Hi guys,

Im recording a choir and organ next week and have no idea how im gunna mic it up. the organ is directly to the right of the choir.

i have access to rode NT2a (x2), Neumann TLM 103, Soundfield Microphone and a pair of SEa1.

the choir is small mostly women with one man singing bass they are very quiet compared to the organ as there is only about 12 of them

here is a very basic floor plan i drew up really quickly. Any suggestions? Please help! cheers.



http://s226.photobucket.com/albums/dd185/balli_photo/?action=view&curr ent=choirlayoutyeah.jpg

Edited by Tom Ballinger (15/04/12 04:18 PM)

Quote Tom Ballinger:

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Hi guys,

Im recording a choir and organ next week and have no idea how im gunna mic it up. the organ is directly to the right of the choir.

i have access to rode NT2a (x2), Neumann TLM 103, Soundfield Microphone and a pair of SEa1.

the choir is small mostly women with one man singing bass they are very quiet compared to the organ as there is only about 12 of them

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I'm worried about this idea that the choir is "very quiet compared to the organ". The organ is a musical instrument, hopefully controlled by an experienced musician. As well as playing the right notes, his job is to play at an appropriate volume so as to accompany the choir rather than overwhelm it. I'm sure he is competent to do this.

So let the musicians take care of the music! YOUR job is not to correct the balance, but to find mic positions which capture it well.

How many tracks do you have available to record to? Is this a set-up purely for the recording, or are you capturing an occasion? Will you be able to use up a control room where you can set up proper monitoring?

I'm with the Wombat here.

I was once a cathedral chorister (back in the late 60s) and there is (or should be) a natural balance between the organ and quire. Ours (at the time) was a damned good choir and we toured, sang at Windsor castle, etc., and recorded an album for Decca (now long deleted sadly - some lovely choral work on it). But anyway...

It was mostly done with a stereo pair of mics place appropriately. Sometimes, they'd have a mic for decani and another for cantoris mixed with the stereo pair but overall, it was a pretty simple, self-balancing recording.

Not quite the same but my daughter's involved in all sorts of youth orchestras as a violinist and I have made some reasonably decent recordings of their concerts with just a Tascam DR40 on my lap as I sit in the audience. If I could place that better (on a stand behind or in front of the conductor, perhaps), I am confident I could make decent recordings. Not Deutsche Grammophon perhaps but pretty reasonable, maybe/probably even releasable.

I fear you're worrying a bit too much about this but if you have genuine concerns, is there a way you could organise a quick run through with the choir and organist aforehand to practice getting some levels and mic placement, balance, etc.?

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Yes, a run-through might help. If you could do test recordings of a rehearsal w/ organ that would be best. If there's an issue with the organist blasting out the choir then you can flag it to the conductor discreetly before the session. I recorded a choir with organ last week - ran separate mics for the organ and spot mics for the soloists - multicores everywhere. Turned out the organ and the soloists sounded better on the main mic array (a well-positioned M-S pair and an ORTF) in the end. Go figure!

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It's the most devastating moment in a young mans life, when he quite reasonably says to himself, "I shall never play The Dane!"

This performance is purely just for recording there will be no audience, but I only have an hour with the choir unfortunately. I have 8 channels to work with. I was thinking recording the B format on the soundfield to mess around with it in post production but where to position it? I've not enough time to measure the critical distance unfortunately.

Thank you for the replies guys!

Tom,

I think it's unreasonable to be expected to record this well/properly without some technical rehearsal.

I (and none of use here) understand what this recording is for, exactly. If it's just a 'vanity' recording for the choir's benefit, then don't worry about it too much. But if this is for some kind of release (I dunno - a CD to sell to raise funds, whatever) then, sorry, but you, the recordist, need - have to have - time to set up properly to do a good job.

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Sorry i should have mentioned. This recording is for a 3rd year university project. Unfortunately one hour is the time i have and i guess im gunna have to make the best of a bad situation.

would M/S be a good idea if i have little time? i could then have a bit more control in post production.

I guess my biggest question really is where exactly to place my chosen technique. I know its impossible to really tell from my floor plan but any suggestions? would i need to place the microphones facing the centre of the choir? surly that would be really unbalanced with the organ pulling the whole mix to the right?

