunderbolt. It's still early days. Do you remember how many USB peripherals were around when USB first came out? It wasn't so many either.. The Thunderbolt equipped Apple LCD looks nice though, and gives you additional USB and Firewire ports to boot..

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Paul

None of this stuff is new - as always, a bit of research before purchasing, rather than hoping everything is all going to be rosy helps make a more informed decision.

Buying brand new stuff with Apple always kinda forces you to move forward and lose backwards compatibility to varying degrees - something it's affects an individual more than others depending on the variables. I think most software is ok on Lion, you might have a few things that might give you problems, but again some research would inform you on how much of an affect that will have with your system.

It is what it is... :shrugs:

Probably the main reason I haven't gone Lion is there are still a few PPC things I like to have around (eg SoundDiver) which I'd lose by going Lion, and I'll probably keep a machine capable of running that stuff for the forseeable future, even if I upgrade machines in the meantime. More problematic for me is that I'll lose my UAD stuff and all my UAD software investments which is a far bigger problem (I refuse now to rebuy the same (fairly pricey) UAD DSP four times in a row just to keep running the plugins I paid for, I've had enough. Love the plugins, hate the hardware tax to keep my software investment running)

I see what you did with the thread title, there...

Paul, you need to open Logic in 32 bit mode first so it can scan all your plugs, and then when you open in 64 bit mode it will have a '32 bit' menu in the plugin dropdowns for you to run all of them via the bit bridge..

Select the Logic app and hit apple-i to get the info, you'll see a checkbox to select 32 bit mode or not.

Cheers!

Paul

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paul-thomson.com

Yes I was aware of all these points before before I bought the Mac, but like the stubborn bastard I am I wanted to throw myself at the problem to see how much grief it gave me. I suppose my big problem is that while the hardware is really very nice indeed, and there's nothing drastically wrong with Lion unto itself I just felt like in all my years of buying and setting up complex studio systems on Macs that this version of the OS in connection with this hardware seemed strangely and annoyingly inflexible for the professional Logic user. And HAVING to bin some much loved plug-ins simply due to corporate inflexibility makes me angry.

Agreed. Lion offers nothing drastically new but cuts out functions that many have got used to and love, like Spaces. Removing Rosetta was a truly mean thing to do - Apple must know that some pros still rely on older software, for a number of reasons (personally, I'm not going to re-buy Photoshop to be compatible, and I still use AppleWorks for writing and drawing).

As ever, some audio plug-ins aren't compatible with the new OS either, and they may never be.

I bought Lion, tried it out - and forgot about it. Frankly, it sucks. Installing it on my machines would be nothing but a downgrade from Snow Leopard.

Confused. I see the situation for PPC *apps* (e.g SoundDiver as Desmond mentions).

But I wasn't aware current Logic running on an Intel Mac could run PPC *plugins* at all.

So how come Lion is taking away PPC plugins ? Is this plugins that run via some sort of PPC plugin bridge type hack ?

It's not just that PPC plug ins are a no-no it's that often their installers or authenticators have PCC heritage and as such won't work. Steinberg virtual guitarist 2 is a terrific plug-in that I often use, and ironically the plug in works fine in Lion, however there is a tiny extra bit of software you need to run after it has installed which tells the plug in where the sound data is on your hard drive and that is PCC so it won't work. And of course there are no updates for this anywhere.
So for me the question is, would Lion have been 50% more terrible, slower and awful if they had kept PCC support? I seriously doubt it, as Snow Leopard running on Logic 9 is the most stable and powerful computer music system I have ever run since the Atari 1040st in the late 80s.
So to me it is definitely a case of 1 step forward, 2 steps back. And it all seems so pointless.

Quote Paul Farrer:

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It's not just that PPC plug ins are a no-no it's that often their installers or authenticators have PCC heritage and as such won't work. Steinberg virtual guitarist 2 is a terrific plug-in that I often use, and ironically the plug in works fine in Lion, however there is a tiny extra bit of software you need to run after it has installed which tells the plug in where the sound data is on your hard drive and that is PCC so it won't work.

