Hello,
Have a cover band looking to invest $3000-$5000 on a sound system. We play clubs, dance halls, outdoor beach clubs, etc. and need it to thump!

A digital board with saveable pre-sets for our regular venues is a must. Also need at least three monitor mixes and/or capibilities for in-ears. Need a minimum of 8 inputs.

We intend on running 3 mics, 2 guitar heads, 1 bass head, and a Roland TD-12 drum module (2-1/4" inputs)

Looking for advice on what board, speakers, subs, floor monitors, to purchase. We have a trailer in which we carry our gear but portability is still important.

Thanks! :headbang:

Board/mixer wise a Behringer X32 would fit the bill perfectly. I know it is Behringer but from the people/magazines that have had one for review can't really fault it for the price.
Fully digital (with digital multicore available), extremely low latency and with Midas designed preamps.

for more info see: http://www.behringer.com/EN/products/X32.aspx

http://www.behringer.com/assets/X32_WebBrochure.pdf

The x32 may fill the bill (with bells on!) but it will take up about half of your budget and more if you add the digital stage boxes. A presonus 16:4:2 is more modestly priced and does have scene recall - but no flying faders - but those using it do not seem to find this a great problem. This would leave you slightly more for the pa and monitors. On another thread someone was enquiring about an alto mixer that uses an Ipad - this seemed very modestly priced - but don't no whether it has scene save and recall - alto seem to be based in the us (though I think they are the "pro" distributing arm of a chinese based manufacturer) - I think their speakers are also reasonably priced - but no idea what they are like - I think some people here have used their trusonic range and they have just launched a more powerful 'black' series of active speakers.
Or you could go for a second hand desk e.g a ov196 ( or keeping with the behringer theme a ddx3216!)

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Nick

Edited by N.icholas (21/07/12 10:26 PM)

The OP is talking dollars, not pounds. The X32 is retailing for just under $3000 in the US, so that's a big chunk of the budget already.

Is that important that you have a mixer with recall? You've only got 8 inputs.

Scene recall is a great feature in the right circumstances (one night - many bands for instance) but it may not be either necessary or even advisable in your case. If you aren't changing the settings between gigs then all you need is a decent analogue desk. If, as you suggest, you're playing lots of different venues then simple scene recall might not allow you the flexibility you need to cater for different nights in the same venue.

Would an analogue desk and a digital EQ or two (FOH/monitors) be worth considering? Even a simple digital EQ would offer you the capacity to save what works one night so you're at least in the ball park next gig. Sensibly setup auto filters can take some of the load on the night, particularly for monitors.

I notice we haven't even approached your speakers yet. Are you considering (I think you are) putting gtr/bass/kit all through the FOH?

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Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

Thanks for the input thus far guys. Currently we run vocals and the TD-12 module through the PA. Guitars running through Marshal 4x10 half stack each. Bass through GK 4x10 + 115. We sometimes mic the guitar cabs and run through the PA for large venues.

We are currently running a Yamaha EMX512sc through two JBL JRX 115's and one JBL JRX 118 sub.

Our speakers are decent so im thinking we may be able to use them and save $?

I am really interested in recal memory because we have roughly 10 regular venues with varying sound requirements. For example, Saturday night were in a large open club, concrete walls/floors, low celings. Sunday afternoon were at a deck bar outside, facing Clearwater Beach. Always seem to be wasting time trying to zero in a mix.

Anything helps, Thanks.

So is your priority the recallable digital desk and the monitoring?
You need to bear in mind that if you ditch the emx then you will also need pa amp (I suppose you could route through this in the short term).
How much of your budget (max) do you want to allocate to the desk and monitoring (is in ear essential?)?
Do you want new or is secondhand an option?

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Nick

If I understand things right the tops are 8ohms and the sub is 4ohms. How are you hooking this lot up to the amp?