My lecturer suggested close micing the choir and placing a stereo pair of mics in the room to pick up the organ and choir but im not too keen on that idea.

Its a very beautiful sounding room i just hope i can do it justice.

Quote Tom Ballinger:

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Its a very beautiful sounding room i just hope i can do it justice.

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And that's your answer! It's rooms where things DON'T sound good that are a problem! Put a stereo pair somewhere where audience would sit, where it sounds good to your ears. If you have spare mics and channels put them other places and experiment in the mix. But probably where it SOUNDS good, will be good.

Haven't I said all this already? :-)

Quote Tom Ballinger:

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i guess im gunna have to make the best of a bad situation.

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As is invariably the case in this biz - winging it and hoping for the best!

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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Quote Tom Ballinger:

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My lecturer suggested close micing the choir and placing a stereo pair of mics in the room to pick up the organ and choir but im not too keen on that idea.

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If this is for a college project, on which you will be graded, is there really any point in disagreeing with your teacher?

It's a very common situation -- most churches are set up this way.

Ideally, you can find a position back in the main body of the church where the organ/choir balance is acceptable all is good! Stick the Soundfield there and press record. The organ sound will wash around the room, albeit with a right of centre base.

By all means use your NT2s and/or TLM to provide some additional spot focus on the choristers to help with diction clarity if required.

Given such a small choir, it might help -- if you can -- to bring the choristers out of the stalls into the main body of the church, as that would allow you to position them to get good stereo imaging and clarity on them, with the organ in a little more distant perspective and more central in your overall stereo image.

Close miking the choristers and organ separately and then rebalancing after the event can be done, obviously, but it wouldn't be my ideal solution.

Organs are generally voiced to sound good to people standing on the ground... yet people insist on mounting mics thirty feet up on tall poles. It can be a useful technique sometimes if you want clean organ sound and no shoe-shuffling as the choir or congregation precesses in and out for BBC R3's Choral Evensong, but other wise, think carefully about what you're trying to capture!

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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Given such a small choir, it might help -- if you can -- to bring the choristers out of the stalls into the main body of the church, as that would allow you to position them to get good stereo imaging and clarity on them, with the organ in a little more distant perspective and more central in your overall stereo image.

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It might help the recording, but it also might sabotage the performance. Assuming this is an established choir, used to performing in this building, they are accostomed to hearing the organ and balancing with it from THOSE positions. It could all fall apart if you move them into an unfamiliar acoustical space. And, for goodness' sake, don't boss them around! They have the skill, they are the product. You're just a tecchie!

I also smell the possibility that it's an ad hoc group consisting of "everyone else on the course". Under-skilled, under-rehearsed and thoroughly uncomitted to the whole project. Good luck!

Quote Exalted Wombat:

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It might help the recording, but it also might sabotage the performance.

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Possible, but highly unlikely in my experience -- but it is something that would need to be judged and discussed with the choirmaster/organiset/lead chorister at the time.

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And, for goodness' sake, don't boss them around! They have the skill, they are the product. You're just a tecchie!

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I don't agree with the attitude implied in the last sentence. 80% of the skill of a recording engineer or producer is in managing the situation through interpersonal skills. Obviously it wouldn't be good to 'boss them around'. However, if you can explain to them how, by relocating slightly, you will be able to achieve a much better recording (assuming that is actually the case), then they will either be happy to help, or explain why such a move is not possible, practical or whatever... and you can negotiate to find a mutually acceptable solution.

This event is set up specifically as a recording spession, after all, and the aim is to achieve the best results possible without the restrictions and compromises imposed by a normal service. think outside the box... You're not 'just a techie' you are the recording engineer/producer responsible for making the recording sound as good as it can possibly be. It's your job to solve technical, practical and musical difficulties in whatever way you can.

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I also smell the possibility that it's an ad hoc group consisting of "everyone else on the course". Under-skilled, under-rehearsed and thoroughly uncomitted to the whole project. Good luck!

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Sounds like the poster is committed -- why else would he be here seeking advice? Underskilled, of course -- he's a student learning the skills! That's the whole point. Under rehearsed? The choir is an existing group and I presume singing familiar material, so probably not.