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Ah right thanks - so Steinberg were arsed to update the plugin itself to Intel (or "fat" PPC+Intel) but could not be arsed to update the needed extra bit of installer software

Quote:

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So for me the question is, would Lion have been 50% more terrible, slower and awful if they had kept PCC support

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I dunno. I guess they have to ditch it at some point.

Can just as easily blame Steinberg, who (in my experience, and to put it politely) have not exactly been good at supporting things they brought out more than a few femtoseconds ago...

In this case, I bet Steinberg could have fixed the installer with very little effort. Compare that against Apple potentially continuing to keep OSX 50% more terrible, for everyone.

Quote chris...:

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Confused. I see the situation for PPC *apps* (e.g SoundDiver as Desmond mentions).

But I wasn't aware current Logic running on an Intel Mac could run PPC *plugins* at all.

So how come Lion is taking away PPC plugins ? Is this plugins that run via some sort of PPC plugin bridge type hack ?

---

The issue for a lot of plugs, and apps(most are universal binary ) are the installers, a large number of them use the PACE installer that requires Rossetta to work.

I installed lion on an external drive that contained a clone of my current install, 98% of my apps and plugs worked.

Lost some printer utilities, and had to update some plugs.

Lion can wait, for now, but I do take it out for a spin every now and then.



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G-Dub
Studio G-fx 15inch quad-core i7 Macbook Pro Logic913

Edited by G-Doubleyou (08/09/11 02:03 PM)

Quote Paul Farrer:

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Oh, and if anyone hears of any device for sale on this planet that has a Thunderbolt interface anywhere on it, please do let Apple know. Because it’s all starting to look a bit BetaMax and it’s only been out since February.

---

Interesting comments Paul.

This might be something to help make good use of TB ports:

http://www.magma.com/thunderbolt.asp

Sonnet have a single slot version on the horizon.

I,ve got logic pro with lion, some of my abbey road plug ins are waiting to be up dated but I,ll wait....I have to say though with all the ranting and raving and twoing and throwing about PC/MAC DAW,s, the Roland VS2480CD, that I own, out shines them all....it,s not perfect but it never crashes...I don,t have to update it...it does all that I want it to do as a musician...it,s just like the old days without the tape hiss and mechanical failures!...Paul, do you remember those days?...it works!

I agree it works. It's fast it's stable and both hardware and software are impressive. And allow us all to work and communicate incredibly efficiently. I've written many times how wonderful this digital/portable world is and what benefits it brings us.
What gets me is the really unfathomable decisions made by companies like Apple. The Power PC Mac Pro was discontinued in August 2006. And five years later it, and any software written for it is considered to be so obsolete that their new products won't run them.
Five years is not a long time and I don't like the idea that, as far as Apple are saying, a major investment in a big piece of kit like a Mac Pro should be seen as a disposable short term thing.
John Cleese said the big problem with the world is that everyone wants to create and no-one wants to maintain. And Apple appear to be saying 'ignore all those investments you made with us over the years, because everything older than five years is worthless and should be replaced.'

And from the environmental point of view (if nothing else) that's irresponsible.

Quote Paul Farrer:

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And five years later it, and any software written for it is considered to be so obsolete that their new products won't run them.
Five years is not a long time and I don't like the idea that, as far as Apple are saying, a major investment in a big piece of kit like a Mac Pro should be seen as a disposable short term thing.

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Paul: whilst I certainly understand the reasons you have brought up, I beg to disagree with the above. Five years is quite a long time in the Information Technology (and electronic) world. Whilst the decision to stop supporting the PowerPC platform is an unfortunate one that will undoubtly affect a lot of users, unfortunate choices like this one are sometimes necessary in order to keep developing the platform and the OS.

Five years is generally considered to be the economic life-span of IT equipment. Heck, at my daytime job, the manufacturer of our servers and computers stipulates in its service contract it keeps parts on stock for a period of three years, and after that, it cannot guarantee whether the equipment is even repairable. I'm afraid computers are not your typical power amps or monitor speakers which happen to keep going for years and years without the need for software or firmware updates.

The average consumer (which of course doesn't exist, but which is what companies like Apple design and manufacture their products for) want shiny features and ease of use, and at one time, the developments cause issues with older versions of their products. There wouldn't be any progress without impopular measures like this.