In my experience bigger drivers (15") produce a fuller sound at lower levels but don't have good projection and definition when you push them harder. Counter-intuitively a set of 12" tops coupled with the sub might make for a better overall sound.

It is, of course, possible to feed in ear monitors before the mic signal goes to the desk, allowing aux sends to be used for wedges. That should open up many other amps for you to choose from.

Have you used a mixer with scene recall regularly in the past? I suspect it might not be the 'set and forget' solution it might appear and there might me a lower-tech answer that might suit your purposes better.

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Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

I guess I may be asking too many questions at once here. Please excuse my lack of knoledge, I am but a humble drummer... hehe

1. Our first and primary objective is to upgrade our PA, which we wish to run everything through.

I gather a digital board is the way to go, don't mind dropping a good portion of our budget on one, especially if I can get away with using our existing JBL speakers. AND especially if I can plug my Ipad in an record live material!

My understanding is that scene recall would eliminate the need to zero in a mix each and every time we go to a new venue. This is currently a big time consumer for us. However, I may have the wrong impression as to what scene recall does.

2. Our next objective is to have good on stage monitoring capabilities.

We don't have an issue with how we sound to the audience, however onstage is always an issue.

In ears would be ideal but at this time I think our budget only allows for on stage wedges.

I think you may coming at this from the wrong angle...

I work in a great many different venues and also some on a regular basis. All of the EQing for the room is done through 31-band graphic equalisers and not through the desk channel EQ.

So when I get into the room and am set-up then the first thing to do is to play known material through the desk - with the channel EQ flat and adjust the graphics to get the sound I want.

Translating that into your situation, I'd suggest that the key thing you need is recallable graphic settings. I've just switched to a semi-digital mixer and can save and recall graphic settings for different rooms. (On my mixer you can choose what you want saved in a scene to recall later and what NOT to save.)

As has already been mentioned, one of the smaller Presonus 'StudioLives' - the 16.0.2 or the 16.4.2 - could well be what would meet your requirements.

There is much wisdom to be had on this forum but there are also a variety of individual opinions. Here's my 2000 Drachma worth:

My favourite monitor system as a singer is to have an overall mix in wedges plus just my vocal and acoustic guitar on in ears. Everyone gets what they need in the wedges but I'm not competing for level - no feedback issues.

I do this by linking from my guitar DI into one channel of the IEM transmitter and splitting my vocal mic with an ART Pro Split into the other. It's a bit convoluted but worth it for me.

Digital mixers:

Small quiet gigs are very forgiving because levels are generally low and the room is not being excited as a resonant vessel. As background noise and overall levels rise the room becomes more a part of the system. An empty room will reverberate in a particular way which will change (often dramatically) as the room fills with people. One night you will have 500 people, another night in the same venue you might have 800 more noisy people. Not only will this change the acoustic properties of the space you might also need to turn everything up, exposing peaks in the system which will cause resonances and feedback if they're not acted upon. There is no easy shortcut that I know of.

P.S.
I would agree with Mike's suggestion above that a digital EQ on the FOH masters would offer the most useful solution.

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Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

Edited by shufflebeat (22/07/12 09:46 PM)

Quote shufflebeat:

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Digital mixers:

Small quiet gigs are very forgiving because levels are generally low and the room is not being excited as a resonant vessel. As background noise and overall levels rise the room becomes more a part of the system. An empty room will reverberate in a particular way which will change (often dramatically) as the room fills with people. One night you will have 500 people, another night in the same venue you might have 800 more noisy people. Not only will this change the acoustic properties of the space you might also need to turn everything up, exposing peaks in the system which will cause resonances and feedback if they're not acted upon. There is no easy shortcut that I know of.

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Wise words...

Having stored graphic EQ settings for a specific room is only the starting point. As shufflebeat has pointed out there are many variables that will affect the sound on a particular day - eg audience numbers, temperature, humidity.

That means that in my way of working not only do the EQ settings get tweaked from their stored setting at set-up and soundcheck, but almost invariably during the first couple of songs too.