My advice would be to show initiative and try to get the best results you can -- even if that means persuading your artists to try something a little different. If you only ever copy what others have done you'll never develop your skills or understanding beyond theirs.

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote Exalted Wombat:

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his job is to play at an appropriate volume so as to accompany the choir rather than overwhelm it.

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Out of curiosity, is it possible to play a pipe organ in a church louder or quieter? I presumed that the keys act more like switches to the pipes and do not respond to velocity, but I've never played one, so I have no idea.

http://www.lawtutor.freeserve.co.uk/organ.html

This indicates that there should be a volume pedal, but in the case he mentions, doesn't affect all the stops.

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http://soundcloud.com/richie-royale
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Quote Richie Royale:

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Out of curiosity, is it possible to play a pipe organ in a church louder or quieter?

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Of course! there are two ways, one static and the other dynamic. The static method is by choosing an appropriate 'registration'. The organ tone and volume is determined by the type and combination of pipe ranks being employed. Some 'stops' are quiet and gentle, some are louder and strident, and they may play at different relative pitches. The skill of the organist is to choose a registration of different sets of pipes to create the required tonality and volume.

The second, dynamic method, is that some sets (ranks) of pipes are often built into an enclosed box with louvre shutters that can be opened or closed to control the volume using a 'swell pedal' which is foot-operated. There may well be more than one 'swell box' of this type on larger organs.

A simple church organ with two manuals usually has a main set of organ pipes called the 'great' cna controlled from one keyboard, along with a second set called the Swell, controlled from the other keyboard, enclosed within the swell box.

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I presumed that the keys act more like switches to the pipes and do not respond to velocity, but I've never played one, so I have no idea.

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This is basically the case -- there is no real velocity sensitivity' as in a piano to controol volume -- although experienced organists often claim that organs with 'tracker actions' (direct mechanical linkages between keys and pipe valves) do exhibit a degre of velocity sensitivity because of the direct mechanical control of the valve opening action.

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote Richie Royale:

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Quote Exalted Wombat:

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his job is to play at an appropriate volume so as to accompany the choir rather than overwhelm it.

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Out of curiosity, is it possible to play a pipe organ in a church louder or quieter? I presumed that the keys act more like switches to the pipes and do not respond to velocity, but I've never played one, so I have no idea.

http://www.lawtutor.freeserve.co.uk/organ.html

This indicates that there should be a volume pedal, but in the case he mentions, doesn't affect all the stops.

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A common church organ config will have the organ split into two sets of ranks, the 'great' organ and the 'swell' organ. The swell ranks will all be built into a large box with louvres on the front which are opened and closed by a 'swell' pedal. Which of course controls the volume coming out of the box.

But even the great ranks usually include stops like nice quiet diapason and flageolet. Remember, a lot of sacred music was written specifically for a lone chorister, and organs have evolved to work equally well in that context, as well as accompanying massed choirs singing Handel cantatas.

EDIT: And Hugh types faster than me !

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Edited by MarkOne (16/04/12 12:41 PM)

Thanks for both of your responses. I'll probably never play one, just wondered how they worked.

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http://soundcloud.com/richie-royale
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Thank you for the replies guys!

The choir are well rehearsed. I guess the real reason for asking these questions is because yes i am a student with no experience of recording any kind of classical music at all, Iv done allot of reading on the subject but because its my first time im not entirely confident with my judgment. With only one hour with the choir iv not much time to experiment so i need to be as prepared as possible.

I think im going to put the soundfield at a nice sounding point where the audience would be not too far away though its a very reverberant room. ill spot mic the choir with the two NT2a's and give the only male singer his own mic just to make sure his bass vocals can be heard in the mix. what do you guys think?

I dont like winging things, im the type of guy who reads the entire manual of a piece of equipment before even getting it out of the box. But i guess in this line of work there will always be some degree of winging it.


Cheers!

Tom.

I'd try Hugh's idea of bringing the choir more in front of the organ.
Or array the choir so their backs are to the organ.
and mic to taste with... Soundfield?

Might be worth closer miking the choir ... sE1a co-incident miking, which could be mixed to mono ... you could mix in the two NT2s in Omni at the rear to give some stereo space and reverb. The sound from those should be dissociated enough to mix them in, maybe with some few extra milliseconds of delay and (shh!)... maybe a touch of good artificial reverb.