Cheers,
Frank

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Imagination is more important than knowledge - A. Einstein

Quote Frank Eleveld:

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There wouldn't be any progress without impopular measures like this.

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Nail<->head.

For what it's worth I complete agree with you Paul. I mentioned on a thread about a month ago that I was fuming that my 5-year old MacPro was now considered obsolete. I don't mean old, I mean obsolete (won't run the latest OS so therefore won't run the latest software, updates and before very long won't run the latest versions of Safari with security fixes etc). All the brain washed followers basically said roll with it and chuck it out! If I wanted a disposable computer I would go out and buy the cheapest PC from somewhere like Dixons and quite happily bin it and buy something new every 3-4 years. I don't see investing around £2K on a 'disposable' Mac as an investment when they have that sort of shelf life. Macs used to be an investment.

I have bought (many) Macs in the past because of the long term reliability and support. I think they are getting greedy on the assumption that as people regularly upgrade their iPods and iPhones, professionals will happily upgrade their MacPro's etc just as often. The only way forward for me at the moment is to not update anything and try not to read reviews about new software that I simply can't have because it won't run on my ancient MacPro Quad! (I have already seen software specs requiring Lion).

As a business I can't blame them for trying to fleece as much cash from people as possible while they still can and before they become unfashionable again (c'mon it's only a matter of time before kids don't want iPods because that's what they're parents have)! I just think people are starting to see through it. This is even before Logic X or whatever is inevitably announced.

If Apple where such a forward thinking company they would be able to release products that simply worked without hassle. Oh that's right they used to do that didn't they!

I agree that the world needs to progress, but people with expensive kit being told they're 5-year old equipment is now considered too out of date to support is a bit much. I suppose if we're all daft enough to go along with it then they'll carry on.

(I went on my friends PC the other which was running Windows 7 and you know it actually seemed rather nice. Although I never admitted it at the time! I still shudder when I hear the old Windows start up sound but I may just go back and have another look - just out of curiosity you understand)!!!

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I met a strange lady, she made me nervous; she took me in and gave me breakfast

Quote Big Kev:

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For what it's worth I complete agree with you Paul. I mentioned on a thread about a month ago that I was fuming that my 5-year old MacPro was now considered obsolete. I don't mean old, I mean obsolete (won't run the latest OS so therefore won't run the latest software, updates and before very long won't run the latest versions of Safari with security fixes etc). All the brain washed followers basically said roll with it and chuck it out! If I wanted a disposable computer I would go out and buy the cheapest PC from somewhere like Dixons and quite happily bin it and buy something new every 3-4 years. I don't see investing around £2K on a 'disposable' Mac as an investment when they have that sort of shelf life. Macs used to be an investment.

I have bought (many) Macs in the past because of the long term reliability and support. I think they are getting greedy on the assumption that as people regularly upgrade their iPods and iPhones, professionals will happily upgrade their MacPro's etc just as often. The only way forward for me at the moment is to not update anything and try not to read reviews about new software that I simply can't have because it won't run on my ancient MacPro Quad! (I have already seen software specs requiring Lion).

As a business I can't blame them for trying to fleece as much cash from people as possible while they still can and before they become unfashionable again (c'mon it's only a matter of time before kids don't want iPods because that's what they're parents have)! I just think people are starting to see through it. This is even before Logic X or whatever is inevitably announced.

If Apple where such a forward thinking company they would be able to release products that simply worked without hassle. Oh that's right they used to do that didn't they!

I agree that the world needs to progress, but people with expensive kit being told they're 5-year old equipment is now considered too out of date to support is a bit much. I suppose if we're all daft enough to go along with it then they'll carry on.

(I went on my friends PC the other which was running Windows 7 and you know it actually seemed rather nice. Although I never admitted it at the time! I still shudder when I hear the old Windows start up sound but I may just go back and have another look - just out of curiosity you understand)!!!

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Sorry but its just not true. 5 years is a hell of a long time to have a computer. Apple discontinue OS updates because of hardware changes. They don't do it randomly, but because they need to upgrade their hardware to continue to progress.

It is not realistic to expect Apple to continue to code for PowerPC after all this time. You may not like it, but that's the way it is.