Incidentally, I'm assuming you have your own sound person who's working your gear during your act. If you haven't, however sophisticated your setup and however sophisticated your store-and-recall then your tuning of the system to the room will always be less than ideal...

Mike's just mentioned my number 1 recommendation - someone else to do sound for you.

And I'm not so convinced about saving settings. Your mics on guitar amps are never going to be in precisely the same position each night; and if you've got manual (not digitally-controlled) input gains then they're not going to be quite the same either. So you'll always have some tweaking to do. And then there's the room.

I think Grab's right on the money about saving setups. This year I wouldn't be buying a digital mixer for your setup, despite the much trumpeted appearance of the Behringer X32; in a year or two, probably, but right now I'd look for a second hand Allen and Heath desk and a notebook to jot down the helpful things. Rather than just saving a setting that might or might not apply to the same room next time, you can make meaningful notes about what you did and why, which will better prepare you for the myriad challenges of doing sound. And it is bloody hard to play and do sound at the same time. You'll agree with that sooner or later. I've been there and got the scars.

I agree with the idea of a smaller StudioLive. Buying a 32 channel mixer when your need 8 inputs just doesn't make sense.

The 16.0.2 has 12XLR inputs, 4 aux sends, the ability to multitrack record and mix from an iPad, with the use of a computer. One of the cheapest computers to add is an older Mac Mini, which can be had for around $350 these days. Saving scenes makes each time you return easier, as you can go with what sounded good last time. You have to set your input gains each time, but if you set then to the same level (-15db) then again, you will be pretty close each time.

Once you multitrack a gig you will wonder how you ever did without this feature.

Your speakers will work, you might want to upgrade in the future. Each monitor feed will need its own power amp channel. So, 4 monitor mixes = 2 power amps.

Good luck!

With an analogue desk, just take a pic of your settings with your phone, instant recall

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Turn it down lads (but only a little bit)

Instant picture, sure. But doing the recall still takes a few minutes to get all the knobs back to where they were, doesn't it?

Quote grab:

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Instant picture, sure. But doing the recall still takes a few minutes to get all the knobs back to where they were, doesn't it?

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There is no 'set and forget' solution.

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Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

Quote shufflebeat:

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Quote grab:

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Instant picture, sure. But doing the recall still takes a few minutes to get all the knobs back to where they were, doesn't it?

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There is no 'set and forget' solution.

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It's a fair cop guv, I was being slightly flippant but I have seen just that done to very good effect by the engineer of the headliners at a multi band gig, they sound checked in the afternoon and he just photographed his setting, took him about 10 mins to reset the desk to his earlier settings while the band got on stage

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Turn it down lads (but only a little bit)

pardon my ignorance here, but it seems that 90% of the issue here is recallable EQ. what if the OP simply bought a decent graphic EQ with memory and put it in the master insert bus of his current mixer? would that get him most of what he wants w/ minimal dosh?

d

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"Patsy had the drug tolerance of Keith Richards and the moral rectitude of Brian Jones." - Dr. Walter Bishop, "Fringe"

Quote dubbmann:

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pardon my ignorance here, but it seems that 90% of the issue here is recallable EQ. what if the OP simply bought a decent graphic EQ with memory and put it in the master insert bus of his current mixer? would that get him most of what he wants w/ minimal dosh?

d

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Hi Dubb,

That's been suggested at least twice by me and alluded to by others. Seems obvious but that usually means I've misunderstood the question.

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Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

OK so Ive discovered the original Yamaha O1V (not O1V96) and it seems to be just what we need. Scene recall, good amount of inputs, can be found on Ebay used for $500-$700. Thoughts?

So from here what do I need to consider next?

How much power will I need for the front speakers and 4 monitor mixes? Size, specs, brand preferences for amps?

EQ's and other necessary rack mounts?

Monitor preferences?

Thank you to everyone for the input. This forum is a AWESOME