Then you (after deciding where the choir will be) you will have loads of mix possibilities:

~ Soundfield
~ Close pair stereo (or mono) with
~ Far room mics for reverb. Mono will negate any organ on one side, if you decide you don't want that.
That make 8 channels.
You can try when mixing combinations of mics, as well as tweaking the Soundfield mic's response ... but be careful of imaging problems and combing if mixing mic arrays!

I would ask the choir and The Man to balance themselves, rather than close-mic him. Though maybe he can stand a little closer to the mics. As long as he can see the conductor!

The organ. YOU could decide how it sounds. Why be the same as everybody else (I'm assuming a few will be doing this test?)
There are the plain flutey/tootly sounds, or spice it up with some high fractional stops, or go for a reeedier sound. What about the pedal stops? It all depends on the organ and organist, your inspiration, and how you interact with the musicians.

Does that make any sense? Bit difficult without being there!

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Quote Tom Ballinger:

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With only one hour with the choir iv not much time to experiment so i need to be as prepared as possible.

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Good planning with backup options is the right way to tackle these things. You need to be flexible on the day, obviously, but if you've already throught through a couple of approaches with contigencies in advance it's much easy to come up with a plan b quickly when you need to.

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I think im going to put the soundfield at a nice sounding point where the audience would be not too far away though its a very reverberant room.

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Yes, that makes a lot of sense.

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i'll spot mic the choir with the two NT2a's and give the only male singer his own mic just to make sure his bass vocals can be heard in the mix. what do you guys think?

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Yes... it could work... but Guy's points are worth taking on board. A coincident pair of the SE1s would be guaranteed to be mono compatible and thus increase your options if you need to fake the stereo image after the event becuase of choir position issues. Close miking a single source, such as your bass singer, could help with any balance issues but it will also make him extremely exposed in the mix and any tuning or performance flaws will tend to stand out. By all means record it, but mix with great care!

Rigging some space mics well outside the church's critical distance will give you options for, balancing the dry close mics, opening out the Soundfield if you end up with it closer for best diction, or if you need fake the streo later!

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Thank you so much for the replays everyone! im new to this forum and am very grateful. Ill do my best to help others with my limited student knowledge!

Iv got allot of ideas now i guess ill have to just hope it goes well on the day. Ill let you all know how it goes!


Cheers!

Tom.

We try to help! And post a link when it's done, too. Have fun.

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Quote Tom Ballinger:

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Thank you so much for the replays everyone! im new to this forum and am very grateful. Ill do my best to help others with my limited student knowledge!

Iv got allot of ideas now i guess ill have to just hope it goes well on the day. Ill let you all know how it goes!

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Other musical events must go on in theis room? Sit in the audience for a few of them, holding your trusty Zoom H4 (or whatever). You'll either get a pleasant surprise, or realsie you have a problem.

If you can get this job done with a simple stereo pair (or - heck - use the Soundfield if one's lying around :-) it will save a lot of fussing. Sure, send as many other mics as you have to as many other tracks as you have. Belt-and-braces is good! But if you don't need them in the mix, rejoice!

Don't forget to monitor the recording - all the way through, if only on headphones. Find out about that noisy cable, that bad connection NOW, not when you're mixing. If I were your teacher, and feeling mischievous, I might even nudge my mobile phone right where it could do most harm half-way through! Not fair? It happens in real-life recording situations.

Edited to correct quote box syntax

Edited by Hugh Robjohns (18/04/12 09:35 AM)

Quote Exalted Wombat:

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Other musical events must go on in theis room?

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I managed to get into the church this morning with a musician and some mics Its a solo clarinet. Ill link you to it (in an hour or so) if any of you are interested in what the church sounds like? Would be nice to hear some feedback from you guys on my mix to.

Quote Exalted Wombat:

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If I were your teacher, and feeling mischievous, I might even nudge my mobile phone right where it could do most harm half-way through! Not fair? It happens in real-life recording situations.

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Luckily he wont be there, part of this module is to organise the recording and find musicians ourselves. But i will take on board the advice, i will monitor all the way through.


The date of the choir recording has been moved to next week now so i have a little more time to prepare. Keep the suggestions coming.