I think the OP sum's up my feelings about Apple 2011.

I own an iMac (SL), iPad 2, iPod touch and even an iPhone .... I love the whole life style thing Apple offers - I use it as my creative and office nerve centre running Logic Pro as my musical sketch pad.

But much as I love OSX, I just can't afford the level of redundancy Apple expects me to accept.

There is no question that PC/Windows allows the user to lasso a much larger vintage of software and hardware within any given system.

So when I came to set up my new main rig, I built a PC with a motherboard that allowed me to install my two 7 years old UAD-1 cards an 8 year old RME host card plus new cards like the UAD-2 Quad and a a whole host of VI's and Plugins spanning almost 10 years!!

This all runs like a dream with Cubase 6 on Windows 7 64bit. 100% rock solid. Personally I think that's mighty impressive.

I looked at a new Mac Pro, and I'm sure the new SB versions will be wonderful, but even as a pro, I just can't justify this constant "just buy me again" philosophy at Apple.

And for the record, I'm not that keen on Windows as an OS, but it sure as heck makes excellent economic sense.

tf

Whilst I sympathise with the people owning PPC machines (and I'm one of them, so I was affected by this) - the reason Apple switching was that Freescale could simply no longer produce silicon with the level of performance that the rest of the industry (Intel/AMD) would achieving.

So, do we stick with PPC and have increasingly slower machines compared to the PC crowd, or bite the bullet and go through the pain of a transition? (which is painful for everyone, Apple and consumers alike).

So, they have retained PPC software support for some years after they ceased selling *any* PPC products, but sooner or later there comes a point where legacy support holds you back from doing newer, cooler things with newer architectures, which need to be done to support the new hardware coming down the pipe (eg full 64-bit support).

Now, admittedly, Apple are far quicker to go "Ah well, fudge 'em, kill it and move on" because they aspire to do better, whereas someone like Microsoft are the other way around - they are so handcuffed by their legacy users that they are almost paralysed to move forward in case of breaking something and pissing off their userbase. Apple willingly will piss of it's userbase, and then dangle new shinies in front of their faces knowing they'll probably get all "Want!" eventually.

It's the way Apple are, and have been for some time now - it's not like people don't know this.

You either buy into it, or you don't, and occasionally you get bitten by it, depending on various circumstances. It's annoying when it happens and it affects you, but it's the way it is. :shrugs: As John Gruber said (paraphrased), other companies are often afraid of taking risks and trying something new, whereas Apple are afraid of stagnation and *not* taking risks and trying something new. And that's what biting the Apple means to anymore more than the casual user.

Interesting what you just said Desmond, but can I ask you about an earlier post you made on this thread?

Quote desmond:

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More problematic for me is that I'll lose my UAD stuff and all my UAD software investments which is a far bigger problem (I refuse now to rebuy the same (fairly pricey) UAD DSP four times in a row just to keep running the plugins I paid for, I've had enough. Love the plugins, hate the hardware tax to keep my software investment running)

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I don't understand the "Four timesin a row ". (And I can't find anything on the website about this.) Doesn't even UAD2 work with Lion?

Marcus

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You live. You learn.

Edited by MarcusH (09/09/11 01:49 PM)

Quote MarcusH:

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Doesn't even UAD2 work with Lion?

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Sure it does.

Quote MarcusH:

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I don't understand the "Four timesin a row ". (And I can't find anything on the website about this.)

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It just relates to my situation. I've written about this elsewhere, and don't want to threadjack, but basically, I bought into the UAD platform with a UAD1 PCI card, and invested into a lot of the plugins (which I dearly love). Then I moved to a Mac Laptop system, and thus could no longer use the plugins I bought (there was no way to use the UAD1 PCI with a laptop).

Then they released the UAD Xpander, so I rebought the same UAD1 DSP in a new form, to be able to use my UAD plugins again. Then, as they phased out UAD1 plugin support and brought in the UAD2, I rebought UAD DSP again in the form of a UAD2 Solo/Laptop, which I'm currently using. When I buy my next computer, it will no longer have expresscard slots, and thus once again I will lose my UAD plugins unless I *again* rebuy UAD DSP for the fourth time in the form of a UAD2 Satellite. In short, as I upgrade my computing hardware, I've been pretty much forced into also upgrading UAD DSP in order to continue using the plugin licenses I bought (and UAD plugins are no longer regarded as "affordable" as they once were).

So, come the next computer, which isn't far away, I've already made the decision to not spend *another* grand just to be able to continue to use my UAD plugins, despite loving them, and will be transitioning away from the platform.

I think we are in interesting times. I think (especially given that this is the Mac Music forum) that we all love Apple dearly here. I use Final Cut Pro, Motion, Logic day in and day out at work and DP at home. I have a fantastically stable system which does enable music making with easy. (although have had horrendous problems with Presonus Drivers!!!! Arrrrghhhh!)

BUT and for me it is a big BUT.....when running a business you have to start making economic decisions, and in the past I think paying the extra for a stress free life with Apple was certainly worth it. BUT...times are certainly a changing, work is becoming much harder to source, rates are going down, and I have to start looking at cost savings. I am in a fortunate position as I also get to work with Adobe products and actually teach Premiere, after effect etc (in the video world) so I can switch without having to retrain...so a PC with windows 7 is starting to looks like a sensible 'economic' business decision. At the end of the day, they are just tools!

Of course Apple Mac's hold value, you get at least 3-4 years out of them, but with the FCP X fiasco, and as Paul mentioned the possibility of loosing support for plug-ins which you have brought not working in the future....well it makes you (well me!) think!!

The MacMini certainly is an economical choice as well.....interesting times!!

Erm sorry for the ramble, not sure I am making sense....but hey it's Friday!

Neil

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Neil S. Bruce - www.spencerbruce.com

Quote desmond:

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So, come the next computer, which isn't far away, I've already made the decision to not spend *another* grand just to be able to continue to use my UAD plugins, despite loving them, and will be transitioning away from the platform.

---

Mmm! I see what you mean. Bloody annoying! A couple of years ago I remember Steve Hill saying here that "My experience of UAD is it's the gift that keeps on giving. Registered users are given vouchers and discounts against more plug-ins every few weeks."

I'm sure that was true then, but now UAD seems like "the liability that keeps on taking".

Anyway sorry to go off-thread. Back to the original OP's points, I'm reminded of the saying, regarding Macs, that: The issue isn't what Macs can or cannot do - the issue is what Apple will or will not permit you to do.

I'm sure that it's hardwired into their corporate culture that they have to be this arrogate to compete - but as everyone outside the Apple village knows, that just ain't true.

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You live. You learn.

I'm always bemused at the irrational mindset that most people have towards their computers, which is completely at odds with every other purchase they might nmake for their audio hobby (or almost anything else, actually).

If you buy an analogue mixing console, or a preamp, you do so because it does what you need it to do, and it will carry on doing that for a reasonable period of time after which it will fail or no longer meet your needs. No one expects to be able to do something more, or different, with the thing three years after purchase. It's just a tool that does a specific job and that's all there is to it.

And yet, when it comes to computers, people seem to expect it to do more over time just because of 'software updates' --even if those updates don't apply to the product they own! They seem to forget that they bought it to do a specific job, which it did and still does. Instead, they get upset when their three-year old technology isn't compatible with the latest technology.

If I had bought the original Jag XF with a 4.2 supercharged V8, I wouldn't expect to be able to install the latest 5.0 engine just because Jag has upgraded the latest version of the flagship car!

The same is true of the computer. Buy one that does what you need it to do. Use it. If it fails or no longer does what you need it to do, buy a new one. If upgrades come along that suit your original machine, that's a bonus, but that's all it is.

At the end of the day, the computer is just a tool to do a specific job. If the job chanegs you might need a new tool. If it doesn't, stop trying to change the shape of the tool!

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote MarcusH:

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A couple of years ago I remember Steve Hill saying here that "My experience of UAD is it's the gift that keeps on giving. Registered users are given vouchers and discounts against more plug-ins every few weeks."

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Sure, but today's UA are a lot more "slick corporate" than the old "your awesome pals that want to give you awesome tools" UA of a few years ago.

Quote MarcusH:

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I'm sure that was true then, but now UAD seems like "the liability that keeps on taking".