Cheers!

Tom.

Ok guys heres a link to the recording i did today in the same church and the same position as the choir will be.

http://soundcloud.com/tommy-guns/st-giles-church-solo-clarinet

Its M/S pair (NeumannTLM 103 (M) and Rode NT2a (s)) this was placed about 3 - 4 feet from the clarinet pointing at the middle of the body of the instrument. Also there is a NT2a around 1 1/2 - 2 meters behind the M/S.

any thoughts?

Cheers!
tom.

Quote Tom Ballinger:

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Ok guys heres a link to the recording i did today in the same church and the same position as the choir will be.

http://soundcloud.com/tommy-guns/st-giles-church-solo-clarinet

Its M/S pair (NeumannTLM 103 (M) and Rode NT2a (s)) this was placed about 3 - 4 feet from the clarinet pointing at the middle of the body of the instrument. Also there is a NT2a around 1 1/2 - 2 meters behind the M/S.

any thoughts?

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I'm getting quite a lot of key-noise from the clarinet. Difficult to be sure on these speakers, but not much stereo field - I'm not hearing the clarinet in the room. All miked a bit close, perhaps?

The room is definitely 'there' listening on headphones and sounds like it will be very forgiving. Background is nice and quiet - no passing trucks or helicopters!
Musician sounds like (s)he knows what they are doing too

Do let us know how it all goes.

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(Well, actually, it probably was)

Quote Tom Ballinger:

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Its M/S pair (NeumannTLM 103 (M) and Rode NT2a (s)) this was placed about 3 - 4 feet from the clarinet pointing at the middle of the body of the instrument. Also there is a NT2a around 1 1/2 - 2 meters behind the M/S.

any thoughts?

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Sounds good to me. I had no problem at all with the clarinet's mechanics, and thought the room 'spread' was quite acceptable. As Folderol has said, the venue sounds quiet and the acoustics are quite benign so I don't think you'll have any real issues.

What was your thinking with the second NT2a and was it used in the mix? If so, that might account for the slightly centre-dominant room sound.

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Lovely room. And I like the breaths and clicks. Nice playing, too.

Tone is nice, though I thought the instrument was a bit undefined position-wise; and a bit to the left in the bottom registers.

Good idea to do this test. Where is the church? Any photos?

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well the second NT2a was to pick up some more room, but i think you may be right about the centred room sound.

I quite like the mechanical noise of it and the breathing, makes it sound real and human.

There is plenty of room to push the side mic up a bit further to make it a bit wider so ill give that ago. I think i was holding back because i do have a habit of piling on the reverb, cant get enough of the stuff!

I did end up pulling out around 2-3 dB between 2 and 5k, because the higher notes were quite harsh. Im pretty sure this is down to the natural harmonics of the instrument not the room.

It is a wooden clarinet, i do love the tone. Apparentley the instrment was made nearly 100 yeas ago.

The church is in Wrexham, North Wales. Its called St Giles. Iv no photos ill take some next week, i think there are a few online if you want to google it. Iv heard people call it one of the 7 wonders of wales. I suppose its quite an impressive building.

Cheers!!

Quote Tom Ballinger:

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well the second NT2a was to pick up some more room, but i think you may be right about the centred room sound.

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Okay -- nothing wrong with a distant pair to allow the option to add 'room', but in a situation like yours it's better if the 'room' you're adding is in stereo, and the mic ideally needs to pick up only the 'room' and not the direct sound -- so it should be placed well beyond the critical distance. I think your 'room' mic might have been a bit too close and, being a single mic, didn't add any stereo space, just altered the centre sound perspective a bit.

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I quite like the mechanical noise of it and the breathing, makes it sound real and human.

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Absolutely -- quite agree. There's obviously an aesthetic and personal preference balance to be found between hearing so much mechanical noise that it intrudes and distracts, and removing it to the extent that the performance loses life and realism.

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I think i was holding back because i do have a habit of piling on the reverb, cant get enough of the stuff!

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Very common problem. My usual advice is to dial in the amount of reverb you think is rght, then back it off by at least 5dB! It's also quite difficult to make that judgement call on headphones unless you have a lot of experience.