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Not really, their products are great, and my situation is particularly unfortunate - it's not UA's fault I want to go to a laptop system, for example, which gives me problems. But I can no longer spend $350 investing in an awesome plugin tool if that investment times out on a computer hardware change requiring me to inject another grand just to use the plugins I bought. At $50-$100 a plugin, it's probably justifiable to keep paying for the hardware, but when typical UA plugins are now $350 and pricey compared to native alternatives, adding in the cost of the cards themselves and they start pricing people out of the market. No complaints about the products, they are almost uniformly excellent, and I do like UA as a company - but I just can't do it anymore.

Quote MarcusH:

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I'm sure that it's hardwired into their corporate culture that they have to be this arrogate to compete - but as everyone outside the Apple village knows, that just ain't true.

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Apple are Apple, they make what they want to make, and a lot of the time, it is pretty good. It doesn't mean we have to like every decision or direction they take - after all, like most corporations, they are in it for what they can get, not the best interests of their users...

Progress is good. Progress drives things forward but....

IBM chips have been used in Macs for a very long time. Apple have sold it to their customers and third party developers have supported it. How many macs are there globally that still in use PPC software? Quite a few. So for Apple to kill support for that format less than 5 years after they sold their last machine, with no obvious benefit to the OS is just needlessly mean. Let's remember we are talking about professional users here, not just people with iTunes libraries to update. What if you need to call up a song file or video editing session from 5 years ago? To a professional that kind of thing happens all the time and I'm surely not alone in wondering how much of my mac setup will simply be un-available to me in the new Lion world. How does that inspire professional customer confidence?

Let's carry the argument to the next stage. Apple announce that with MP3s being way more popular, smaller and more profitable to them than any other format, OS 10.8 will drop support for WAVs and AIFFs. Why not? Seems like a no-brainer to me. Are we going all going to just shrug and accept that as the price of progress as well?
Once again, I love Apple as a company and what they've given to the world is amazing, but to see such a smart giant dip its toes into the world of mass/appeal dumbing down is worrying to say the least.

Oh wow! Fascinating topic but in my timezone it's Friday night and I'm going out to dinner with my wife. So forgive brevity but:

• Hugh yes you're right but the problem is that a 1960s U87 still works - but old computers don't

• Desmond - When you say Apple are Apple - that was exactly what I was complaining about. Indeed I can't change it - but I can criticise it. And let's be clear - organisations that listen to their customers' needs last longer than those that don't.

• Paul - yes basically you're right - though I might quibble the detail,

Over and out (for tonight)

Enjoy your Friday(s)!

M

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You live. You learn.

Quote Paul Farrer:

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I love Apple as a company and what they've given to the world is amazing, but to see such a smart giant dip its toes into the world of mass/appeal dumbing down is worrying to say the least.

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Apple hasn't given anything to the world. They've sold it at exhorbitant prices. Nothing wrong with that, but let's not turn them into saints, underservedly, eh?

I agree that removing backwards compatibility is inevitably frustrating to a lot of users. But Apple's reputation is based heavily on its very strict control of hardware and software, minimising the possible combinations to an extremely small number of variations, and allowing them to be thoroughly tested and thus highly reliable (although definitely not 100% reliable, despite the claims of so many fanatics).

Maintaining backwards compatibility with obsolete hardware or OS features expands the amount of testing required and increases the likelihood of unreliability exponentially. Why would Apple want to risk its reputation and restrict development of new technologies just to satisfy a relatively small part of its established market?

It is amusing, though, that I am still able to run the an old Win 95 and several XP programs that I find useful and have never bothered to update (as well as an old DOS program) on my current MS operating system quite happily. Tee hee.

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote MarcusH:

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• Hugh yes you're right but the problem is that a 1960s U87 still works - but old computers don't

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Really? My previous generation PC is still providing a stirling service and it's seven years old now. It's underpowered and slow compared to my current office machine, but as a host for SADiE hardware it's doing the same job now, and just as well, as when I bought it. It will die one day, and then I'll replace it with something more modern and, probably more capable, just as I would with any other device.

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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Really? My previous generation PC is still providing a stirling service and it's seven years old now

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Wife delayed so - just one last comment - LA2s and Neves and Neumans stuff last for decades, whereas the best computers only last a few years.

Sorry got to go

M

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You live. You learn.

Correction...
There is no reason why computers can't last for a very long time. But the relentless drive of power hungry software drives the hardware forward. And I'm happy to accept this as the cost of doing business. But when time limits are put on the hardware and software of less than 5 years DEMANDING that you move forward, that makes me angry.

Quote MarcusH:

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LA2s and Neves and Neumans stuff last for decades, whereas the best computers only last a few years.

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But that's my point. Do they? Is there fundamentally anything about them that makes them give up and die after a few years? That's not my experience.

I built a computer to run SADiE with a Radia DSP card about a decade ago. When I upgraded my system I loaned that machine to a collague. He's just returned it to me as he's now upgraded to something else, but it's still going strong, running windows 98 and working perfectly as a SADiE host. I can't plug the latest UAD2 card into it, and it would be rubbish running Reaper... but that's not what it was bought to do either.

Some may feel the need to change their computer after a few years because it's no longer 'up to date', but that's not the same thing as saying it a computer will only last a few years.

When it comes to a studio computer surely you buy it to perform a certain set of functions at that time. And it will continue to serve those functions until some part of the computer dies -- be it the PSU, or the hard drive or whatever.

The fact that it may not be able to perform new functions associated with the latest technology or software isn't relevant is it? No one buys something in the hope that it will do something different in five years time!

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote Paul Farrer:

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...the relentless drive of power hungry software drives the hardware forward. And I'm happy to accept this as the cost of doing business.

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Absolutely. I agree completely.

Quote:

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But when time limits are put on the hardware and software of less than 5 years DEMANDING that you move forward, that makes me angry.

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Why is it demanding that you move forward? Your current software still allows you to create music just as it always did. If you want to expand your facilities you may need to change your tools. It has always been that way.

If you want to use more powerful software, is it not reasonable to expect you to buy more powerful hardware to support it?

The computer you bought previously still does what you bought it to do. It is surely unreasonable to expect it to do something now that it wasn't planned to cater for at the time you bought it?

I still don't really know where this mindset comes from that expects something purchased last year to work with something invented next year. Nothing else works that way.

I bought my plasma TV to watch the Freeview channels. It still does that very well. However, when Freesat was launched I didn't get grumpy because my TV couldn't access those channels. I didn't buy it to do that. If I want to watch FreeSat channels I'll need to buy a new TV, and I think that's fair enough.

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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Quote Paul Farrer:

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...the relentless drive of power hungry software drives the hardware forward. And I'm happy to accept this as the cost of doing business.

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Absolutely. I agree completely.

Quote:

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But when time limits are put on the hardware and software of less than 5 years DEMANDING that you move forward, that makes me angry.

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Why is it demanding that you move forward? Your current software still allows you to create music just as it always did. If you want to expand your facilities you may need to change your tools. It has always been that way.

If you want to use more powerful software, is it not reasonable to expect you to buy more powerful hardware to support it?

The computer you bought previously still does what you bought it to do. It is surely unreasonable to expect it to do something now that it wasn't planned to cater for at the time you bought it?

I still don't really know where this mindset comes from that expects something purchased last year to work with something invented next year. Nothing else works that way.

I bought my plasma TV to watch the Freeview channels. It still does that very well. However, when Freesat was launched I didn't get grumpy because my TV couldn't access those channels. I didn't buy it to do that. If I want to watch FreeSat channels I'll need to buy a new TV, and I think that's fair enough.

hugh

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You mean I won't be able to watch 3D movies on my HD telly! nowai!!!

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SOS Web Editor, Support & Social Media
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Hugh ''The computer you bought previously still does what you bought it to do. It is surely unreasonable to expect it to do something now that it wasn't planned to cater for at the time you bought it? ''

It's the exact opposite of that argument. I'm happy with the new hardware I bough doing a similar or perhaps slightly faster version of what it always did. What I object to is the fact that my old (4 years old) computer died, and what I replace it with will NOT ALLOW me to do the same job. I must accept the non-function of any number of my software programmes as the cost of moving to a newer machine.