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Im pretty sure this is down to the natural harmonics of the instrument not the room.

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Probably not the room, judging by what I heard. Could be the instrument but my guess would be a mic artefact from its presence peak. Next time, before reaching for the EQ, try moving the mic and/or tilting the mic -- you'll find tilting a large diaphragm mic back or forwards a bit tends to take some of the edge off the top end and it may well help. But a flatter mic than the TLM103 might have worked better.

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

http://soundcloud.com/tommy-guns/clarinet-st-giles-new

More side in this now! i pulled it back by 5dB like you said although im on headphones at the moment. And there is no room mic now.

Listening back the harshness was coming from the side NT2a. The TLM103 is pretty flat through 2 - 5k, looking at the NT2a's response its pretty bumpy up there so i just pulled it out of that mic.

Thank you!!!

Tom.

Nice! But for fussy ol' me, the reverb sounds a bit too wide ... though strangely, it sounds wider than it measures.

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Recording done ok so it was even more rushed than i thought it would be because they had allot to rehearse so i just had to hit record and hope for a good full run through of a song. Lots of paper sounds as they had no music stands and didn't know the words. People kept talking at the end not letting the reverb tail finish so iv had to cut it short. A few out of tune bits but hey im not marked on the performance.

In the end i went for the soundfield as an M/S with two flanking Omnis and an ORFT (SE2s) well back past the critical distance.

Sounds rather distant compared to other choral/organ recording iv heard but for the purpose of university i think it came out alright.

With only a 5 day trial of the B-format plugin im no longer able to edit my mix so this it it.

http://soundcloud.com/tommy-guns/st-giles-choir

Criticism encouraged!

Cheers!

Thanks for coming back with this. Under the circumstances a very good recording. As you said at the start the choir is rather quiet compared to the organ. Maybe if they get to have a good listen to this they will adjust their performances - well maybe, maybe not

On phones the stereo width seems rather wide.

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It wasn't me!
(Well, actually, it probably was)

Another annoying habit of mine, making things sound too wide. Any tips on avoiding this? or is it just a matter of leaving the mix for a day or two and coming back to it with fresh ears?

Cheers!!

Tom.

The traditional BBC approach is to use an MS meter. The alternative is to use a Goniometer or audio vectorscope display, or a phase meter at a push.

The MS meter and Goniometer are available in hardware metering products at a price (check out the new DK Technology meters, for example), but software plogins are probably the way to go these days.

I'm a huge fan of Z-plane's PPMulator, available in the basic + version, or with true-peak and Loudness metering in the XL version.

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/nov11/articles/ppmulator.htm

use the BBC-style dual twin PPM display with left-rught on the red/green needles and mid-side onthe white/yellow needles. The Side needle should never be higher than the mid needle, and the bigger the difference between them the narrower the mix.

The freeware Fluxhome Stereo Tool is a brilliant audio vectorscope:

http://www.fluxhome.com/products/freewares/stereotool

A centre mono signal would produce a vertical line, and as the stereo width is increased the image expands into a ball of string. That ball should never be wider than it is tall! Effectively the Mid-axis is vertical and the Side-axis is horizontal.

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

The Flux Stereo Tool seems really handy! it shows that the ball is as wide as it is high all the way through the recording which suggests its a bit wide im guessing?

Would it be a good idea to use the Flux plugin to reduce the width or would it be better to adjust the microphone levels and panning? although i cant do this because iv no iLok for the soundfield plugin.

Thank you so much for your replies again.
I love this forum!

Cheers.

A properly round ball of string indicates a fully wide stereo image which is technically acceptable, but may be aesthetically too wide, depending on the ensemble and musical style.

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote Tom Ballinger:

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http://soundcloud.com/tommy-guns/st-giles-choir

Criticism encouraged!

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OK, here goes!

As people have said, the choir/organ balance isn't wonderful. I think it's a problem with the performance as much as anything. But could you have helped by bringing the choir up in the mix in some sections of the music?

What are the clicking sounds at 1'16", 1'20" and various other places? Seems to be more than just page-turning rustle?

You could have done something about the abrupt cut-off at the end by bringing in some artificial reverb.

What did your teacher say about the result? And the choir and organist? Did they realise how audible their page-turning etc. was? :-)