Quote Paul Farrer:

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What I object to is the fact that my old (4 years old) computer died, and what I replace it with will NOT ALLOW me to do the same job.

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I appreciate that. The thread has diverged into debating both sides of the coin and I've been contributing to both sides!

As I said earlier, I agree it's a huge frustration, but I think it's part of the price to pay for Apple's legendary stability. From the company's point of view, maintaining extensive backwards compatibility for both hardware and software is likely to degrade future reliability (and limit ongoing sales of updated software). It doesn't surprise me that you find yourself in the position you have.

Conversely, Microsofts history of maintaining pretty extensive backwards compatibility for hardware and software has casued extensive reliability issues...

You pays yer money and takes yer choice...

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote Paul Farrer:

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How many macs are there globally that still in use PPC software? Quite a few. So for Apple to kill support for that format less than 5 years after they sold their last machine, with no obvious benefit to the OS is just needlessly mean.

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Apple stopping support doesn't mean those computers/programs suddenly stop working.
I use a MacPro now, but I also fired up my 7600 Powermac 2 weeks ago, it still runs Cubase, I still can make music on it.
Support for that OS (9 I think) and that version of Cubase (VST!) stopped a long, long time ago.
Yes, I fell for the shiny new MacPro and enjoy making music on it with all the new bells and whistles, but if Logic 9 and Cubase 6 (my current DAWs) were dropped from production tomorrow, and even if Apple decided not to make computers anymore, my MacPro will still allow me to make music.
I see your point on the backwards compatibility argument- my solution was to keep my old 7600 and export stuff out in a format that the MacPro will cope with. Not sure if that type of thing would work for you.

EDIT>>
Sorry Paul, just seen this...

Quote Paul Farrer:

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What I object to is the fact that my old (4 years old) computer died, and what I replace it with will NOT ALLOW me to do the same job.

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That's a pain, only 4 years old. Don't suppose they are cheap enough 2nd hand to just replace it with similar vintage?


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Cubase, guitars.

Edited by Kwackman (09/09/11 04:32 PM)

Thanks for the tips.

But Lion not running any PPC programmes on a computer that can run Snow Leopard perfectly but has been chipped to forbid it, is about as firm an indication of 'not supporting' as I can imagine. Maybe the mac-mini is not considered 'pro' enough to bother with backwards compatibility (and that's not an entirely unreasonable argument) but the acid test for me will be the next generation of Mac Pros. If they are Lion only, and won't boot off Snow Leopard disks then as far as I'm concerned that is Apple hating its pro customers. Plain and simple.

Maybe there are technical reasons why it's not possible, or at least cost prohibitive, to keep PPC support alive in Lion. It could be that various underpinning architectures would require an extra development effort making it not cost effective to support.

Or it could be that supporting PPC meant that the software couldn't be architected to make full use of more modern hardware (annoying people with recent machines where their machines were not being exploited properly). Swings and roundabouts.

If you really don't want to move forward, perhaps you'd be better off with a like for like second hand replacement machine - shouldn't cost the earth as PPC machines are less valuable now they are supported, and it will keep running your current setup for some more years.

Sooner or later though, you'll have to move forward if you want to take advantage of modern software developments, and if you don't gradually move forward now, the pain of making the giant leap forward will probably be greater...

Personally, the increase in power made the transition from PPC to Intel more beneficial to me in the long run - and yes, I did lose some plugins along the way that I liked... but, oh well, it's not the end of the world. We still have it way better than we did when I started, so it seems churlish to complain, sometimes...

Quote Paul Farrer:

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What I object to is the fact that my old (4 years old) computer died, and what I replace it with will NOT ALLOW me to do the same job. I must accept the non-function of any number of my software programmes as the cost of moving to a newer machine.

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(Wiki recons PowerMac G5 discontinued 7th Aug 2006 - five years ago by my (probably wrong) arithmetic).

Considering the system as a whole, if you buy a new computer, you'll need new software too. That is, updating your existing software. Sadly some of it (e.g Virtual Guitarist) is no longer available or supported. But for that I'm afraid I blame the software vendors (e.g Steinberg) at least as much as Apple.